So you think its ok to undertake?

[Yung Man]

TonyHetherington said:

Weathereye said:

I'm an IAM Observer and my philosophy when approaching a speed limit lower than than that which currently applies to the section of road I'm on is to decelerate with a view to achieving the new lower limit just before I enter the lower limit area.

However, when approaching a speed limit higher than that which currently applies to the section of road I'm on then I only accelerate up to the new higher limit after I enter the higher limit area.

I'm an observer also, and 100% agree.

Have you any other pearls of wisdom to share with us?, pray tell us what do you do at red traffic lights?.

[TonyHetherington]

Urmmm, what are you looking for?

Don't eat yellow snow?
Don't pick your nose in a fast car because everyone is looking at you?
Don't sing in the car while stopped in front of a bus stop?

[Don]

TonyHetherington said:

Don't sing in the car while stopped in front of a bus stop?

Indeed. And don't forget that in a convertible when you

• sing in a tone deaf manner
• belch from the depths of your gut
• fart loudly

they can hear you.

Especially if they are female. And fit.

[vonhosen]

gdaybruce said:

Something I've wondered about is that undertaking is now so commonplace I'm sure there's an increasing number of drivers who think that since so many drivers do it, it's not only normal but must be legal (or at least, not illegal). It's one thing when someone undertakes, fully aware of the risk they're taking and ready to react if the vehicle ahead pulls across in front of them, but I fear that some people now undertake believing they have right of way and they're ready to get very upset if the vehicle ahead pulls across. I wonder if there are any stats that identify undertaking as a cause of accidents.

It's all part of the growing frustration that comes with more crowded roads, leading to those who lack confidence/awareness (or are just bloody minded) sticking resolutely to their chosen lane, often because they're afraid of getting trapped in lane 1. Meanwhile, those who are impatient and frustrated take to undertaking.

The solution? Apart from less traffic (difficult) I'd like to see a controlled trial of legal undertaking on multi lane roads. The only other alternatives I can see are a combination of driver training (we wish) and better enforcement of driving standards by marked police cars. Otherwise, undertaking will continue to increase and become increasingly "normal".

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all. You may as well become resigned to the next step which will be weaving in & out from lane to lane. It's a slippery slope.

[WhoseGeneration]

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all. You may as well become resigned to the next step which will be weaving in & out from lane to lane. It's a slippery slope.

Hmm, that is what I, so often, observe when I, from time time, venture onto this country's Mway system.
Then I ask myself, where are the guardians of our Road Laws?.
Never in evidence, it would seem, on my travels.
Preach the theory, explain the Law.
Please, you and your colleagues, get out there and enforce it.
Because I am utterly fed up with doing it correctly, while others blatantly don't.

[vonhosen]

WhoseGeneration said:

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all. You may as well become resigned to the next step which will be weaving in & out from lane to lane. It's a slippery slope.

Hmm, that is what I, so often, observe when I, from time time, venture onto this country's Mway system.
Then I ask myself, where are the guardians of our Road Laws?.
Never in evidence, it would seem, on my travels.
Preach the theory, explain the Law.
Please, you and your colleagues, get out there and enforce it.
Because I am utterly fed up with doing it correctly, while others blatantly don't.

Too busy with other stuff most of the time. I'm not a Roads Policing officer & there are less of them getting posted to motorways (with the advent of HATOs).

Edited by vonhosen on Monday 5th November 19:16

[gdaybruce]

WhoseGeneration said:

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all. You may as well become resigned to the next step which will be weaving in & out from lane to lane. It's a slippery slope.

Hmm, that is what I, so often, observe when I, from time time, venture onto this country's Mway system.
Then I ask myself, where are the guardians of our Road Laws?.
Never in evidence, it would seem, on my travels.
Preach the theory, explain the Law.
Please, you and your colleagues, get out there and enforce it.
Because I am utterly fed up with doing it correctly, while others blatantly don't.

I agree. The point is that, like it or not, we are already some way down the slippery slope. Significant and growing numbers of people undertake routinely while others watch them and observe that nothing happens to prevent them. Over time, attitudes as to what is normal change. Rather like the 70mph motorway limit, there is perhaps recognition that it is the law but this knowledge becomes offset by widespread practice, so that people think it is normal and acceptable, both to cruise at 80mph and to undertake.

Given the day to day reality of this situation, the police must either set out to stop the trend before it develops further (upsetting a good few ordinary citizens along the way!) or accept that drivers' behaviour has changed to cope with current traffic conditions.

I'm no expert but I believe that undertaking is perfectly legal in some countries (USA?). What is the experience in those countries and could it work here? We've already trialled use of the hard shoulder under controlled conditions on the M42 and that trial is to be extended onto other roads. Perhaps undertaking should be the next development. I don't know if it would work or if it would, as Von suggests, give a license to those who weave all over the road. I think it's worth thinking about, however.

