BGOL\Coasting

[Dr Jekyll]

p1esk said:

I mean to say, the IAM/RoSPA considers it 'wrong', so that's the end of the matter, is it? Well I suppose it is if you wish to pass their tests, but aside from that, just how much do some of these niceties really matter?

Quite frankly I think we make far too much fuss about some of these trifling details, and whilever that continues we should not be surprised to find so many people being deterred from taking an interest in advanced driving, and I can't blame them.

It isn't the unnecessary gearchange that matters, it's the fact that you would not do an unnecessary gearchange if you were concentrating harder. Once you stop treating lapses like that as a warning sign of losing concentration and start saying 'it doesn't really matter' you are on a slippery slope. You can't do well at anything with a philosophy of 'that'll do, who cares.'

[BertBert]

being an anally-retentive striver-for-the-best, I was once warned of the dangers of "the best being the enemy of good enough"!

Bert

[Dr Jekyll]

BertBert said:

being an anally-retentive striver-for-the-best, I was once warned of the dangers of "the best being the enemy of good enough"!

Bert

Obviously you don't want to get so particular about one aspect that it takes concentration away from other things, but regarding the odd unnecessary gear change as an opportunity for improvement at least encourages you to take a pride in your driving.

[p1esk]

JimboCam said:

p1esk said:

JimboCam said:

Holst said:

I find it easyer to change down into 4th (from 5th) before some hazzard and before I start braking, this makes it easyer to change down to 2nd or 3rd once braking is complete as I dont have to coast for as long, if at all. Is this OK?

What! Are you saying it takes you longer to move the gear stick from 5th than 4th?
You seem to have a misapprehension of what coasting is. If you're braking you're not coasting.
Basically it sounds like you'd be making an unnecessary gear change which would generally be regarded as "wrong" in IAM/RoADA tests.

Oh FFS, what greater condemnation can there be?

I mean to say, the IAM/RoSPA considers it 'wrong', so that's the end of the matter, is it? Well I suppose it is if you wish to pass their tests, but aside from that, just how much do some of these niceties really matter?

Quite frankly I think we make far too much fuss about some of these trifling details, and whilever that continues we should not be surprised to find so many people being deterred from taking an interest in advanced driving, and I can't blame them.

First of all, what is a proper definition of coasting? If we're going have all this knicker knotting about it, we'd better know just what is meant by coasting, had we not? I get fed up of this hogwash about coasting, and how evil it is - 'vehicle not under control' they say. As far as I'm concerned, if the vehicle is going where the driver intends it to go, and it's travelling at a speed he judges to be suitable, and it is not in danger of going where it shouldn't go, or travelling at speeds that are unsuitable, it jolly well is under control, and it doesn't matter whether or not the driver is braking, or whether it is in gear or in neutral - so long as he retains the ability to alter its course and/or speed promptly to suit a changing situation. What else do we need?

If we really want to get into all the wearisome details of all this, we'd better be clear about what coasting means, for a start.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

You asked the question. I answered from the standard I was taught. You're the one who seems to be knotting their knickers.

To me coasting is when both the engine and brakes are disengaged.

No sir, knickers are quite tidy and in proper order here.

I don't know what coasting means. It seems to mean different things to different people, which is why I was hoping somebody could provide us with a good reliable definition of it.

Admittedly I was slightly irritated by all the fuss, when we're not even sure what coasting is.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BertBert]

absolutelty!
Bert

[p1esk]

JimboCam said:

Can't see any need for premature deceleration.

No, I can't either. In fact I think it's detrimental to the success of the occasion, so it's best avoided.

Presumably it happens when she gets you too excited too early.

Oh, hang on; I think I may have slipped into the wrong subject here. Sorry pardon, off the rails again!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[p1esk]

Dr Jekyll said:

p1esk said:

I mean to say, the IAM/RoSPA considers it 'wrong', so that's the end of the matter, is it? Well I suppose it is if you wish to pass their tests, but aside from that, just how much do some of these niceties really matter?

