Need some help with my driving

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

TripleS said:

1950trevorP said:

May I recommend to the OP one of the "Driving Tips" from someone who teaches:-

http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs03.htm

Standard disclaimer.

And anyone who disagrees - please aim your dissent at Julian Smith, not me.

That's another nice article by Julian and it explains things pretty well, I would say.

Even so, I'm still unhappy with the idea that you can't brake at all in a corner or bend. You certainly need to be aware of the effects, but done on the odd occasion in the right circumstances and not taken to excess, I find it works satisfactorily.

If anybody feels the need to rule it out completely, for fear of instability, so be it; but I don't.

Sorry to be awkward, again!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Who's advocating never braking in a curved path ever ?

Well nobody has gone that far, but it has been described as 'dumb' to brake into a corner, and to me that sounded a bit too rigid and dogmatic - but I might be wrong.

Yes I know it's extremely unlikely, but it can happen.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BOF]

Dave,

""Well nobody has gone that far, but it has been described as 'dumb' to brake into a corner, and to me that sounded a bit too rigid and dogmatic""

Sounding rigid and dogmatic - and supercilious and condescending -comes with the cardigan, I am afraid.

But, still beats the out of funerals?

Best I can do pal.

BOF.

[Don]

BOF said:

But, still beats the out of funerals?

Sorry, I shouldn't have found that funny. And I agree with you, BOF, but all the same...

Edited by Don on Wednesday 28th November 22:37

[trackdemon]

Earlier someone talked of having spent pax time with an excellent driver who did not brake into a corner either on track or on road. I find this a strange stance - trail braking into a corner is nigh essential on track, especially in road cars with their soft springs & high mass to manouvre.... I'm sure the on track reasons don't need covering.

On road I would say I brake into a corner (when driving briskly) at least 60% of the time. Now, when I say 'I brake into a corner' I should perhaps clarify that what I do is apply medium braking in a straight line and taper the braking force as I start to turn in - effectively blending the braking & steering force to balance the load on the front tyres. This gives a nice secure turn in, and I keep my foot hovering over the brake pedal until my view through the corner is clear which means less reaction time to maximum braking if needed.

The only time I would turn into a corner without braking is if (a) the current speed in insufficient to benefit from trail braking - normally a lift will suffice (b) I'm driving 'normally' - ie nowhere near the dynamic limits

So I think its clear that my standpoint goes a long way against the mantra of 'braking into a corner is dumb' but rather the opposite. There are clear dynamic car control benefits to trail braking, and as mentioned your reaction time midcorner is shortened considerably if it becomes necessary. It goes without saying that the overriding factor is visibility.

[TripleS]

BOF said:

Dave,

""Well nobody has gone that far, but it has been described as 'dumb' to brake into a corner, and to me that sounded a bit too rigid and dogmatic""

Sounding rigid and dogmatic - and supercilious and condescending -comes with the cardigan, I am afraid.

But, still beats the out of funerals?

Best I can do pal.

BOF.

Well I'm sure you'll stick by what you think is right, but try not to get too hung up on rigid thinking.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

trackdemon said:

Earlier someone talked of having spent pax time with an excellent driver who did not brake into a corner either on track or on road. I find this a strange stance - trail braking into a corner is nigh essential on track, especially in road cars with their soft springs & high mass to manouvre.... I'm sure the on track reasons don't need covering.

On road I would say I brake into a corner (when driving briskly) at least 60% of the time. Now, when I say 'I brake into a corner' I should perhaps clarify that what I do is apply medium braking in a straight line and taper the braking force as I start to turn in - effectively blending the braking & steering force to balance the load on the front tyres. This gives a nice secure turn in, and I keep my foot hovering over the brake pedal until my view through the corner is clear which means less reaction time to maximum braking if needed.

The only time I would turn into a corner without braking is if (a) the current speed in insufficient to benefit from trail braking - normally a lift will suffice (b) I'm driving 'normally' - ie nowhere near the dynamic limits

So I think its clear that my standpoint goes a long way against the mantra of 'braking into a corner is dumb' but rather the opposite. There are clear dynamic car control benefits to trail braking, and as mentioned your reaction time midcorner is shortened considerably if it becomes necessary. It goes without saying that the overriding factor is visibility.

I don't do any track driving, and I'm reluctant to draw too much of a parallel between track driving and road driving, but there is a bit of overlap between the two regimes and this is an example of it.

