Traction and Stability Control Systems
Discussion
What do we think about modern electronic traction and stability systems? I ask because, given that my front tyres are now down to about 3mm of tread and the roads are wet, greasy and occasionally icy, I’m staggered at the way my humble 6 months old Astra copes.
In the summer I just thought that the 45 section tyres had bags of grip but as the conditions deteriorated it became clear that the traction control was doing its thing (albeit generally without the dashboard light illuminating). Through a process of careful experimentation, I’ve established that I can apply full throttle in 2nd out of a wet roundabout and all that happens is that the car steers true, the tyres grip and the drama factor is zero. It’s as if there is a really effective limited slip diff between the front wheels. Switch out the traction control, however, and the merest hint of throttle at similar speeds results in massive wheelspin.
On a road covered in thick frost, with the TC out, really gentle throttle was essential to climb a shallow hill. The instance it was switched back on, however, full throttle provided slow but steady acceleration. Remarkable!
The downside to all this is that one has virtually no idea of how near the limits the car is and as we all know, however clever the electronics, the laws of physics relating to momentum are not to be denied! Trouble is, the electronic safety nets are so good, there is no reason to think about modulating the throttle to avoid breaking traction, a fact that I find rather worrying.
It’s a bit like ABS: when the first systems came out it was reckoned that a good driver could do better with cadence braking but modern ABS is unbeatable. I suspect the same is now true of traction control; on my car it’s so subtle that you are generally unaware it’s working and I very much doubt that you could drive as quickly without it.
On the other hand, I’m completely underwhelmed by the “sport” button on the dashboard. The only effect pushing this has is to give you full throttle when the pedal is halfway to the metal. It certainly makes the car feel superficially lively but it’s deceptive. Thinking that you’re only using half throttle you pull out to overtake, only to discover that the second half of the pedal travel makes no sodding difference! I prefer the more progressive action of the standard non sport setup.
Overall, though, it’s hard to argue that for most of us for most of the time, electronic TC and stability systems must make accidents much less likely. I just wish it didn’t mean more dumbing down of drivers who are already plenty dumb enough!
In the summer I just thought that the 45 section tyres had bags of grip but as the conditions deteriorated it became clear that the traction control was doing its thing (albeit generally without the dashboard light illuminating). Through a process of careful experimentation, I’ve established that I can apply full throttle in 2nd out of a wet roundabout and all that happens is that the car steers true, the tyres grip and the drama factor is zero. It’s as if there is a really effective limited slip diff between the front wheels. Switch out the traction control, however, and the merest hint of throttle at similar speeds results in massive wheelspin.
On a road covered in thick frost, with the TC out, really gentle throttle was essential to climb a shallow hill. The instance it was switched back on, however, full throttle provided slow but steady acceleration. Remarkable!
The downside to all this is that one has virtually no idea of how near the limits the car is and as we all know, however clever the electronics, the laws of physics relating to momentum are not to be denied! Trouble is, the electronic safety nets are so good, there is no reason to think about modulating the throttle to avoid breaking traction, a fact that I find rather worrying.
It’s a bit like ABS: when the first systems came out it was reckoned that a good driver could do better with cadence braking but modern ABS is unbeatable. I suspect the same is now true of traction control; on my car it’s so subtle that you are generally unaware it’s working and I very much doubt that you could drive as quickly without it.
On the other hand, I’m completely underwhelmed by the “sport” button on the dashboard. The only effect pushing this has is to give you full throttle when the pedal is halfway to the metal. It certainly makes the car feel superficially lively but it’s deceptive. Thinking that you’re only using half throttle you pull out to overtake, only to discover that the second half of the pedal travel makes no sodding difference! I prefer the more progressive action of the standard non sport setup.
Overall, though, it’s hard to argue that for most of us for most of the time, electronic TC and stability systems must make accidents much less likely. I just wish it didn’t mean more dumbing down of drivers who are already plenty dumb enough!
gdaybruce said:
It’s a bit like ABS: when the first systems came out it was reckoned that a good driver could do better with cadence braking but modern ABS is unbeatable. I suspect the same is now true of traction control; on my car it’s so subtle that you are generally unaware it’s working and I very much doubt that you could drive as quickly without it.
Perhaps for the conditions most city drivers frequently encounter anyway - however I often drive on surfaces where my ABS is worse than useless (gravel, snow, etc), I don't have TC etc (with 155 bhp and AWD theres no way I'd have any need for it), but I suspect that in those sort of conditions it would also be dangerous, cutting power right when you need it to get you out of trouble.Thats the biggest flaw with these 'driver aids' IMO, that they are programmed for the most common situations, but can't detect when the situation is outside those parameters to respond accordingly.
These systems are all for the good of those everday drivers.
Now, I remember D J saying, in a magazine, that the best roadcars, ie Supercars, were 10 years behind F1 cars.
That might not now be the case.
Let the F1 designers free.
Where are our active suspension, dual chassis cars?.