[WhoseGeneration]

vonhosen said:

Too busy with other stuff most of the time. I'm not a Roads Policing officer & there are less of them getting posted to motorways (with the advent of HATOs).

Edited by vonhosen on Monday 5th November 19:16

It's not personal, just venting my spleen.
We are all at the whim of the Politicians and their outlook.
Are we not?.
Just, why cannot they listen to those of us who are enthusiastic about driving and who seek to practise that art to the best of our abilities and want to encourage others to so do?.
Oh, I know, current climate, cars, very bad things.
Take the bus.
Bus drivers, from my experience, utterly useless.

[BertBert]

DJ_AS said:

BertBert said:

As we are on the Advanced Driver forum, is there another approach to this situation to have achieved a safer outcome for all concerned and specifically the OP...

One of the things that the OP said was about his contribution...his position may have concealed the LH indicator of the people carrier. The OP also had a tailgater, so would a safer course of action have been to help the weaker driver. If the OP had moved over to L2, he could have created a safe buffer for the people carrier to pull into.

The tailgater behind would have accelerated up behind the people carrier adding pressure to move over and the tailgate would be in front of the OP.

All in all a much better outcome to remove oneself from a dangerous situation and potentially reduce the danger.

Of course this is with the benefit of hindsight. However, I do take that kind of action. If I am stuck behind a driver who will not move over and there is a car coming up behind me that looks like they really want to get by, I move over. Lets the guy behind get on with the monstering (which I wont do) and makes the guy in front think I am going to undertake. Often gets the job done. Car moves over, faster car goes through and I move out and follow.

Bert

I agree with the fact that it may have helped if I had moved in L2 and indeed would have done so had I been stuck behind the people carrier for a period of time.

I did not do so on this ocassion because I hoped the driver had the sense to move into L2. Which he did try to do.

Maybe I could've anticipated the actions of the following driver better and is something I will consider in the future.

Just to say I wasn't having a go, just musing! I thought from your description it took longer than it did.
Bert

[Tonsko]

So, say for instance, you are being undertaken while making progress in Lane 3. Should you let them get on with it? I suspect the answer is yes.

Also, I'd be interested in the observers' opinions on how to get away from drivers/ situations that may (in your estimation) become dodgy.

Say for isntance, you see someone driving erratically on a motorway (at or around the NSL), and don't actually want to be within a mile of them in roadspace. What do you do? I tend to make 'extreme' progress to get away from them and leave them behind, settling back to NSL when sufficiently far ahead. After all, if you were at NSL, you'd be around them for longer. Should you reduce your speed and let them get ahead - when this will impact your progress.

If there's a services near, then that's good, as you can make a toilet stop and have a coffee (if you've got a spare 50 quid! ) and let them get far ahead.

So...thoughts please?

[The Black Flash]

gdaybruce said:

I'm no expert but I believe that undertaking is perfectly legal in some countries (USA?). What is the experience in those countries and could it work here? We've already trialled use of the hard shoulder under controlled conditions on the M42 and that trial is to be extended onto other roads. Perhaps undertaking should be the next development. I don't know if it would work or if it would, as Von suggests, give a license to those who weave all over the road. I think it's worth thinking about, however.

I drove in the USA years ago, and it was the norm then...not sure if it still is. The argument I heard was that it puts the onus on the person wishing to press on to make the effort; everyone else can happilly sit in their lane without bothering.

It seemed to work there, although the roads I saw were largely less busy than ours. I don't really care, as long as everyone understands the rules and sticks to them.

I will occaisionally pass on the left, but only if the person is blatantly refusing to move over after a couple of minutes or more - and then leaving a lane's gap if possible. I don't think I have ever, or would ever, pass two cars on the left for exactly the reasons in the OP.

[BertBert]

Tonsko said:

So, say for instance, you are being undertaken while making progress in Lane 3. Should you let them get on with it? I suspect the answer is yes.

Also, I'd be interested in the observers' opinions on how to get away from drivers/ situations that may (in your estimation) become dodgy.

Say for isntance, you see someone driving erratically on a motorway (at or around the NSL), and don't actually want to be within a mile of them in roadspace. What do you do? I tend to make 'extreme' progress to get away from them and leave them behind, settling back to NSL when sufficiently far ahead. After all, if you were at NSL, you'd be around them for longer. Should you reduce your speed and let them get ahead - when this will impact your progress.

If there's a services near, then that's good, as you can make a toilet stop and have a coffee (if you've got a spare 50 quid! ) and let them get far ahead.

So...thoughts please?

