Milking the cow?
Discussion
But that's just inflexible thinking.
As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
Edited by Jungles on Friday 11th January 01:42
Jungles said:
But that's just inflexible thinking.
As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
Of course the techniques can be & are mixed depending on what's best for the circumstances.As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
Edited by Jungles on Friday 11th January 01:42
However the custodians of Roadcraft are a disciplined service & a disciplined service will have it's own reasons for sometimes being rather more prescriptive than others.
Any other organisation or individual when looking at Roadcraft can take or leave what they want from it, because it wasn't written for them or with them in mind.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 11th January 07:15
vonhosen said:
Jungles said:
But that's just inflexible thinking.
As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
Of course the techniques can be & are mixed depending on what's best for the circumstances.As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
Edited by Jungles on Friday 11th January 01:42
However the custodians of Roadcraft are a disciplined service & a disciplined service will have it's own reasons for sometimes being rather more prescriptive than others.
Any other organisation or individual when looking at Roadcraft can take or leave what they want from it, because it wasn't written for them or with them in mind.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 11th January 07:15
This thread is about a non-police/ambulance/fire (I presume) driver who is curious about steering techniques, and therefore my posts and its gripes are written with such drivers in mind.
Obviously, drivers who wish to meet qualification standards for police/fire/ambulance driving can expect to adhere to specific requirements of that standard. I've no gripes about that issue.
The problem is when those specific requirements are carried over into applications other than the unique requirements of police/ambulance/fire vehicle operations, and then taught to the general public as though the specified methods and techniques are the only correct way to drive.
On the topic of steering, Roadcraft prescribes pull-push as the recommended method of steering for the purposes of the book, which is to teach police drivers. No problems with that. The thing I believe is problematic is when pull-push gets "pushed" as the only correct method for purposes other than teaching police drivers, when other methods of steering will serve perfectly fine.
Edited by Jungles on Friday 11th January 12:11
Jungles, I think you and VH are in violent agreement. VH doesn't push the "roadcraft" method as the only way, just that it is the way for certain groups of people.
He has said that there are specific reasons for the custodians of roadcraft to be prescriptive. I suggested earlier why that might be. It would be interesting to hear from VH what his view of the reasons are.
IMV it is becuase they require:
a system that is good enough
consistent teachability
consistent testability
How close is that VH?
This is very much an example of "the best" being the enemy of "good enough".
Bert
He has said that there are specific reasons for the custodians of roadcraft to be prescriptive. I suggested earlier why that might be. It would be interesting to hear from VH what his view of the reasons are.
IMV it is becuase they require:
a system that is good enough
consistent teachability
consistent testability
How close is that VH?
This is very much an example of "the best" being the enemy of "good enough".
Bert
Jungles said:
vonhosen said:
Jungles said:
But that's just inflexible thinking.
As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
Of course the techniques can be & are mixed depending on what's best for the circumstances.As I said before, fixed grip and hand-over-hand are one and the same technique. If your fixed grip is getting too twisted, you go hand-over-hand. That was how the method has always been applied before some boffins decided to separate the two and put them into ill-fitting boxes.
Same thing with pull-push. You can pull for a some degree of rotation and switch to fixed-grip. Or use pull-push and switch to hand-over-hand.
I really dislike the way these methods get boxed separately from each other. If you're even a halfway decent driver, you should be able to mix and match any method. It's just that institutions like the IAM have over-formalised various steering methods, so that a lot of its members and adherents to the Roadcraft system have been indoctrinated into thinking that a driver must choose one method over the others (I know this is a broad generalisation, but as a rank outsider looking into this very unique British driving culture, I can't help but feel frustrated at this apparent rigidity).
Edited by Jungles on Friday 11th January 01:42
However the custodians of Roadcraft are a disciplined service & a disciplined service will have it's own reasons for sometimes being rather more prescriptive than others.
Any other organisation or individual when looking at Roadcraft can take or leave what they want from it, because it wasn't written for them or with them in mind.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 11th January 07:15
This thread is about a non-police/ambulance/fire (I presume) driver who is curious about steering techniques, and therefore my posts and its gripes are written with such drivers in mind.