Iirc, Peter Stevens and Gordon Murray once argued that F1 cars should only be limited in design by being able to fit within a wire cage of a specified size.
All else being free.
Now, I remember D J saying, in a magazine, that the best roadcars, ie Supercars, were 10 years behind F1 cars.
That might not now be the case.
Let the F1 designers free.
Where are our active suspension, dual chassis cars?.
Iirc, Peter Stevens and Gordon Murray once argued that F1 cars should only be limited in design by being able to fit within a wire cage of a specified size.
All else being free.
GravelBen said:
gdaybruce said:
It’s a bit like ABS: when the first systems came out it was reckoned that a good driver could do better with cadence braking but modern ABS is unbeatable. I suspect the same is now true of traction control; on my car it’s so subtle that you are generally unaware it’s working and I very much doubt that you could drive as quickly without it.
Perhaps for the conditions most city drivers frequently encounter anyway - however I often drive on surfaces where my ABS is worse than useless (gravel, snow, etc), I don't have TC etc (with 155 bhp and AWD theres no way I'd have any need for it), but I suspect that in those sort of conditions it would also be dangerous, cutting power right when you need it to get you out of trouble.Thats the biggest flaw with these 'driver aids' IMO, that they are programmed for the most common situations, but can't detect when the situation is outside those parameters to respond accordingly.
ESP is as relevant to the sort of car you drive as to any other - AWD does not stop you understeering, or spinning after an emergency direction change.
You have described the one situation in which the electronic aids do not help. This is emergency braking on a loose surface where without ABS you would build up a wedge in front of the wheels. If you are very brave, in an ABS equipped car you can use the handbrake to do this, but the car will probably slew sideways, so in most cases you would be better keeping both hands on the wheel and trying to avoid any solid objects.
I had a scary moment in a 2.5l Omega going up the 1 in 3 hill by Hardnott Fort in the Lakes. The road was damp, so traction was low. Going up the hill, the TC cut in to avoid wheelspin - unfortunately in order to do this it dropped the revs to about 1000rpm, almost stalling the engine. By this time the nose of the car was pointing at the sky and I had gradually floored the throttle trying to get more revs.
The TC made it in the end, but it was quite unnerving having no control of the throttle at all!
Steve
The TC made it in the end, but it was quite unnerving having no control of the throttle at all!
Steve
I'm torn - I don't like the idea of them really, but all things considered, I'm sure they must help people stay safe. My mitsubishi has stability control that you can't even turn off, but to be honest you have to do something stupid to provoke it. I have taken it off road to experiment, and it does let you get away with doing idiot things. For example, 30mph, wind on full lock, put your foot to the floor in 2nd - and rather than understeering into a tree it just does its thing and turns. Similarly if you provoke a slide, it soon stops it and goes where you're pointing without fuss.
If I'm totally honest, it really doesn't impinge on my daily on road driving, because I wouldn't be sliding or spinning the front wheels around corners anyway. But I guess there is an argument that it could cushion people from learning to do things properly.
If I'm totally honest, it really doesn't impinge on my daily on road driving, because I wouldn't be sliding or spinning the front wheels around corners anyway. But I guess there is an argument that it could cushion people from learning to do things properly.
waremark said:
ESP is as relevant to the sort of car you drive as to any other - AWD does not stop you understeering, or spinning after an emergency direction change.
While thats true, in the conditions I was talking about you can often use a deliberate (usually temporary 
) loss of traction or stability to change the attitude or position of the car, for example swinging the back end around a tight corner where you would otherwise risk chronic understeer. Cases like that ESP would most likely interpret as a loss of control and try to prevent the car sliding, while in reality its the driver being in control which is causing the car to act that way. I'd rather me being in control of the car than a computer which doesn't know what I want the car to do.waremark said:
You have described the one situation in which the electronic aids do not help. This is emergency braking on a loose surface where without ABS you would build up a wedge in front of the wheels. If you are very brave, in an ABS equipped car you can use the handbrake to do this, but the car will probably slew sideways, so in most cases you would be better keeping both hands on the wheel and trying to avoid any solid objects.
Not just emergency braking but any moderately hard braking in my experience, especially when coming over crests or corrugations - there have been times I've had to use the handbrake due to the ABS getting flummoxed ie by corrugations approaching a downhill hairpin - so handbrake and put the car a bit sideways to scrub off the extra speed and set up for the corner. In some of those cases 'keeping both hands on the wheel and trying to avoid solid objects' would see you understeering off the corner quite terminally.I do agree that for the majority of drivers in the majority of conditions it can have benefits, though the inevitable dumbing-down sometimes becomes apparent when they venture away from 'civilised' road conditions and either crawl along at 5mph or do something stupid and crash. For me personally and the driving I do, I'm quite convinced I'm better off without them.
:thinks about pulling ABS fuse out: GravelBen said:
I'd rather me being in control of the car than a computer which doesn't know what I want the car to do.
