Need some help with my driving

[supermono]

BOF said:

Braking into a corner is dumb

Lol. Actually it's not. But repeating rules like "braking into a corner is dumb" certainly is.

But I guess if the guy is about to be talked down to by a bunch of "rules is rules" stiffs, he may as well start his lessons immediately.

SM

[dhutch]

SamHH said:

...with IAM it's pass or fail and once you've passed you never have the retake the test, whereas with RoSPA passes are graded Bronze, Silver and Gold and you have to re-take the test every three years.

Ah right, that makes sence.
- So theres only one RoSPA test, but you can get bronze/silver/gold depending on how good year.

[dhutch]

BOF said:

Daniel,
Look here for RoSPA link... www.roada.org.uk/groups/index.htm

In very general terms, the progression in driver education is to start with IAM and go on to RoSPA...RoSPA is a bit thinner on the ground than IAM in most areas.

Again, thanks for the link.
- I looked at the RoSPA.com site, but didnt find the real roada/advanceddriver infomation of it


Daniel

Edited by dhutch on Monday 26th November 13:32

[Don]

supermono said:

BOF said:

Braking into a corner is dumb

Lol. Actually it's not.

Lol. Actually it can be.

For most drivers most of the time it is far better to have completed braking and have allowed the car to settle before turning in. By doing so one utilises the grip developed by the tyres for one thing at a time: to change either Speed OR Direction. Since to change Speed OR Direction requires grip it is far easier to utilise all the grip and more, causing a skid, if you use the grip to do two things at once.

Trail braking - the technique of braking during turn in to load the weight of the car on the front (steering) wheels - is, frankly, best left to track use. Graham Hill bend at Brands being a corner I have found the technique useful on. The problem with trail braking is that whilst it can tighten turn in (useful if you are understeering) is that it is very easy to overdo it induce a skid - not something you'd want to happen on road with a hedge waiting...

Not all IAM Observers are stuffy. And some us track drive (its more and more popular). And, would you believe, some of us do know what we're on about.

[BOF]

Thanks Don

After some years as an Observer I try to target my comments to the level of experience involved...hence my "dumb" comment to someone at the bottom of the ladder who is sensibly asking for advice.

I could, like many, post pages on trail braking, heel and toe and the rest, but I would rather see them go for 'O' levels before doing the 'A' level stuff and ending up in fields.

BOF.

[BOF]

dhutch said:

BOF said:

Daniel,
Look here for RoSPA link... www.roada.org.uk/groups/index.htm

In very general terms, the progression in driver education is to start with IAM and go on to RoSPA...RoSPA is a bit thinner on the ground than IAM in most areas.

Again, thanks for the link.
- I looked at the RoSPA.com site, but didnt find the real roada/advanceddriver infomation of it


Daniel
http://www.roada.org.uk/drivers/test/grading.htm
Better link here for what you want?

Edited by dhutch on Monday 26th November 13:32

This is a kind of look at the 'ladder' (stands back for attack!)

Edited by BOF on Monday 26th November 14:49

[supermono]

BOF said:

After some years as an Observer I try to target my comments to the level of experience involved.

Right. Assume the subject is an imbecile. They graduate from imbecile to idiot after listening to IAM mantra for an appropriate length of time.

The OP has already shown himself not to be an imbecile in his opening statement "I braked too hard". He knows that one can brake and steer at the same time but there are limits. He doesn't want to hear "braking into a corner is dumb". Why can't IAM gurus understand that everyone isn't a little league dumbster, and that they might just have been to a physics lesson or read a book about driving?

Unless and until that day you risk coming over as patronising and supercillious.

SM

[BOF]

""Unless and until that day you risk coming over as patronising and supercillious.""

Oh Deary Deary me... I'm off to the naughty corner!

BOF

[timskipper]

BOF said:

hence my "dumb" comment to someone at the bottom of the ladder who is sensibly asking for advice.

This ladder sounds like something to aspire to. Where are you on it and who is at the top?

