Question for the EMT/Paras
Discussion
I was instructed by my paramedic colleague( Not my FBA/CTE I might add) to have a 'steady' blue light run in not using sirens. Now this is a no no as i am a trainee paramedic but I still turned them off as much as possible to respect paramedics wishes, but needed them on to get through junctions etc (It was 11am). When i got to hospital, paramedic was fine with me but said that sirens have been known to set of fits which is what original call was and should of not used them. Only problem I have is the liability issue if crash at my stage of my career without sirens on. Tried to be best of both turning them off when road is clear but still pedestrians etc about. Was just looking for peoples opinions on this?
Do you have to take an advanced driving course as part of your training? Either in a work's car or the Ambulance?
If you have not, I would suggest that you suggest it to them, so that it may improve everyone's observation and planning skills allowing you to use the sirens less. Though in any case, if a pedestrian doesn't know you're there and needs to, I personally think it's better to have one person on the way to hospital instead of two. I would use them if necessary and explain why later.
If you are able to move in to the middle of the road at any point where there are hazards present (which would necessitate the sirens), I would, though this depends entirely on all the circumstances.
Cheers,
Andy
P.S I hope everyone's alright!
If you have not, I would suggest that you suggest it to them, so that it may improve everyone's observation and planning skills allowing you to use the sirens less. Though in any case, if a pedestrian doesn't know you're there and needs to, I personally think it's better to have one person on the way to hospital instead of two. I would use them if necessary and explain why later.
If you are able to move in to the middle of the road at any point where there are hazards present (which would necessitate the sirens), I would, though this depends entirely on all the circumstances.
Cheers,
Andy
P.S I hope everyone's alright!
Ruskie said:
I was instructed by my paramedic colleague( Not my FBA/CTE I might add) to have a 'steady' blue light run in not using sirens. Now this is a no no as i am a trainee paramedic but I still turned them off as much as possible to respect paramedics wishes, but needed them on to get through junctions etc (It was 11am). When i got to hospital, paramedic was fine with me but said that sirens have been known to set of fits which is what original call was and should of not used them. Only problem I have is the liability issue if crash at my stage of my career without sirens on. Tried to be best of both turning them off when road is clear but still pedestrians etc about. Was just looking for peoples opinions on this?
Hmm, your training regime is rather lacking.Your employer should have a very specific manual, which includes your training for all eventualities.
What do we pay our taxes for?.
I think you should only listen to the advice of a trained superior who actually knows what they are talking about and is qualified to tell you what to do and follow the correct protocol at all times.
My local IAM group had a paramedic on the course last year. I believe that he had a good experience and passed.
My local IAM group had a paramedic on the course last year. I believe that he had a good experience and passed.
Appreciate the comments but do you honestly think that I am just driving on blue lights without having done a very through advanced driving course? It is not always black and white.
The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
hardcorehobbit said:
Just a quick question off topic actually, but how would I go about getting your job? I mean one like it obviously.
NHS jobs website to see what is available. In yorkshire they have phased out the technician role and are now using a student paramedic program which I am on and is heavily university based. You need A levels etc to get on it.EmmaP said:
I think you should only listen to the advice of a trained superior who actually knows what they are talking about and is qualified to tell you what to do and follow the correct protocol at all times.
My local IAM group had a paramedic on the course last year. I believe that he had a good experience and passed.
I am fully aware of the correct protocol as I have stated but one thing that you quickly learn is the reality of working in the road is completely different outside of training school.My local IAM group had a paramedic on the course last year. I believe that he had a good experience and passed.
So drive without sirens and risk an accident or drive with them on and risk the 2YO in the back having a recurrence of a potentially life threatening fit? Not so black and white.
Ruskie said:
[I am fully aware of the correct protocol as I have stated but one thing that you quickly learn is the reality of working in the road is completely different outside of training school.
So drive without sirens and risk an accident or drive with them on and risk the 2YO in the back having a recurrence of a potentially life threatening fit? Not so black and white.
Sorry! Only trying to help. I should have added that I know nothing of your job, so hence I suggested that you ask your superior.So drive without sirens and risk an accident or drive with them on and risk the 2YO in the back having a recurrence of a potentially life threatening fit? Not so black and white.
Ruskie said:
Appreciate the comments but do you honestly think that I am just driving on blue lights without having done a very through advanced driving course? It is not always black and white.
The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
If a collision is down to questionable actions on your part, you'll get the blame with blue lights on or not. If it's not down to your actions, you won't get the blame blue lights on or not.The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
Edited by vonhosen on Monday 21st January 22:44
Ruskie said:
Appreciate the comments but do you honestly think that I am just driving on blue lights without having done a very through advanced driving course? It is not always black and white.
The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
If a collision is down to questionable actions on your part, you'll get the blame with blue lights on or not. If it's not down to your actions, you won't get the blame blue lights on or not.The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
vonhosen said:
Ruskie said:
Appreciate the comments but do you honestly think that I am just driving on blue lights without having done a very through advanced driving course? It is not always black and white.
The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
If a collision is down to questionable actions on your part, you'll get the blame with blue lights on or not. If it's not down to your actions, you won't get the blame blue lights on or not.The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
vonhosen said:
If a collision is down to questionable actions on your part, you'll get the blame with blue lights on or not. If it's not down to your actions, you won't get the blame blue lights on or not.
To the OP, as I said in a previous post.
Your employer owes you a duty of care.
That means your training should equip you to decide for yourself.
If you feel it hasn't, you need to ask questions of one empowered to give the official answer.
