So you think its ok to undertake?

[Bing o]

vonhosen said:

Bing o said:

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all.

Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left? In my experience, the right hand lane is the default lane, and woe betide you if you try and get past them. After all the white sign with the diagonal black line means "50mph in the right hand lane" of a dual carriageway does it not?

So where is the lane hog cam, the traf pol, the government education films, the matrix signs telling people to stay left?

I'll give you a clue - they don't exist because this government is intent on crippling the road network, aided and abetted by the selfish wits who seem to be breeding at ever greater rates.

If you undertake, you've no moral high ground over the lane hogger IMHO.
Once people by default start doing that, you can't ask people to keep left.
You've gone to the USA style of all 3 lanes doing virtually the same speed, with every now & then one carving from lane to lane. If that's what you want so be it.
If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

That's a great way of ignoring my question.

As with many other crimes at the moment that the Police turn their blind eye to, the average law abiding citizen who has a tax paying job to go to suffers due to the blithering, the inept and the down right bloody minded people that we let fester like the rancid boils that they are in this country.

I ask you again "Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left?"

[Yung Man]

Bing o said:

That's a great way of ignoring my question.

As with many other crimes at the moment that the Police turn their blind eye to, the average law abiding citizen who has a tax paying job to go to suffers due to the blithering, the inept and the down right bloody minded people that we let fester like the rancid boils that they are in this country.

I ask you again "Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left?"

The other day as I joined the motorway I thought I would count the number of vehicles running with one headlight out, I couldn't keep up, eight vehicles in the less than one mile, I kid you not.
Why don't the police do something about this, again running with an headlight out becomes the norm, It's served up on a plate for you (plod) how easy do you want it?.

[Bing o]

Yung Man said:

Bing o said:

That's a great way of ignoring my question.

As with many other crimes at the moment that the Police turn their blind eye to, the average law abiding citizen who has a tax paying job to go to suffers due to the blithering, the inept and the down right bloody minded people that we let fester like the rancid boils that they are in this country.

I ask you again "Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left?"

The other day as I joined the motorway I thought I would count the number of vehicles running with one headlight out, I couldn't keep up, eight vehicles in the less than one mile, I kid you not.
Why don't the police do something about this, again running with an headlight out becomes the norm, It's served up on a plate for you (plod) how easy do you want it?.

But you can probably catch 20 speeders in the same sretch of road, and without any plod.

Leaving them free to concentrate on the important duties.




Filling in ethnicity awareness surveys.

[vonhosen]

Bing o said:

vonhosen said:

Bing o said:

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all.

Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left? In my experience, the right hand lane is the default lane, and woe betide you if you try and get past them. After all the white sign with the diagonal black line means "50mph in the right hand lane" of a dual carriageway does it not?

So where is the lane hog cam, the traf pol, the government education films, the matrix signs telling people to stay left?

I'll give you a clue - they don't exist because this government is intent on crippling the road network, aided and abetted by the selfish wits who seem to be breeding at ever greater rates.

If you undertake, you've no moral high ground over the lane hogger IMHO.
Once people by default start doing that, you can't ask people to keep left.
You've gone to the USA style of all 3 lanes doing virtually the same speed, with every now & then one carving from lane to lane. If that's what you want so be it.
If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

That's a great way of ignoring my question.

As with many other crimes at the moment that the Police turn their blind eye to, the average law abiding citizen who has a tax paying job to go to suffers due to the blithering, the inept and the down right bloody minded people that we let fester like the rancid boils that they are in this country.

I ask you again "Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left?"

The Highway Code , Highways Agency Education Videos, Poster campaigns, plus of course Police officers.

My point still remains though, you undertaking doesn't remove the problem, it just encourages it's continuance & the development of an even worse scenario of cars passing at speed on both sides then darting from lane to lane.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 8th November 17:01

[vonhosen]

Vaux said:

vonhosen said:

... I'm not a Roads Policing officer & there are less of them getting posted to motorways (with the advent of HATOs).

Where can I get figures for this? Recently I attended a meeting with a Merseyside Police Inspector as a speaker and he said RPU numbers had increased over the last year?
You might not see them patrolling so much, but when you need one they're there, in my experience.

The fact numbers in some Roads Policing Departments may have increased slightly, doesn't mean that those increases have been deployed on motorways, resulting in motorway patrol numbers being as high, or higher, than prior to the advent of HATOs.