How do they undertake you when you are in L3? You are either in L3 overtaking something in L2 or you are in L2 overtaking something in L1 or you are in L1.
Bert

[Yung Man]

BertBert said:

Tonsko said:

So, say for instance, you are being undertaken while making progress in Lane 3. Should you let them get on with it? I suspect the answer is yes.

Also, I'd be interested in the observers' opinions on how to get away from drivers/ situations that may (in your estimation) become dodgy.

Say for isntance, you see someone driving erratically on a motorway (at or around the NSL), and don't actually want to be within a mile of them in roadspace. What do you do? I tend to make 'extreme' progress to get away from them and leave them behind, settling back to NSL when sufficiently far ahead. After all, if you were at NSL, you'd be around them for longer. Should you reduce your speed and let them get ahead - when this will impact your progress.

If there's a services near, then that's good, as you can make a toilet stop and have a coffee (if you've got a spare 50 quid! ) and let them get far ahead.

So...thoughts please?

How do they undertake you when you are in L3? You are either in L3 overtaking something in L2 or you are in L2 overtaking something in L1 or you are in L1.
Bert

He is in a queue or 27 cars all waiting to pass the guy in lane 2 700 yards ahead doing 67mph, and the guy at the front in lane 3 is doing 69mph, you must have seen it, they pull over into lane 2 pass 22 of the cars then force their way back into lane 3.

[Tonsko]

Yung Man said:

He is in a queue or 27 cars all waiting to pass the guy in lane 2 700 yards ahead doing 67mph, and the guy at the front in lane 3 is doing 69mph, you must have seen it, they pull over into lane 2 pass 22 of the cars then force their way back into lane 3.

That's it. Sorry, didn't really explain myself.

[BertBert]

Tonsko said:

Yung Man said:

He is in a queue or 27 cars all waiting to pass the guy in lane 2 700 yards ahead doing 67mph, and the guy at the front in lane 3 is doing 69mph, you must have seen it, they pull over into lane 2 pass 22 of the cars then force their way back into lane 3.

That's it. Sorry, didn't really explain myself.

Is that the proper approach? After all, you are only sposed to be out overtaking. That means that the Advanced Driver condones sitting in the furthest right lane in the vain hope they can go faster.

As I am not an Advanced Driver, would one of the experts like to comment on what IAM/Rospa would suggest here?

Bert

[Bing o]

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all.

Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left? In my experience, the right hand lane is the default lane, and woe betide you if you try and get past them. After all the white sign with the diagonal black line means "50mph in the right hand lane" of a dual carriageway does it not?

So where is the lane hog cam, the traf pol, the government education films, the matrix signs telling people to stay left?

I'll give you a clue - they don't exist because this government is intent on crippling the road network, aided and abetted by the selfish wits who seem to be breeding at ever greater rates.

[vonhosen]

Bing o said:

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all.

Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left? In my experience, the right hand lane is the default lane, and woe betide you if you try and get past them. After all the white sign with the diagonal black line means "50mph in the right hand lane" of a dual carriageway does it not?

So where is the lane hog cam, the traf pol, the government education films, the matrix signs telling people to stay left?

I'll give you a clue - they don't exist because this government is intent on crippling the road network, aided and abetted by the selfish wits who seem to be breeding at ever greater rates.

If you undertake, you've no moral high ground over the lane hogger IMHO.
Once people by default start doing that, you can't ask people to keep left.
You've gone to the USA style of all 3 lanes doing virtually the same speed, with every now & then one carving from lane to lane. If that's what you want so be it.
If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

[7db]

vonhosen said:

If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

Do you think that people should be using their vehicles and drives to teach other drivers how to behave? I don't, and think it's dangerous.

If, on a blue light run, on an empty motorway, you came across someone bimbling along at 50 in lane 3. Would you sit behind them until they pulled over?

[vonhosen]

7db said:

vonhosen said:

If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

Do you think that people should be using their vehicles and drives to teach other drivers how to behave? I don't, and think it's dangerous.

That's not what I mean. Your actions in undertaking just encourages them to stay out there & not move left. It re-enforces there is no need to.

7db said:

If, on a blue light run, on an empty motorway, you came across someone bimbling along at 50 in lane 3. Would you sit behind them until they pulled over?

Quite often do, in the spirit of what you're saying, but I've never actually come across anyone doing 50 in lane 3 with nothing else on the road except us.
If I undertake at speed & they move left, I'll be carrying the can so I prefer not to put myself there.
There is no exemption for me from DD or DWDCA.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 7th November 23:21

[Vaux]

vonhosen said:

... I'm not a Roads Policing officer & there are less of them getting posted to motorways (with the advent of HATOs).

Where can I get figures for this? Recently I attended a meeting with a Merseyside Police Inspector as a speaker and he said RPU numbers had increased over the last year?
You might not see them patrolling so much, but when you need one they're there, in my experience.