I'm bored with driving..

[waremark]

Hooli said:

if they designed cars properly the handling wouldnt be so dangerous they need ESP to be driveable. compare a modern car with the ESP off to a 70s saloon. yes the modern car has more grip but almost undoubtedly its got less control on the limit. so if they designed properley, decent handling rather than an all out search for grip then the car would be safer naturally.

Looking back with rose tinted spectacles, I think. Remember 'Unsafe at any speed', Ralph Nader's very fair attack on the Corvair? Or even how easy it was to swap ends in 205 Gti's?

And modern cars don't all handle badly at the limit (my M3 is a classic drifter). However, I do agree that the much higher limits of modern cars mean that you may have less time to sort out a slide.

BTW, I like to be able to turn off ESP, but personally I never do so for driving on the road. Good modern systems may stop you having fun by deliberately sliding (and I am not good enough to do that unless there are wide open spaces available for when I get it wrong) but they really don't hold you back. If the unexpected happens (and even advanced drivers are not immune) they may save your life. I find it a bit hard to argue with manufacturers who choose not to let you turn it off.

[Hooli]

i admit the only 70s car i spent a lot of time with was a mk2 escort. but im damn sure it was a lot safer on the limit than say a serria.

[Mr Whippy]

waremark said:

Mr Whippy said:

Seen big cars in normal looking accidents not so lucky, and then people in small cars in bad crashes walk away... really is scary when you think you should be safe in a big safe modern car with ESP etc...

Current Bosch ad claims:
"Independent studies show that 50% of serious road accidents could be prevented if all cars were equipped with ESP".

ESP cannot beat the laws of physics, and the benefits of ESP can be thrown away by driving in a way which throws away the safety benefits. However, it does make a dramatic improvement to even a skilled driver's ability to keep control at the limit.

I suspect that both dhutch's accident and the tragic fatal accident linked by hardboiled phil would have been prevented by fitment of ESP.

Should ESP be a legal requirement?

On cars with ESP, should it be possible to turn it off?

Hehe, can of worms that one.

I've never needed it, and neither have millions of others, so it's hard to speak of it's benefits.

I've had plenty of 'oh crap' moments in driving too, but the cars have stayed stable and quick thinking has avoided incident. ABS or not, managed to stop in emergencies, ESP, or not in my case, managed to swerve a whole lane width around a whole fallen branch at speed. Sudden understeer on mud off roundabout, managed to bring it back by leaving the throttle neutral and waiting for the wheels to pass over the mud (didn't panic, but I admit many might lift off)

Again, every circumstance is different. I've probably been pretty lucky.

I just can't help but think that ESP might sometimes do something negative, such as keep the car stable, and understeer your nearside wheels into a verge, loosing grip, and making you hit a tree, just as much as without it you might spin sideways and still have all four contact patches on clean tarmac (after maybe hitting a puddle of oil/diesel on the nearside pair)
Agree no one could wish that while driving, yikes, sudden understeer, let me lift off and slide it a bit so I don't understeer into that tree... unlikely. But maybe the accident would be less serious had they spun out of control? The ESP doesn't know the road ends, and there is a tree... it'll just try keep the car stable, irrespective of what YOU want... double edged sword imho.

Dave

[waremark]

Mr Whippy said:

I just can't help but think that ESP might sometimes do something negative, such as keep the car stable, and understeer your nearside wheels into a verge, loosing grip, and making you hit a tree, just as much as without it you might spin sideways and still have all four contact patches on clean tarmac (after maybe hitting a puddle of oil/diesel on the nearside pair)
Agree no one could wish that while driving, yikes, sudden understeer, let me lift off and slide it a bit so I don't understeer into that tree... unlikely. But maybe the accident would be less serious had they spun out of control? The ESP doesn't know the road ends, and there is a tree... it'll just try keep the car stable, irrespective of what YOU want... double edged sword imho.

Dave

A bit like seatbelts, I am sure there must be some situations where ESP could make matters worse - but they would be few and far between, and I don't think this example is one of them.

If you were understeering towards a tree, that's just the sort of situation ESP would help with. Steer away from the tree, and the ESP will make the car go the way the steering is pointed if physically possible by pulsing the inside brakes. If (without ESP) you spin, the trajectory of the car will continue.

[Mr Whippy]

waremark said:

Mr Whippy said:

I just can't help but think that ESP might sometimes do something negative, such as keep the car stable, and understeer your nearside wheels into a verge, loosing grip, and making you hit a tree, just as much as without it you might spin sideways and still have all four contact patches on clean tarmac (after maybe hitting a puddle of oil/diesel on the nearside pair)
Agree no one could wish that while driving, yikes, sudden understeer, let me lift off and slide it a bit so I don't understeer into that tree... unlikely. But maybe the accident would be less serious had they spun out of control? The ESP doesn't know the road ends, and there is a tree... it'll just try keep the car stable, irrespective of what YOU want... double edged sword imho.

Dave

A bit like seatbelts, I am sure there must be some situations where ESP could make matters worse - but they would be few and far between, and I don't think this example is one of them.

If you were understeering towards a tree, that's just the sort of situation ESP would help with. Steer away from the tree, and the ESP will make the car go the way the steering is pointed if physically possible by pulsing the inside brakes. If (without ESP) you spin, the trajectory of the car will continue.

Uh, lets not read into it too much. ESP basically locks a cars stability within defined parameters. I'm sure there are as many times when those paramaters may lead an input to get an output that isn't desireable as much as it would give a desireable outcome.