[Bing o]

vonhosen said:

Bing o said:

vonhosen said:

Bing o said:

vonhosen said:

As soon as overtaking nearside does become the norm, there is no point in trying to get people to keep left at all.

Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left? In my experience, the right hand lane is the default lane, and woe betide you if you try and get past them. After all the white sign with the diagonal black line means "50mph in the right hand lane" of a dual carriageway does it not?

So where is the lane hog cam, the traf pol, the government education films, the matrix signs telling people to stay left?

I'll give you a clue - they don't exist because this government is intent on crippling the road network, aided and abetted by the selfish wits who seem to be breeding at ever greater rates.

If you undertake, you've no moral high ground over the lane hogger IMHO.
Once people by default start doing that, you can't ask people to keep left.
You've gone to the USA style of all 3 lanes doing virtually the same speed, with every now & then one carving from lane to lane. If that's what you want so be it.
If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

That's a great way of ignoring my question.

As with many other crimes at the moment that the Police turn their blind eye to, the average law abiding citizen who has a tax paying job to go to suffers due to the blithering, the inept and the down right bloody minded people that we let fester like the rancid boils that they are in this country.

I ask you again "Who exactly is "trying to get" people to keep left?"

The Highway Code , Highways Agency Education Videos, Poster campaigns, plus of course Police officers.

My point still remains though, you undertaking doesn't remove the problem, it just encourages it's continuance & the development of an even worse scenario of cars passing at speed on both sides then darting from lane to lane.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 8th November 17:01

Von, thank you. Very interesting. Though I've never seen hem on mainstream media. Instead you get 5 minutes of "don't speed past schools" due to a kiddie getting run over on the pavement by a drugged driver doing 31 mph...oh for the days of common sense.

Why can't they just broadcast a 10 second "middle lane morons - you are a muppet" message during the ads I don't know.

I agree, undertaking is bad, but I am a realist who values my time more than a deadhead in L2 or 3 who has no idea or peripheral vision.

[ATG]

vonhosen said:

If you undertake, you've no moral high ground over the lane hogger IMHO.
Once people by default start doing that, you can't ask people to keep left.
You've gone to the USA style of all 3 lanes doing virtually the same speed, with every now & then one carving from lane to lane. If that's what you want so be it.
If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

Couldn't agree more. Yes, it's frustrating to sit back and wait for the muppets to finally move left, but if you give in to the temptation to blast past on their left you are becoming part of the problem.

Last week on the M4 I saw a version of what the O/P described, and I'll be driving down to London tomorrow night and I expect I'll see another. It is becoming a frighteningly common sight. Last time it was an A3 with a BMW glued to his arse, both tearing up Lane 2 just as the bimbler in front of me decided to finally move left. I guess I could see the serious risk of a crash about 3 seconds before it would have happened, so I had a little time to further widen the gap between me and the bimbler and move hard right to try to increase the visibility, but bimbler didn't check mirrors before simultaneously indicating and starting to drift across into Lane 2, A3 jumped on the brakes and narrowly avoided rear-ending the bimbler who swerved hard back across Lane 3 and almost stuffed it into the central reservation where he nearly got rear-ended by the BMW which had also slammed on the brakes then slicied in front of me into Lane 3 to avoid the Audi. Had any of them hit anything the chance of not being collected by them or rear-ended by the traffic behind me would have been all but zero. It would have been a major pile up.

Now this was a spectacularly bad bit of driving by A3 and the BMW, but any left side overtake runs a similar risk. You are putting yourself in a position where another driver will not expect to find you and that is always a bad idea.

Edited by ATG on Thursday 8th November 22:47

[Bing o]

ATG said:

vonhosen said:

If you undertake, you've no moral high ground over the lane hogger IMHO.
Once people by default start doing that, you can't ask people to keep left.
You've gone to the USA style of all 3 lanes doing virtually the same speed, with every now & then one carving from lane to lane. If that's what you want so be it.
If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

Couldn't agree more. Yes, it's frustrating to sit back and wait for the muppets to finally move left, but if you give in to the temptation to blast past on their left you are becoming part of the problem.