Obviously, drivers who wish to meet qualification standards for police/fire/ambulance driving can expect to adhere to specific requirements of that standard. I've no gripes about that issue.
The problem is when those specific requirements are carried over into applications other than the unique requirements of police/ambulance/fire vehicle operations, and then taught to the general public as though the specified methods and techniques are the only correct way to drive.
On the topic of steering, Roadcraft prescribes pull-push as the recommended method of steering for the purposes of the book, which is to teach police drivers. No problems with that. The thing I believe is problematic is when pull-push gets "pushed" as the only correct method for purposes other than teaching police drivers, when other methods of steering will serve perfectly fine.
Police are taught other methods too, if their role requires it.
Any other organisation or individuals practices are their concern, they needn't be as prescriptive, it's their choice.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 11th January 16:51
WilliBetz said:
vonhosen said:
However the custodians of Roadcraft are a disciplined service & a disciplined service will have it's own reasons for sometimes being rather more prescriptive than others.
Has the best practice review of steering technique started yet?My views ...
Personally I prefere pull/push for slower driving and fixed grip for higher speeds. I almost never use "rotational" or crossed hands, why.
1. I was taught to use pull/push, then did IAM straight after basic test, so I'm used to it.
2. It is completey smooth
3. I (physically) stay more symetrical and so am not twisting in my seat, as one might with rotational.
4. On track, on the odd occassion I've gone sideways, pull/push worked for me, would then use "one hand rotational" if necessary.
I believe that the generally opposition to rotational by your average motorist (so not you lot) is that "they can't be bothered" to do it way they were taught as it makes them look like a learner, so like sheep they copy everyone else. I often see people getting themselves in a right knot when trying to steer, though I appreciate, if practised to a high standard, rotational can work.
I am curious as to how often (if ever) the steering method contributes to an accident.
Martin
Personally I prefere pull/push for slower driving and fixed grip for higher speeds. I almost never use "rotational" or crossed hands, why.
1. I was taught to use pull/push, then did IAM straight after basic test, so I'm used to it.
2. It is completey smooth
3. I (physically) stay more symetrical and so am not twisting in my seat, as one might with rotational.
4. On track, on the odd occassion I've gone sideways, pull/push worked for me, would then use "one hand rotational" if necessary.
I believe that the generally opposition to rotational by your average motorist (so not you lot) is that "they can't be bothered" to do it way they were taught as it makes them look like a learner, so like sheep they copy everyone else. I often see people getting themselves in a right knot when trying to steer, though I appreciate, if practised to a high standard, rotational can work.
I am curious as to how often (if ever) the steering method contributes to an accident.
Martin
mph999 said:
I am curious as to how often (if ever) the steering method contributes to an accident.
Martin
There are plenty of skidding accidents. It takes more than steering technique to recover from a big skidding scenario, but good steering technique is certainly an important part of it. Don Palmer (great limit handling and road driving coach) thinks good steering is the core of good driving - not saying I agree mind you.Martin
If novice drivers were taught how to steer using pull/push properly in the first place, I think we might see more evidence of the technique being used post-test. Unfortunately, so many instructors teach novices to nibble and shuffle 
which is far from efficient – the novice passes the test and chucks away the nibbling and shuffling for another method that they’ve seen other people using - (probably by watching family and friends). They can wind steering on rotationally far quicker than using nibble, nibble – but probably for biomechanical reasons, they don’t seem able to use a controlled method of unwinding it and end up over steering on to their new course and having to add corrections.
If teaching pull/push is deemed the acceptable way for novices to learn, then let’s teach them properly. For those who learn kinaesthetically, then an occasional demonstration from the instructor would help (as long as he/she is a worthy exponent of the art).
Once pull/push becomes a natural way of controlling the steering, then you can incorporate other methods. But, if we can’t get across the benefits of the method (and lots of other countries disagree with our policy) then we should press the governing bodies to accept one or all of the alternatives as being perfectly acceptable.
