Need some help with my driving

[Vaux]

BOF said:

This is a kind of look at the 'ladder' (stands back for attack!)

Why is an IAM Observer higher up than RoADAR Gold?

[supermono]

Vaux said:

BOF said:

This is a kind of look at the 'ladder' (stands back for attack!)

Why is an IAM Observer higher up than RoADAR Gold?

Don't question the system, man.

SM

[timskipper]

Vaux said:

BOF said:

This is a kind of look at the 'ladder' (stands back for attack!)

Why is an IAM Observer higher up than RoADAR Gold?

Not to mention HPC bum-chums.

[TripleS]

Don said:

supermono said:

Gromit37 said:

Let's hope that the OP isn't put off by snide comments, especially in response to something that was clearly not meant to be taken too literally in the first place.

There's no snide comments, and the OP is obviously to be encouraged to take whatever training he thinks he needs from wherever he can get it.

My point which you've deliberately misunderstood is that as soon as you start talking to an IAM instructor (who obviously knows a lot about safe driving, no question about it) he will see you as an imbecile. He'll puff out his chest and start talking down to you. He might say things like (with full smug mode enabled) "braking into a corner is dumb, as you now know". He'll say this knowing it's untrue, but taking into account that he's addressing a non-advanced subject, he needs to make sure it's kept nice and simple so as to not confuse the poor mite.

I've experienced this loads of times with advanced motorcyclists and car drivers alike and it's a fantastic way they have of putting people like me (with a little knowledge and a lot of appetite for more) right off the whole process.

SM

Well I can't say I have experienced anything like this studying for IAM/Rospa. Maybe I'm less sensitive or maybe you got unlucky, can't tell. As an Observer I can tell you I don't do any chest puffing but I DON'T pull any punches when it comes to telling people what their driving faults are. If you aren't clear and precise about what is wrong and what must be done to change it how can an Associate possibly improve! It is never a personal insult - simply a description of what must be done.

To be honest I've never had an Associate take this constructive criticism badly, either, although the odd middle aged bloke has looked a little crestfallen..

Ah that's OK then. I'm not middle aged; I'm even worse!.

But seriously, I do largely sympathise with SM's view of this, but we have to remember that not all Observers and tutors are the same. It needs both Observer/tutor and Associate/pupil to approach this in a fairly even handed way in order to minimise conflicts, which will inevitably be a handicap for both of them if it happens.

Given that Observers are very kindly making their time and expertise available for no payment, I think it's a shame if some of their effort, and their pupils' time, turns out to be wasted.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Edited by TripleS on Tuesday 27th November 12:43

[Vaux]

timskipper said:

Not to mention HPC bum-chums.

I heard HPC drivers were pretty good?

[timskipper]

Vaux said:

timskipper said:

Not to mention HPC bum-chums.

I heard HPC drivers were pretty good?

I've no doubt there are excellent drivers in HPC, just like there are excellent drivers who don't feel the need to congregate in self-congratulatory groups of chest-puffers, such as HPC, IAM, RoSPA et al.

Although I am amused an amateur club is rated higher (by whomever created that diagram) than most of the recognised purveyors of road safety (haha).

[Don]

Vaux said:

timskipper said:

Not to mention HPC bum-chums.

I heard HPC drivers were pretty good?

Can't swear to all of them but a chap at the Porsche Club I know who is an HPC member was a truly excellent driver. I enjoyed a few passenger laps with him at Bedford Autodrome and he was smoooth as silk and faaaast as f**k.

His road driving looked to be excellent too.

[supermono]

Don said:

Vaux said:

timskipper said:

Not to mention HPC bum-chums.

I heard HPC drivers were pretty good?

Can't swear to all of them but a chap at the Porsche Club I know who is an HPC member was a truly excellent driver. I enjoyed a few passenger laps with him at Bedford Autodrome and he was smoooth as silk and faaaast as f**k.

His road driving looked to be excellent too.

Cool. Did he know that braking into a corner is dumb?

SM

[Don]

supermono said:

Don said:

Vaux said:

timskipper said:

Not to mention HPC bum-chums.

I heard HPC drivers were pretty good?

Can't swear to all of them but a chap at the Porsche Club I know who is an HPC member was a truly excellent driver. I enjoyed a few passenger laps with him at Bedford Autodrome and he was smoooth as silk and faaaast as f**k.

His road driving looked to be excellent too.

Cool. Did he know that braking into a corner is dumb?

SM

Why yes he did as a matter of fact. Along with a host of other useful to know things...

SM. What's your beef here? Have you been along to something and decided it was not for you? Met some old codger with no manners and thought it was typical or something?

Here's the thing though. The IAM is a road safety charity. Its about providing driver training to anyone who asks to get them up to a set level. The System of Car Control (the police driving method) as covered in Roadcraft is at its heart. If you haven't read it yet (you may well have) I'd suggest reading it. Particularly the first chapter. The IAM is about providing dirt cheap instruction to anyone who wants it. The aim is not to train individual drivers up to their potential - its to train as many as possible up to a decent minimum standard - significantly beyond DSA L test level - and probably not as rigourously, say, as the Cardington Special test. Saving lives one driver at a a time.

The HPC are a driving club - they're very different. They are just like a Golf Club that insists on members haveing a set handicap level or better to join. To join you have to go on an expensive course - thousands - but the benefits are things like an insurance policy that covers you to drive all member's cars and a LOT of driving events. The HPC need to insist on their (very high) standard or these events could not go ahead as I understand it. I'm not a HPC member but do fancy it. Hey - I'll need some instruction to be good enough, no doubt. The HPC are about benefits for their members. Its a different thing.