Last week on the M4 I saw a version of what the O/P described, and I'll be driving down to London tomorrow night and I expect I'll see another. It is becoming a frighteningly common sight. Last time it was an A3 with a BMW glued to his arse, both tearing up Lane 2 just as the bimbler in front of me decided to finally move left. I guess I could see the serious risk of a crash about 3 seconds before it would have happened, so I had a little time to further widen the gap between me and the bimbler and move hard right to try to increase the visibility, but bimbler didn't check mirrors before simultaneously indicating and starting to drift across into Lane 2, A3 jumped on the brakes and narrowly avoided rear-ending the bimbler who swerved hard back across Lane 3 and almost stuffed it into the central reservation where he nearly got rear-ended by the BMW which had also slammed on the brakes then slicied in front of me into Lane 3 to avoid the Audi. Had any of them hit anything the chance of not being collected by them or rear-ended by the traffic behind me would have been all but zero. It would have been a major pile up.

Now this was a spectacularly bad bit of driving by A3 and the BMW, but any left side overtake runs a similar risk. You are putting yourself in a position where another driver will not expect to find you and that is always a bad idea.

Edited by ATG on Thursday 8th November 22:47

There are poor undertakers, just like there are poor overtakers.

I undertake often. I overtake often.

I have only ever been nearly sideswiped when overtaking.

When conducted with a decent amount of care, there is little difference, except that when undertaking, I still have L1 or the hard shoulder to escape to, not the central reservation (NB I will undertake L3 s in L1...)

[vonhosen]

Bing o said:

ATG said:

vonhosen said:

If you undertake, you've no moral high ground over the lane hogger IMHO.
Once people by default start doing that, you can't ask people to keep left.
You've gone to the USA style of all 3 lanes doing virtually the same speed, with every now & then one carving from lane to lane. If that's what you want so be it.
If it's not you are setting no example with the undertaking, you've just dragged your level down, not attempted to drag theirs up.

Couldn't agree more. Yes, it's frustrating to sit back and wait for the muppets to finally move left, but if you give in to the temptation to blast past on their left you are becoming part of the problem.

Last week on the M4 I saw a version of what the O/P described, and I'll be driving down to London tomorrow night and I expect I'll see another. It is becoming a frighteningly common sight. Last time it was an A3 with a BMW glued to his arse, both tearing up Lane 2 just as the bimbler in front of me decided to finally move left. I guess I could see the serious risk of a crash about 3 seconds before it would have happened, so I had a little time to further widen the gap between me and the bimbler and move hard right to try to increase the visibility, but bimbler didn't check mirrors before simultaneously indicating and starting to drift across into Lane 2, A3 jumped on the brakes and narrowly avoided rear-ending the bimbler who swerved hard back across Lane 3 and almost stuffed it into the central reservation where he nearly got rear-ended by the BMW which had also slammed on the brakes then slicied in front of me into Lane 3 to avoid the Audi. Had any of them hit anything the chance of not being collected by them or rear-ended by the traffic behind me would have been all but zero. It would have been a major pile up.

Now this was a spectacularly bad bit of driving by A3 and the BMW, but any left side overtake runs a similar risk. You are putting yourself in a position where another driver will not expect to find you and that is always a bad idea.

Edited by ATG on Thursday 8th November 22:47

There are poor undertakers, just like there are poor overtakers.

I undertake often. I overtake often.

I have only ever been nearly sideswiped when overtaking.

When conducted with a decent amount of care, there is little difference, except that when undertaking, I still have L1 or the hard shoulder to escape to, not the central reservation (NB I will undertake L3 s in L1...)

But what you do is observed by others, who will have the attitude that if they are doing it, then I will do it. You undermine the principles of the Highway Code & foster the same in others. Only they may not do it with care like3 you say you do. It is, as I've said, then a slippery slope. The differential on the nearside, will become the same as the differentials on the offside, then we end up with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-kDITgEE1Y

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 8th November 22:58

[deevlash]

i tend to undertake if someones dawdling but only after Ive switched my indicator on for a few seconds and if that fails I flash them and if that fails I undertake.

To be honest though on a 3 lane motorway its best to go to the inside lane and fly up it as no one ever uses the blooming thing anyway!

[Bing o]

vonhosen said:

But what you do is observed by others, who will have the attitude that if they are doing it, then I will do it. You undermine the principles of the Highway Code & foster the same in others. Only they may not do it with care like3 you say you do. It is, as I've said, then a slippery slope. The differential on the nearside, will become the same as the differentials on the offside, then we end up with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-kDITgEE1Y

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 8th November 22:58

Rubish.Those guys are doing something completely different.