Personally, I’ll use whichever method will give me the best control and thankfully Mr Palmer likes my steering
which is far from efficient – the novice passes the test and chucks away the nibbling and shuffling for another method that they’ve seen other people using - (probably by watching family and friends). They can wind steering on rotationally far quicker than using nibble, nibble – but probably for biomechanical reasons, they don’t seem able to use a controlled method of unwinding it and end up over steering on to their new course and having to add corrections.If teaching pull/push is deemed the acceptable way for novices to learn, then let’s teach them properly. For those who learn kinaesthetically, then an occasional demonstration from the instructor would help (as long as he/she is a worthy exponent of the art).
Once pull/push becomes a natural way of controlling the steering, then you can incorporate other methods. But, if we can’t get across the benefits of the method (and lots of other countries disagree with our policy) then we should press the governing bodies to accept one or all of the alternatives as being perfectly acceptable.
Personally, I’ll use whichever method will give me the best control and thankfully Mr Palmer likes my steering
Hi all,
My experience of advanced driving was that pull-push was one of the first things taught. I'd rather it was one of the last. It's easier to sell the benefits of improved observation, for example, than a steering technique associated with learner drivers.
mph999 said:
... I believe that the generally opposition to rotational by your average motorist (so not you lot) is that "they can't be bothered" to do it way they were taught as it makes them look like a learner ...
mph999 has hit the nail on the head. Who wants to look like a learner? Changing their steering is one of the first things new drivers do, for this very reason. In a small way, this makes it harder to market advanced driving. Pull-push steering has negative connotations for many people. On Top Gear, Clarkson referred to the IAM as the "wheel shufflers" in a derogatory tone.My experience of advanced driving was that pull-push was one of the first things taught. I'd rather it was one of the last. It's easier to sell the benefits of improved observation, for example, than a steering technique associated with learner drivers.
vonhosen said:
... Police are taught other methods too, if their role requires it. Any other organisation or individuals practices are their concern, they needn't be as prescriptive, it's their choice.
What other methods are taught to the police then?Edited by SVS on Saturday 12th January 12:47
mph999 said:
I believe that the generally opposition to rotational by your average motorist (so not you lot) is that ... it makes them look like a learner
I suspect you're right. As far as I can see from drivers around me, there are only two socially acceptable ways to hold the steering wheel. If you're under about 25, it has to be right hand on the wheel at about 12 o'clock, left hand on the gear lever. If you're older than that it has to be right elbow leaning on the window sill, with the right hand half-heartedly holding the wheel, elbow comes off the door to palm the wheel round in tight corners, left hand kept available to play with the phone/stereo/satnav.SVS said:
vonhosen said:
... Police are taught other methods too, if their role requires it. Any other organisation or individuals practices are their concern, they needn't be as prescriptive, it's their choice.
What other methods are taught to the police then?It depends on the role you are performing.
vonhosen said:
SVS said:
What other methods are taught to the police then?
Rotational, fixed input, palming, you name it.It depends on the role you are performing.
Maybe I've been blind and my sudden interest has made me a bit more observant on these matters but I think I've found/seen a new method:
Grasp inside of steering wheel with your palm upwards and pull in desired direction, grasp outer top of steering wheel with opposite hand and pull in the same direction; repeat.
I've practiced this a couple of times but it seems this technique is way too advanced for me and I absolutely fail to see:
1. How they manage this.
2. How they started down this path.
Grasp inside of steering wheel with your palm upwards and pull in desired direction, grasp outer top of steering wheel with opposite hand and pull in the same direction; repeat.
I've practiced this a couple of times but it seems this technique is way too advanced for me and I absolutely fail to see:
1. How they manage this.
2. How they started down this path.
Edited by naetype on Monday 14th January 00:19
naetype said:
Grasp inside of steering wheel with your palm upwards and pull in desired direction, grasp outer top of steering wheel with opposite hand and pull in the same direction; repeat.
That is one of my pet peeves.It probably originated from older buses and trucks that had very large, almost horizontal steering wheels and needed a lot of torque to turn. Your arm is structurally strongest when your palm is facing up and/or across your body, and this makes it easier to pull the wheel around and toward yourself.
However, since the method limits movement of the arm around the wheel itself, it should be avoided. Plus with proper seating, one need never to do such a thing regardless of which steering technique, pull-push or hand-over-hand.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 14th January 10:46
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