[supermono]

BOF said:

Oh Deary Deary me... I'm off to the naughty corner!

So I take it you don't think you patronised the chap?

Supposing you told me your computer had a virus since you downloaded something bad. Would you feel patronised if I replied "Well downloading stuff from the internet is dumb, as you now know"?

SM

[TripleS]

Don't worry about this, SM. You and I are also not totally without understanding of these matters.

It is perfectly obvious that one can to some extent brake in corners, but we mustn't overdo it in relation to our requirements for cornering grip.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

IAM should have a standard nationwide price of £65 for those under 26.

I don't agree that Rospa is a step beyond IAM. As already mentioned, differences are that IAM has better coverage of local 'groups' round the country, and that Rospa grades test passes as bronze, silver or gold and requires members to retake their test every three years. IAM is much better known because it has so many more members. Apart from those differences the two organisations are exceptionally similar, teaching and testing the same skills in the same way. You will find more differences between individual Observers/Tutors than you will between the two organisations.

You might contact your local groups of both organisations and choose the one which seems more efficient and helpful.

Mark from Ware, member of IAM and Rospa ADAR.

[BOF]

timskipper said:

BOF said:

hence my "dumb" comment to someone at the bottom of the ladder who is sensibly asking for advice.

This ladder sounds like something to aspire to. Where are you on it and who is at the top?

Timeskipper,

See profile...wherever that puts me on the ladder I did seven hours last month with two Class 1 Trafpols to prepare for the IAM Special Assessment...as I was not exactly happy with my performance I will have another go next year and do better.

Still looking UP the ladder and trying to encourage any driver to take the first step towards further education.

supermono,

If my comment came across as 'patronising or supercilious' it was not my intent...I do not think I patronised the driver...my intent was, and is, to maybe save just one knock on the door by a Trafpol sometime.

Sorry if I should have chosen my words more carefully Pal - and YES - I have a big problem with my Dell - can you help me?

BOF

[BOF]

""IAM should have a standard nationwide price of £65 for those under 26."

Mark,

I think we are on the same wavelength...our Group are still refunding the FULL fee to under 26s.

But, if we ever have a Government appointing a thinking Transport (or Health) Minister, who has a calculator and can work out the costs of offering FREE Advanced tuition...even making it mandatory...compared with the cost of KSI to hospitals and police...and personal loss?

What kid is going to spend even £65 when his insurance is costing him half a years wages?

What is the cost of a visit to A+E...or a funeral?

BOF.

PS - This came to my e mail the other night...from a Class 1 who has given me a lot of valuable advice...after the death of one of his family in a road 'incident'


""I have **** a beautiful 3-year old to explain about her daddy not coming home.

I am in tears.

Sorry pal.""

Edited by BOF on Monday 26th November 18:55

Edited by BOF on Monday 26th November 18:58

[Gromit37]

supermono said:

BOF said:

After some years as an Observer I try to target my comments to the level of experience involved.

Right. Assume the subject is an imbecile. They graduate from imbecile to idiot after listening to IAM mantra for an appropriate length of time.

The OP has already shown himself not to be an imbecile in his opening statement "I braked too hard". He knows that one can brake and steer at the same time but there are limits. He doesn't want to hear "braking into a corner is dumb". Why can't IAM gurus understand that everyone isn't a little league dumbster, and that they might just have been to a physics lesson or read a book about driving?

Unless and until that day you risk coming over as patronising and supercillious.

SM

I can steer, brake and pick my nose whilst looking in the passenger footwell. Surely that makes me a driving guru? I remember going to a lot of physics lessons. I don't recall them even mentioning cars, never mind the physics of tyres, steering and braking. I've also read books about driving that don't mention braking and steering at the same time. Quite what a "dumbster" is, I'm not sure, however, I do know that you appear to be quite patronising too.

And no, I'm not and never have been a member of the IAM. Let's hope that the OP isn't put off by snide comments, especially in response to something that was clearly not meant to be taken too literally in the first place.