All I'm saying is that braking into a corner or bend should not be ruled out completely. If it is done in suitable situations and in a considered manner, it works OK.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[1950trevorP]

Gentlemen,

I am sure there are some very skilful drivers on this Forum , who are familiar with what I shall call “very advanced techniques”.
Be they “advanced road” or “race” techniques.

Indeed, at HPC level a knowledge of Heel/Toe is a requirement.

But the question is not, I feel, what we (sometimes?) do – rather it is, I feel, what should be taught – especially to someone asking “where do I start?”.

I recommend the “Julian Smith” approach.

When that has been taken on-board, we can (if there is a wish) discuss further techniques?

[pdV6]

Vaux said:

BOF said:

This is a kind of look at the 'ladder' (stands back for attack!)

Why is an IAM Observer higher up than RoADAR Gold?

From simply reading this thread, I would venture that the answer is: RoSPA Gold is just passing the basic RoSPA test with a good score whereas an IAM Observer has gone on to have further training and has attained a level sufficient to teach others to pass the IAM / RoSPA basic test.

[TripleS]

1950trevorP said:

Gentlemen,

I am sure there are some very skilful drivers on this Forum , who are familiar with what I shall call “very advanced techniques”.
Be they “advanced road” or “race” techniques.

Indeed, at HPC level a knowledge of Heel/Toe is a requirement.

But the question is not, I feel, what we (sometimes?) do – rather it is, I feel, what should be taught – especially to someone asking “where do I start?”.

I recommend the “Julian Smith” approach.

When that has been taken on-board, we can (if there is a wish) discuss further techniques?

Thank you, Trevor; that's fair enough.

Looking back at what Moose said originally, he recognised immediately that his mishap was caused by braking too hard into a corner, having arrived with excessive speed.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Vaux]

pdV6 said:

From simply reading this thread, I would venture that the answer is: RoSPA Gold is just passing the basic RoSPA test with a good score whereas an IAM Observer has gone on to have further training and has attained a level sufficient to teach others to pass the IAM / RoSPA basic test.

But the arrow is titled "Driver Skill Level". I'm not aware that IAM Observers have further driver skill level training? They might well be assessed on teaching skills, but that doesn't make them a more skilled driver?

[1950trevorP]

The "ladder" above is, I feel, too complicated.

My standard recommended "ladder" is:-

This year:- http://www.iam.org.uk/ (£85 or £75 if under 25)

(plenty of assistance available for that)

Next year:- http://www.roada.org.uk/

3rd year - do Roada again - but get Gold this time

4th year:- RideDrive or Cadence or http://www.drivingdevelopment.co.uk/

5th year:- Back to IAM again for Special Assessment

Do (1) and we then discuss (2) to (5)


This is naturally not exhaustive or proscriptive, but is enough to suggest average timescales because of the work needed to move up to the next "rung".


Others may (will?) have differing "labels" on their "rungs", but I believe the concept of progression to be sound.

[supermono]

BOF said:

Beats the sh1t out of Trevor or Von having to knock on a door with bad news...come and join us

Well if you're offering a vest of invincibility, sign me up.

SM

[1950trevorP]

supermono said:

Well if you're offering a vest of invincibility,
sign me up.

'Fraid not.

In fact, believing yourself vulnerable is probably a good first step.

http://drivingattitudes.blogspot.com/

Is my 1-page alternative to Chapter 1.

Some may read that and say "that's just common sense"
Some may say "that's patronising"

Never know - just one may say "I must read the original"

[TripleS]

supermono said:

BOF said:

Beats the sh1t out of Trevor or Von having to knock on a door with bad news...come and join us

Well if you're offering a vest of invincibility, sign me up.

SM

Pooh, nothing so simple. Sign up with those fellows and it'll be a sheepskin Liberty Bodice as well.

Anyhow, give it a try and I hope all goes well. Do report back here though.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BOF]

TripleS said:

BOF said:

Dave,

""Well nobody has gone that far, but it has been described as 'dumb' to brake into a corner, and to me that sounded a bit too rigid and dogmatic""

Sounding rigid and dogmatic - and supercilious and condescending -comes with the cardigan, I am afraid.

But, still beats the out of funerals?

Best I can do pal.

BOF.