Ie, left hand bend, understeer. Car coming other way, lift off and go into open straw field to left, or let ESP keep you stable and arc your trajectory right through the oncoming car...

I imagine it is great because you are in *some* control, but that doesn't mean that not being in control at all might actually result in more favourable conditions.

Dave

[l00nix]

[quote]
Looking back with rose tinted spectacles, I think. Remember 'Unsafe at any speed', Ralph Nader's very fair attack on the Corvair? Or even how easy it was to swap ends in 205 Gti's?

[/quote]

205 GTIs were and still are awesome cars. I'm not sure I like your comparison with 'Unsafe at any speed'. The difference between the likes of the 205GTI and most modern cars is 'feel', weight and balance. Which the 205 had fairly perfectly, hence it being a really great driver's car. It was also capable of being a safe car because of its very controllable handling. Introduce morons and you can have your 'unsafe at any speed', it's to do with the driver more than anything in 'loss of control' crashes. Of course the recent-ish breed of 'numb' cars seriously hinders the driver's feel of the grip level and therefore makes losing control more likely. I really hate the way things are going and am glad I mostly drive on rural-ish roads, where mostly I can drive safely, considerately and properly.

[waremark]

Mr Whippy said:

Ie, left hand bend, understeer. Car coming other way, lift off and go into open straw field to left, or let ESP keep you stable and arc your trajectory right through the oncoming car...

I imagine it is great because you are in *some* control, but that doesn't mean that not being in control at all might actually result in more favourable conditions.

Dave

Have you had a reasonable amount of limit handling practise in a car with good ESP? It's better than you think.

[Mr Whippy]

waremark said:

Mr Whippy said:

Ie, left hand bend, understeer. Car coming other way, lift off and go into open straw field to left, or let ESP keep you stable and arc your trajectory right through the oncoming car...

I imagine it is great because you are in *some* control, but that doesn't mean that not being in control at all might actually result in more favourable conditions.

Dave

Have you had a reasonable amount of limit handling practise in a car with good ESP? It's better than you think.

No, though I haven't seen any car reviews of 'good' ESP vs 'bad' ESP to know which is good to start with. But my experience isn't the issue here, what I'm pointing out is the premise of ESP as a safety device that is suggested is always better to have.

Afaik, ESP just makes the car stable, thats all. It can't find more grip than there actually is. It can find more than YOU might be able to however, but it's goal is keep the car stable and go where it thinks your control inputs want it to be. If that means understeer into a tree, then that is what it will do.

Again, would ESP intervention always result in a favourable outcome when it was activated?

The ESP doesn't think about crash outcomes or what is safer for the driver or occupants, it just tries to make the car go where it thinks you want to be.

If you want to be round a bend and understeer, it might get you round.

If you want to get round a bend and get understeer, it might understeer you less, into a tree. And you may well have been better understeering more, through the hedge infront of the tree.


Yes ESP is sensible, a bit like ABS, but it's far from perfect. As said, surely there are times that it can generate a less favourable outcome from being present? ABS being a bit crappy in snow for example, or the old two channel being crap when nearside wheels are on ice, and the offside on grippy surface, and the car won't use the grippy surface and yaw a bit, it just doesn't stop

Dave

[waremark]

I have done half a dozen winter driving courses with Volvo in Sweden. This has given extensive experience of trying to stay on a very slippery winding 'road' with and without ESP. I can honestly say that I cannot remember ESP (which Volvo call DSTC) ever getting in the way of making the car go the way I wanted it to - and it frequently helps. In being able to apply the brakes to different wheels individually it simply has more tools at its disposal than the driver does. The driver just has to make sure he steers the way he wants the car to go.

Earlier systems used to slow you down quite a bit. More recent systems are much more subtle and even the best drivers don't seem to be able to beat them. That said, they do restrict the fun of deliberately sliding, but this is something which I would never do on the road.

Recently I have played with my M3 on a couple of very slippery track days. Again, I have found the ESP brilliant.

I think ESP is a really significant aid, so long as the driver doesn't take the benefits for granted and just drive faster. Which perhaps even I do, because when I drove a Tuscan in appalling conditions last year I was certainly damned careful!!

[hardboiledPhil]

Mr Whippy said:

Yes ESP is sensible, a bit like ABS, but it's far from perfect. As said, surely there are times that it can generate a less favourable outcome from being present? ABS being a bit crappy in snow for example, or the old two channel being crap when nearside wheels are on ice, and the offside on grippy surface, and the car won't use the grippy surface and yaw a bit, it just doesn't stop

Dave

ABS is fine on snow as long as you have tyres which are designed for that scenario. Like Waremark, I've done a couple of training weekends in Sweden and you can drive for miles and miles there on snow and ice and ABS is never an issue BUT they have the proper rubber for it.

ESP I wouldn't go to say is perfect but it's infinitely nearer to perfect than the general public is capable of achieving. Even those people who think they are fantastic drivers.... get them on an airfield with Andy Walsh or Don Palmer and they'll realise how poor they actually are at managing "surprise" situations.

I reckon most people facing something in the middle of lane 3 on a motorway would be able to steer to avoid it but that's the easy part. Chances are they'll lift the throttle as well and after avoiding the object they'll end up spinning around or fishtailing down the road until they eventually spin. I see evidence of this sort of think on my route to work everyday (trees knocked over on motorway sidings etc). It's this sort of scenario that you just can't beat with ESP.

Volvo quote figures that suggest the introduction of ESP to new vehicles on the Swedish market has caused a marked reduction in single vehicle accidents (i.e. skidding off road etc).