I've also passengers with drivers who could pass an IAM test tomorrow if they wanted - but never have. The IAM isn't the only way to be an excellent driver. But it IS a good start. Plenty left after.

It may not be for you. But I expect it will be good for the OP. In my experience there are few drivers who do not get something out of it.

Perhaps you'd be one of the one who only needed to "tick the box"? Who knows? But the only way you can prove it is to DO it.

If you don't like the IAM's way of doing things then join up, pass your test, do the Observer training, become an Observer and do it better. That's what I'm trying to do...

[BOF]

" Saving lives one driver at a time."

Don,

I think you are getting a bit simplistic here?

Maybe an age thing, but I am no longer young enough to know it all.

BOF

Edited by BOF on Tuesday 27th November 18:22

[Don]

BOF said:

" Saving lives one driver at a time."

Don,

I think you are getting a bit simplistic here?

Maybe an age thing, but I am no longer young enough to know it all.

BOF

That's the problem with driving. The more you find out. The more you find out you don't know.

Its the same for a lot of disciplines...took up bloody Golf last year..

[timskipper]

Don said:

took up bloody Golf last year..

That sounds like a lot more fun than the regular game. Can you combine it with an IAM outing and kill two birds with one stone, so to speak?

[BOF]

""That's the problem with driving. The more you find out. The more you find out you don't know.""

Hole in one pal!

As Gary Player said "The more I practise, the luckier I get"

BOF

Edited by BOF on Tuesday 27th November 18:54

[1950trevorP]

May I recommend to the OP one of the "Driving Tips" from someone who teaches:-

http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs03.htm

Standard disclaimer.

And anyone who disagrees - please aim your dissent at Julian Smith, not me.

[supermono]

Don said:

what's my beef

then

Don and BOF said:

some chummy self congratulatory back patting

It's this sort of cliqueness (if there's a word!) that just makes you guys sometimes come over as a bit pompass. Maybe I just have a problem with being an outsider when I'm looking into a group of people. I guess you're bound to have a certain amout of familiarity with each other and treat a know-nothing like me and other "associates" as dumb until you discover otherwise.

Maybe I'll give it a go then, with a view to improving the old wheelsmanship. Who's around Norwich to do me an IAM thing?



SM

[1950trevorP]

supermono said:

Who's around Norwich to do me an IAM thing?

Here you go:-

http://www.nnam.org/

[Vaux]

supermono said:

It's this sort of cliqueness (if there's a word!) that just makes you guys sometimes come over as a bit pompass. Maybe I just have a problem with being an outsider when I'm looking into a group of people. I guess you're bound to have a certain amout of familiarity with each other and treat a know-nothing like me and other "associates" as dumb until you discover otherwise.

How do you know it's cliquey if you don't join? You're not basing this concept on a few people posting on here are you? Some Observers can be a bit regimented and structured - if you don't get on with the "style", get another Observer. Take what you want out of the course and move on.
You don't have to attend the monthly meetings (now, this is where you can really see the group performing at its best ....).

[TripleS]

1950trevorP said:

May I recommend to the OP one of the "Driving Tips" from someone who teaches:-

http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs03.htm

Standard disclaimer.

And anyone who disagrees - please aim your dissent at Julian Smith, not me.

That's another nice article by Julian and it explains things pretty well, I would say.

Even so, I'm still unhappy with the idea that you can't brake at all in a corner or bend. You certainly need to be aware of the effects, but done on the odd occasion in the right circumstances and not taken to excess, I find it works satisfactorily.

If anybody feels the need to rule it out completely, for fear of instability, so be it; but I don't.

Sorry to be awkward, again!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[vonhosen]

TripleS said:

1950trevorP said:

May I recommend to the OP one of the "Driving Tips" from someone who teaches:-

http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs03.htm

Standard disclaimer.

And anyone who disagrees - please aim your dissent at Julian Smith, not me.

That's another nice article by Julian and it explains things pretty well, I would say.

Even so, I'm still unhappy with the idea that you can't brake at all in a corner or bend. You certainly need to be aware of the effects, but done on the odd occasion in the right circumstances and not taken to excess, I find it works satisfactorily.

If anybody feels the need to rule it out completely, for fear of instability, so be it; but I don't.

Sorry to be awkward, again!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Who's advocating never braking in a curved path ever ?

[BOF]

supermono said:

Don said:

what's my beef

then

Don and BOF said:

some chummy self congratulatory back patting

It's this sort of cliqueness (if there's a word!) that just makes you guys sometimes come over as a bit pompass. Maybe I just have a problem with being an outsider when I'm looking into a group of people. I guess you're bound to have a certain amout of familiarity with each other and treat a know-nothing like me and other "associates" as dumb until you discover otherwise.

Maybe I'll give it a go then, with a view to improving the old wheelsmanship. Who's around Norwich to do me an IAM thing?



SM

SM,

""Maybe I'll give it a go then, with a view to improving the old wheelsmanship. Who's around Norwich to do me an IAM thing?""

I might be excommunicated for this...but I have not been to a meeting in the last 4 or 5 years...I did £700ish worth of HPC training with John Lyon (worth every penny) but did not have any interest in joining cliques or being bored to bloody tears by anal plonkers who have no other interest in life than talking about how good they are.

I have never met Don, Trevor, or Von...so you are NOT outside a group of people who regard you as dumb...I have said a few times that some of my Associates are better drivers than me...we simply try to introduce the 'SYSTEM'...I learn a lot from some of the Associates I drive with...latest yesterday at 10AM in a nice ALFA.

As Don said, 'Maybe saving one life at a time' ...

Beats the sh1t out of Trevor or Von having to knock on a door with bad news...come and join us...ANY discussion or argument on further education is worthwhile.

BOF