Well I'm sure you'll stick by what you think is right, but try not to get too hung up on rigid thinking.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Dave,

As I have tried to explain, my initial comment was maybe a bit abrupt...I have been reprimanded/advised more than once for giving advice that might have been better to have been given later.

I have taken this aboard and modified my observing...I learned something about this in the last two years.

Regarding 'rigid thinking'...I failed the IAM Test in 1966...got back in 1999, and have done Senior Observer, a bit with John Lyon,
Silver with Rospa and subsequently Gold on three occassions....and a day on Brands Hatch with a punter I trained for the IAM Test...I am currently Observing with his wife and he has his kid lined up for me around April 2008.

My 'rigid thinking' is such that I did the SA last month...with a lot of advice and preparation from serving and retired Class 1 Trafpols...as stated above, I was disappointed at my drive so will have another go next year...

Trust me, the minute I think I am a 'good driver' is when I might become a 'rigid thinker'...and I will quit.

In the meantime, I think we might have a new convert!

BOF.

[TripleS]

OK, thanks for that, BOF.

Are we pals again now?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BOF]

TripleS said:

OK, thanks for that, BOF.

Are we pals again now?

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Dave,

Of course we are pals, all we have done is to have a discussion on one aspect of safe driving, read the opinions of others, and responded with our personal experiences.

In this thread, I think we might have got Moose, Daniel and even supermono thinking about maybe taking some further driving education...which will add to their safety and enjoyment of driving?

Best Wishes Pal,

BOF

[mph999]

pdV6 said:

Vaux said:

BOF said:

This is a kind of look at the 'ladder' (stands back for attack!)

Why is an IAM Observer higher up than RoADAR Gold?

From simply reading this thread, I would venture that the answer is: RoSPA Gold is just passing the basic RoSPA test with a good score whereas an IAM Observer has gone on to have further training and has attained a level sufficient to teach others to pass the IAM / RoSPA basic test.

Strongly disagree - RoSPA Gold is way way above IAM senior, I base this on the fact that I know of a no. of IAM seniors that only have RoSPA silver. Only just passing RoSPA is Bronze, a good to very good drive is silver and a drive with few "faults" and none "major" is Gold.

Martin

[BOF]

Martin,

""RoSPA Gold is way way above IAM senior""

From personal experience, I completely agree with you ( I would...wouldn't I?)

Why?

Many of the punters I have helped to do the IAM course have, hopefully, become safer drivers...some will have 'Skill for Life'...others will tell their mates that they are 'Advanced Drivers' in the pub...and leave it at that.

The importance for me about RoSPA ( I am not a RoSPA Observer)...is the three year re test...I think IAM should copy this, but wonder how many of the pub Muppets would come back and actually do it?

I did not create the chart that I posted...I just look at it occassionaly and envy the PC 1s who got paid for being trained to the highest standards anywhere (Hendon or Tulliallan???)

BOF -

PS...Grades...

Gold
This grade is recognised as the highest driving award available to the public. It will be awarded only to the polished systematic driver, who displays a complete understanding and appropriate application of the principles outlined in Roadcraft. The candidate will display a confidence and ability throughout the whole test which leads the examiner to consider that, if given the opportunity the candidate has the potential with the basics already in place to do well on a police advanced course. The candidate's performance must be consistent throughout the whole of the test and so any lapses may result in a lower grade. Awards of this grade must therefore be reserved for the very best drivers.




Silver
This grade will be awarded to drivers who are well above the average. These drivers will produce consistently safe and systematic drives but perhaps without the final polish, flair and smoothness of the Gold driver. They will demonstrate a thorough knowledge of the system of car control. Candidates must be able to drive up to the permitted speed limit where it is safe to do so but vary speed according to circumstances and conditions. It must be emphasised that Silver is an extremely high grade and a commendable achievement.

Bronze
This grade will be awarded to drivers whose driving performance is significantly above the standard required to pass the 'L' driving test. These drivers will show a basic knowledge of Roadcraft but lack the ability to apply the system consistently throughout the test. The drive should be entirely safe, observing traffic signs, responding correctly to hazards and should display advanced driving techniques.


Candidates who fall below the minimum pass will be classified as 'fail'.

Once you have passed your test, you will be required to maintain your standard of driving by taking a re-test every three years – this is free to Members. When your retest is due we shall send you a reminder and booking form. You must take your retest within a reasonable time of the due date in order to keep your Membership.

Edited by BOF on Saturday 1st December 19:00