[supermono]

Gromit37 said:

Let's hope that the OP isn't put off by snide comments, especially in response to something that was clearly not meant to be taken too literally in the first place.

There's no snide comments, and the OP is obviously to be encouraged to take whatever training he thinks he needs from wherever he can get it.

My point which you've deliberately misunderstood is that as soon as you start talking to an IAM instructor (who obviously knows a lot about safe driving, no question about it) he will see you as an imbecile. He'll puff out his chest and start talking down to you. He might say things like (with full smug mode enabled) "braking into a corner is dumb, as you now know". He'll say this knowing it's untrue, but taking into account that he's addressing a non-advanced subject, he needs to make sure it's kept nice and simple so as to not confuse the poor mite.

I've experienced this loads of times with advanced motorcyclists and car drivers alike and it's a fantastic way they have of putting people like me (with a little knowledge and a lot of appetite for more) right off the whole process.

SM

[Don]

supermono said:

Gromit37 said:

Let's hope that the OP isn't put off by snide comments, especially in response to something that was clearly not meant to be taken too literally in the first place.

There's no snide comments, and the OP is obviously to be encouraged to take whatever training he thinks he needs from wherever he can get it.

My point which you've deliberately misunderstood is that as soon as you start talking to an IAM instructor (who obviously knows a lot about safe driving, no question about it) he will see you as an imbecile. He'll puff out his chest and start talking down to you. He might say things like (with full smug mode enabled) "braking into a corner is dumb, as you now know". He'll say this knowing it's untrue, but taking into account that he's addressing a non-advanced subject, he needs to make sure it's kept nice and simple so as to not confuse the poor mite.

I've experienced this loads of times with advanced motorcyclists and car drivers alike and it's a fantastic way they have of putting people like me (with a little knowledge and a lot of appetite for more) right off the whole process.

SM

Well I can't say I have experienced anything like this studying for IAM/Rospa. Maybe I'm less sensitive or maybe you got unlucky, can't tell. As an Observer I can tell you I don't do any chest puffing but I DON'T pull any punches when it comes to telling people what their driving faults are. If you aren't clear and precise about what is wrong and what must be done to change it how can an Associate possibly improve! It is never a personal insult - simply a description of what must be done.

To be honest I've never had an Associate take this constructive criticism badly, either, although the odd middle aged bloke has looked a little crestfallen..

[1950trevorP]

If anyone starts from a position of "being patronised",
and suggests that others will suffer the same "fate",
it impairs their learning process.

Possibly.

[Moose.]

Morning all,

I must confess, I wasn't intending on starting any arguments between members here. I know what I did wrong and I also know it's not good practice to brake into a corner. However, it is something I'd done quite a few times before without issue on this particular corner, only this time I over did it for the conditions. I've tried blaming the tyres on the back wheels (Yoko A348s) which aren't particularly good in the damp, but the fact of the matter was I braked too hard before turning.

I'm not put off by some of the comments here, as I know I need some lecturing on how to drive safely on the road. I'm hoping IAM can give me this and will be investigating my local branch once the insurance claim is settled.

[supermono]

Don said:

I DON'T pull any punches when it comes to telling people what their driving faults are.

Oh come on, didn't you puff your chest just the teensiest bit when you typed that? Hmmm?

There's a book called "A Twist of the Wrist" by Keith Code. It's aim is to talk about riding motorbikes quickly. Now I know he is aiming to show people how to win races, which is different to IAM, but it's still the presentation of ideas of how to become better at controlling the machine, and that much is common.

The man is a genius. He presents his book as a series of "ideas" and "think about this" and "what would happen here" type things.

He's never patronising and always credits the reader with the good sense to evaulate what's being said, confident that his ideas will stand scrutiny.

It's all about the skill of presenting your ideas to people in such a way as to engage them. Simply reciting mantra and expecting people to comply or fail turns off a lot of people, myself included. I guess it must work to some extent or the organisation would fail, however it does produce a herd of chest puffers...

SM