Quite frankly I think we make far too much fuss about some of these trifling details, and whilever that continues we should not be surprised to find so many people being deterred from taking an interest in advanced driving, and I can't blame them.

It isn't the unnecessary gearchange that matters, it's the fact that you would not do an unnecessary gearchange if you were concentrating harder. Once you stop treating lapses like that as a warning sign of losing concentration and start saying 'it doesn't really matter' you are on a slippery slope. You can't do well at anything with a philosophy of 'that'll do, who cares.'

Look, there are some things that are worth fussing about, and some that are not, IMHO. It's more a case of doing things decently and safely, and being able to feel that what you've done is satisfactory; and that is not the same thing as having a 'that'll do, who cares' attitude, which I agree does sound too slipshod.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[1950trevorP]

Shall we start with -

Coasting. This term describes a vehicle travelling in neutral or with the clutch pressed down.

(Highway Code definition.)

Then we move to "The IAM says it's OK - or NOT as the case may be"

Erm, Nope.

We ALL coast. (well, those with manual gearboxes, anyway).
Maybe only the last metre before coming to a stop.

(mind you, railing against "petty" IAM "rules" that don't exist seems to me equally daft)

The question is:- What do we do approaching a hazard in a gear that becomes unviable"?

And the answer is:- Dip the clutch OR take an intermediate gear - depending on vehicle and circumstances.

BUT - I would suggest the question is NOT coasting - It is rather the OP's introduction to "slowing and stopping in 'high' gear". (at, say, red traffic lights)

It is very common to find 'braking and changing down' performed together.
This becomes so ingrained that for many drivers changing down is part of the slowing (and stopping) process.

many AD trainees initially have problems with application of the "brakes to slow, gears to go" philosophy.

Edited by 1950trevorP on Tuesday 11th March 11:47

[BertBert]

1950trevorP said:

many AD trainees initially have problems with application of the "brakes to slow, gears to go" philosophy.

Ahh, button pressed. Mantra not philosophy.

Mantra...A commonly repeated word or phrase: "Today's edutainment software comes shrinkwrapped in the magic mantra: 'makes learning fun.'" (Clifford Stoll).

Philosophy...the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them.

Bert

[1950trevorP]

BertBert said:

Ahh, button pressed. Mantra not philosophy.

Personally, I care not if it is labelled idea, drill, routine, or even that dreadful word dogma.

I was merely attempting to assist the OP with understanding.

[p1esk]

1950trevorP said:

Shall we start with -

Coasting. This term describes a vehicle travelling in neutral or with the clutch pressed down.

(Highway Code definition.)

Then we move to "The IAM says it's OK - or NOT as the case may be"

Erm, Nope.

We ALL coast. (well, those with manual gearboxes, anyway).
Maybe only the last metre before coming to a stop.

(mind you, railing against "petty" IAM "rules" that don't exist seems to me equally daft)

The question is:- What do we do approaching a hazard in a gear that becomes unviable"?

And the answer is:- Dip the clutch OR take an intermediate gear - depending on vehicle and circumstances.

BUT - I would suggest the question is NOT coasting - It is rather the OP's introduction to "slowing and stopping in 'high' gear". (at, say, red traffic lights)

It is very common to find 'braking and changing down' performed together.
This becomes so ingrained that for many drivers changing down is part of the slowing (and stopping) process.

many AD trainees initially have problems with application of the "brakes to slow, gears to go" philosophy.

Edited by 1950trevorP on Tuesday 11th March 11:47

Hello Trevor, and thanks for the definition.

I don't have a better one in mind, so I'll work with the definition you give, but I must admit this makes me something of a coaster.

A coasting situation I sometimes find myself in is when slowing to a halt at traffic lights, or a junction, or a roadworks (single line traffic) situation with temporary traffic lights. Quite often I'll be slowing down gently and early for these situations but still in a high gear on the approach, in which case that gear becomes unviable long before I get to the last metre of travel. This means I'll slip out of that gear and into neutral, and release the clutch pedal, while continuing to brake gently to a halt. The result of this is that I may cover 50 yards in the process, taking maybe ten seconds to do it before finally stopping, and the purists will probably not like this.