Ultimately, you might have to face a Court to argue why your patient had greater rights than others.
Your patient, in the scheme of things, does not.
WhoseGeneration said:
vonhosen said:
If a collision is down to questionable actions on your part, you'll get the blame with blue lights on or not. If it's not down to your actions, you won't get the blame blue lights on or not.
To the OP, as I said in a previous post.
Your employer owes you a duty of care.
That means your training should equip you to decide for yourself.
If you feel it hasn't, you need to ask questions of one empowered to give the official answer.
Ultimately, you might have to face a Court to argue why your patient had greater rights than others.
Your patient, in the scheme of things, does not.
Ruskie said:
In all honesty the original question was aimed at people in the profession rather than people with half cocked ideas about the situations we encounter on a daily basis. Not sure why your taking the high and mighty 'I pay my taxes' route but that is your perogative I suppose.
Not quite sure why you're asking questions then as you seem to already know more than us.Ruskie said:
I was instructed by my paramedic colleague( Not my FBA/CTE I might add) to have a 'steady' blue light run in not using sirens. Now this is a no no as i am a trainee paramedic...
Therein lies the answer. The reason I took the trouble to answer was because I had a very close shave with an emergency vehicle not using their siren on a blind corner.
Ruskie said:
Well your basing your argument on a comment that I am not sure is correct. If you read my posts carefully you will see the correct protocol is lights and sirens at all times but how would you feel if it was someone you knew in the back? In all honesty the original question was aimed at people in the profession rather than people with half cocked ideas about the situations we encounter on a daily basis. Not sure why your taking the high and mighty 'I pay my taxes' route but that is your perogative I suppose.
Follow protocol, it is there for a reason.
It is drummed into the Emergency Services, do not get delayed by being involved in a collision whilst executing your primary duty.
Your training should be designed to equip you to make decisions about "the situations we encounter on a daily basis".
I am realist enough not to demand, that if someone I knew was in the back, that you should risk the lives of others.
I speak as someone married to a wife in a senior Public Sector role.
She has to, albeit not with regard to emergency services driving, ensure that all those in her institution are trained to deal with many issues, all of which could be subject to examination in a Court. She could be called to account. She treats that seriously.
Ruskie said:
vonhosen said:
Ruskie said:
Appreciate the comments but do you honestly think that I am just driving on blue lights without having done a very through advanced driving course? It is not always black and white.
The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
If a collision is down to questionable actions on your part, you'll get the blame with blue lights on or not. If it's not down to your actions, you won't get the blame blue lights on or not.The event I mentioned is not really that simple. We are taught to ALWAYS drive with lights and sirens on, night or day but it is up to us to use discretion. BUT and it is a big but if I crash without either lights or sirens on, on a emergency call then I am liable for any accident.
My colleague who is clinically responsible due to me being classed as trainee, despite being trained to technician level at the moment asked me not to drive with sirens on due to the potential of the patient fitting again. So in between a rock and a hard place. Would have been extremely disrespectful for me to disobey her request but was hard not to use sirens at that time of day crossing busy crossroads. Just gauging opinions from people who may have been in a similar situation.
As a professional you have to choose the most appropriate course of action for the circumstances, you have to weigh up if the risks of using blue lights are greater than not, or if a mixture is best. You then have to be prepared to justify that choice if called to.
Whether you have blue lights on or not, your driving has to be safe & appropriate, you have to tailor it to the circumstances.
I'm just saying that blue lights can't be considered as a security blanket from blame (which it appeared to me you were suggesting originally). If you get it wrong, blue lights being used won't stop you being held to account for it.
Also if you were doing nothing wrong, you won't suddenly be held accountable for a collision just because you didn't have blue lights on.
I'm not a para so I don't know exactly what your standard operating procedures are, I'm talking from a legal viewpoint.
Hi there,
We did a 40 mile run a couple hours ago and only used the siren a couple of times for a minimal amount of time, the reason being our patient had a heart problem and as such needed "smooth and quiet" transport, the difference being you just have to hang back and use positioning of the vehicle and poss use of headlamp flash etc to draw peoples attention (beats me why joe public can't see 6 strobes on the front but move as soon as you flash the h/lamps at them?) the circumstances have to be weighed up on an individual basis and is ultimately up to the driver to decide how to proceed, and if no siren is what is required then the "progress" needs to be moderated to a level where you are able to deal with any hazards that present as normal, if your doing 5 miles an hour more than everyone else your making progress. Personally I have never heard of a patient having a fit in relation to sirens so perhaps your colleague was trying to justify her request/demand? or dare I say it was more a reflection of the condition of the attendant rather than the patient? I am IHCD DI qualifed BTW.
Regards,
Gary
We did a 40 mile run a couple hours ago and only used the siren a couple of times for a minimal amount of time, the reason being our patient had a heart problem and as such needed "smooth and quiet" transport, the difference being you just have to hang back and use positioning of the vehicle and poss use of headlamp flash etc to draw peoples attention (beats me why joe public can't see 6 strobes on the front but move as soon as you flash the h/lamps at them?) the circumstances have to be weighed up on an individual basis and is ultimately up to the driver to decide how to proceed, and if no siren is what is required then the "progress" needs to be moderated to a level where you are able to deal with any hazards that present as normal, if your doing 5 miles an hour more than everyone else your making progress. Personally I have never heard of a patient having a fit in relation to sirens so perhaps your colleague was trying to justify her request/demand? or dare I say it was more a reflection of the condition of the attendant rather than the patient? I am IHCD DI qualifed BTW.
Regards,
Gary
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