Having now looked at the picture in your profile (sideways on the loose) I understand better where you are coming from. However, even on the loose I think the ESP will do a brilliant job of killing understeer and getting you round - so long as you tell it what you want the car to do by using lots of steering. But it certainly won't be as much fun as going round sideways, and possibly, but only possibly, it won't be as fast (a test-driver whose car-control was sublime said he was quicker with ESP than without it).
Anyone know whether rally cars are allowed to use ESP? If so, do they?
waremark said:
Anyone know whether rally cars are allowed to use ESP? If so, do they?
Not exactly the same as ESP, but active diffs in WRC can have similar effects transferring power between front/rear and left/right as needed, which seems to be preferred over using a system which brakes individual wheels to try and take control.Not sure about testing in loose stuff, but I recall Walter Rohrl saying he was quicker on track in a 911 (either GT3 or Turbo, I forget) with PSM (Porsches ESP) switched off as it cut power whenever a wheel was off the ground...
GravelBen said:
waremark said:
Anyone know whether rally cars are allowed to use ESP? If so, do they?
Not exactly the same as ESP, but active diffs in WRC can have similar effects transferring power between front/rear and left/right as needed, which seems to be preferred over using a system which brakes individual wheels to try and take control.Not sure about testing in loose stuff, but I recall Walter Rohrl saying he was quicker on track in a 911 (either GT3 or Turbo, I forget) with PSM (Porsches ESP) switched off as it cut power whenever a wheel was off the ground...
The Black Flash said:
I'm torn - I don't like the idea of them really, but all things considered, I'm sure they must help people stay safe. My mitsubishi has stability control that you can't even turn off, but to be honest you have to do something stupid to provoke it. I have taken it off road to experiment, and it does let you get away with doing idiot things. For example, 30mph, wind on full lock, put your foot to the floor in 2nd - and rather than understeering into a tree it just does its thing and turns. Similarly if you provoke a slide, it soon stops it and goes where you're pointing without fuss.
If I'm totally honest, it really doesn't impinge on my daily on road driving, because I wouldn't be sliding or spinning the front wheels around corners anyway. But I guess there is an argument that it could cushion people from learning to do things properly.
That's nicely expressed, if I may say so, and it makes a lot of sense to me.If I'm totally honest, it really doesn't impinge on my daily on road driving, because I wouldn't be sliding or spinning the front wheels around corners anyway. But I guess there is an argument that it could cushion people from learning to do things properly.
I have never known whether or not ESP has been fitted to any car I've driven, and hardly ever have I felt an ABS system become active, and even that's only happened on icy surfaces. My education must be seriously lacking.
To my mind one of the dangers of these systems - helpful though they can be in emergencies - is that we may come to expect too much of them. So long as we remain dependant on tyres gripping road surfaces, arriving at a hazard with grossly excessive speed is still going to land us in trouble.
I don't find it worrying.
All cars I've driven with ESP,ABS etc have very obvious visual, audible or tactile warnings that the system is in operation.
-The brake pedal pulses when ABS is activated.
-A light flashes when traction control is triggered.
-A light flahes and you get knocking sounds when ESP is triggered.
That way, if you overstep the limits you can be told about if without ending up in hospital. Drivers that choose to ignore those signs will live to crash another day.
All cars I've driven with ESP,ABS etc have very obvious visual, audible or tactile warnings that the system is in operation.
-The brake pedal pulses when ABS is activated.
-A light flashes when traction control is triggered.
-A light flahes and you get knocking sounds when ESP is triggered.
That way, if you overstep the limits you can be told about if without ending up in hospital. Drivers that choose to ignore those signs will live to crash another day.
To you guys talking about ESP and gravel - ESP was never designed to work with gravel surfaces - that's why decent systems have an off button.
I don't think being a driving enthusiast cuts any mustard either. I've driven with hundreds of enthusiasts and there's very few I've seen that can drive well at a cars limits (and I don't include myself in that list). Normally enthusiast just means that they'll crash more often and at a higher speed
I don't think being a driving enthusiast cuts any mustard either. I've driven with hundreds of enthusiasts and there's very few I've seen that can drive well at a cars limits (and I don't include myself in that list). Normally enthusiast just means that they'll crash more often and at a higher speed
Having a daily driver pushing out 635bhp and 670ftlbs peak it would be practically impossible to drive safely in all conditions without traction control.
However the std system was so poor it sometimes reacted far too late with such a large cut it would make the situation worse.
As my GF uses the car an aftermarket system was fitted and that has totally transformed the car, making it impossible to `misread` the conditions.
I know, don`t place your faith in these type of systems, you all cry.
A point well made.
But consider this.... every time you step on a Aircraft you are trusting your life to systems far more complex and invasive. And impossible to override!!!!!!
However the std system was so poor it sometimes reacted far too late with such a large cut it would make the situation worse.
As my GF uses the car an aftermarket system was fitted and that has totally transformed the car, making it impossible to `misread` the conditions.
I know, don`t place your faith in these type of systems, you all cry.
A point well made.
But consider this.... every time you step on a Aircraft you are trusting your life to systems far more complex and invasive. And impossible to override!!!!!!
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