I tell you what von, I will sit in the middle lane (l2 or the purists) because everyone else does it...

boocks to this country, I have an education, I have respect for others, I care about my driving, I will continue to do what makes sense to me, I will take my chances. I doubt mr MLM will equate his repmbile to my Lotus and pass me off as a "nutter" and he will carry on unaffected, as will I.

If yopu even tried to focus on poor lane discipline compared to pulling drivers for 85 in a 70 you may get somewhere...

[vonhosen]

Bing o said:

If yopu even tried to focus on poor lane discipline compared to pulling drivers for 85 in a 70 you may get somewhere...

You're not in a position to say what I do or don't do in respect of those, because you've no evidence or data to call on.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 8th November 23:29

[Bing o]

vonhosen said:

Bing o said:

If yopu even tried to focus on poor lane discipline compared to pulling drivers for 85 in a 70 you may get somewhere...

You're not in a position to say what I do or don't do in respect of those, because you've no evidence or data to call on.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 8th November 23:29

Because you won't tell us....

You are plod, please gve me figures for MLMs pulled vs mediocre speeders...

[ATG]

I always wondered if some Elise drivers were subconciously attracted to the car becasue it resembles a pram? Joke! Just a joke ... sorry

[Bing o]

ATG said:

I always wondered if some Elise drivers were subconciously attracted to the car becasue it resembles a pram? Joke! Just a joke ... sorry

I'm sorry, who make's your car thses days? about as russian as Chelski, without the cash...

[ATG]

Bing o said:

ATG said:

I always wondered if some Elise drivers were subconciously attracted to the car becasue it resembles a pram? Joke! Just a joke ... sorry

I'm sorry, who make's your car thses days? about as russian as Chelski, without the cash...

TVR is still a traditional English car manufacturer. There is no more traditional activity for an English sportscar manufacturer than going bust.

[Bing o]

ATG said:

Bing o said:

ATG said:

I always wondered if some Elise drivers were subconciously attracted to the car becasue it resembles a pram? Joke! Just a joke ... sorry

I'm sorry, who make's your car thses days? about as russian as Chelski, without the cash...

TVR is still a traditional English car manufacturer. There is no more traditional activity for an English sportscar manufacturer than going bust.

Fair play

[grumpy]

Sorry, not read all this topic so forgive me if something similar has been mentioned before.
My drive to work, roundabout, two mile stretch of dual carriageway with a long term road works at the end meaning lane one is "conned of" 50mph limit.
Set the scene?
Drivers exiting the roundabout and remaining in the right hand lane doing whatever speed they think everyone else should do, "it's a 30 limit 2 miles down the road so I'd better do 30 now"
The limit is 50, so we all have to stay behind them?
There's a speed camera, sorry, safty scamera at the point where the road goes from a 50 to a 30 mph limit, 30 mph, fine by me, ped. crossing and all that, but why does the twunt that's been doing 30 in the 50 slow to 20 to pass the scamera?
These are the type of people that cause the problems, the, "I need to be in lane two because I'm turning right in five miles". T#ssers.
Undertaking wrong?

[Hooli]

ATG said:

Bing o said:

ATG said:

I always wondered if some Elise drivers were subconciously attracted to the car becasue it resembles a pram? Joke! Just a joke ... sorry

I'm sorry, who make's your car thses days? about as russian as Chelski, without the cash...

TVR is still a traditional English car manufacturer. There is no more traditional activity for an English sportscar manufacturer than going bust.

[BertBert]

I posed a question on the prev page which was either too boring to answer or got lost in the melee (thought i was on SP&L for a minute).

What is the correct lane discipline? There is the inevitable queue in L3; some cars in L1; L2 and L3 are going about the same speed. I am in L2 desiring to move by and there is the big gap in front of me as everyone has moved to L3 in a queue.

Do I join the queue in L3 and exascerbate that problem?
Do I stay in L2 going past cars in L1 buit not closing up the gap in L2 (as that would be underatking)?
Do something else?

Bert

PS I am an expert in owning ("bust&quot english cars. I have just got rid of my TVR and the rover is going strong. I also have a Radical and a Caterham. I have a suspicion that all is not well at Rad, although Caterham say they are holding up!