One way to minimise this coasting, if one is to retain the high gear, is to brake hard and late to a halt, declutching at the last moment so there a minimum of distance travelled (and minimum time spent) in neutral or declutched, and I'm not happy to do that. Another option is to change down to a lower gear as an interim measure, and re-engage the clutch until that gear also becomes unviable, albeit at a lower speed, and in general I don't think it's worth bothering.

In the case of traffic lights some of this problem can be minimised by engaging a lower gear, and then continuing towards the stopping point with the clutch re-engaged and hoping the lights turn to green before we actually arrive at the stopping point.

My general feeling is that there is no point in hanging onto a gear that is too high to be of any use (because the engine speed is too low) for accelerating out of trouble, so we might as well be in neutral with foot off the clutch pedal, and not causing release bearing wear for no useful purpose.

This is of course merely the TripleS way of looking at things, and there will naturally be other views on the matter, which I may seek to demolish in due course as appropriate.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[WhoseGeneration]

As Cilla might say, "It's a lorra lorra fun".

[BertBert]

1950trevorP said:

BertBert said:

Ahh, button pressed. Mantra not philosophy.

Personally, I care not if it is labelled idea, drill, routine, or even that dreadful word dogma.

I was merely attempting to assist the OP with understanding.

Indeed, I understand, but in most cases it is actually a dogma that doesn't help. To those who know what it means it's useless and to those that are learning the key tenets of Advanced Driving it's too trite to help.

Anyway, it's just a bee in my personal bonnet, so it's me who has to get over it

Bert

[BertBert]

And in reality, there's no measurable dis-benefit of any of the approaches that are used with active thinking, more matters of principle.

Bert

[p1esk]

1950trevorP said:

BertBert said:

Ahh, button pressed. Mantra not philosophy.

Personally, I care not if it is labelled idea, drill, routine, or even that dreadful word dogma.

I quite agree. There must be better terms one could use.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[1950trevorP]

BertBert said:

in most cases it is actually a dogma that doesn't help.
To those who know what it means it's useless and to those that are learning the key tenets of Advanced Driving it's too trite to help.

Life must be SO much easier when you KNOW what other people think.

Member of this "group" are you?

http://www.psychics.co.uk/psychictests/psychiciq.h...




(Me? -I'm a rice pudding)

Edited by 1950trevorP on Wednesday 12th March 09:44

[BertBert]

1950trevorP said:

BertBert said:

in most cases it is actually a dogma that doesn't help.
To those who know what it means it's useless and to those that are learning the key tenets of Advanced Driving it's too trite to help.

Life must be SO much easier when you KNOW what other people think.

Member of this "group" are you?

http://www.psychics.co.uk/psychictests/psychiciq.h...



(Me? -I'm a rice pudding)

Edited by 1950trevorP on Wednesday 12th March 09:44

Nope, not at all, my opinion in this matter was formed having spent many weekends for 5 odd years introducing and teaching the basic concepts of Advanced Driving (observation, planning, hazard approach, car control, avoiding BGOL etc) to people with the keenest and most uncluttered minds around (kids aged 12-17). The use of the brakes/gears phrase just was of no use whatsoever in the process. And because I am a bigotted old git, I am happy to argue with anyone on the subject!!

Mind you as President and founder member of the "right to ratchet society", I should probably be ignored in most things!

Bert

[Range Rover Blue]

What's BGOL?

[hugh_]

Sorry I haven't responded to your replies earlier.

1950trevorP said:

Coasting. This term describes a vehicle travelling in neutral or with the clutch pressed down.
...
We ALL coast.
...
Dip the clutch OR take an intermediate gear - depending on vehicle and circumstances.

So is the correct way to approach a hazard requiring you to stop to: find an optimum balance of dipping the clutch (coasting if you like) and taking an intermediate gear as appropriate to the vehicle and circumstances?

[hugh_]

Range Rover Blue said:

What's BGOL?

Brake Gear Overlap - changing gear whilst braking.

Edited by hugh_ on Friday 14th March 08:31