What does "advanced driving" teach you?
Discussion
It's tempting to be trite and say it's about how not to get into slides in the first place, and that is certainly part of it.
It's a logical extension of what examiners look for in a normal test. A major part of an advanced instructors job is pointing out bad habits you have acquired without realising.
You are expected to be safe and smooth without going unnecessarily slowly, always in the right position, at the right speed, and in the right gear. You will be taught to adopt a planned approach so that you always leave yourself time to react (in an undramatic fashion) to whatever occurs.
It takes time to get into it, and the longer you leave it before getting involved in advanced driving the harder it will seem. But it's worth persevering because the end result is that driving is more relaxed and enjoyable for you, your passengers, and anyone sharing the road with you.
A good analogy is with a computer keyboard. You can get by just using 2 fingers, but it will be unnecessarily hard work and any attempt to work quickly will waste energy and cause chaos.
If you learn to use all your fingers, however strange and awkward it feels at first, you can type not only more much easily and with fewer mistakes, but also, eventually, faster. Providing you remember that actively rushing will still cause chaos.
It's a logical extension of what examiners look for in a normal test. A major part of an advanced instructors job is pointing out bad habits you have acquired without realising.
You are expected to be safe and smooth without going unnecessarily slowly, always in the right position, at the right speed, and in the right gear. You will be taught to adopt a planned approach so that you always leave yourself time to react (in an undramatic fashion) to whatever occurs.
It takes time to get into it, and the longer you leave it before getting involved in advanced driving the harder it will seem. But it's worth persevering because the end result is that driving is more relaxed and enjoyable for you, your passengers, and anyone sharing the road with you.
A good analogy is with a computer keyboard. You can get by just using 2 fingers, but it will be unnecessarily hard work and any attempt to work quickly will waste energy and cause chaos.
If you learn to use all your fingers, however strange and awkward it feels at first, you can type not only more much easily and with fewer mistakes, but also, eventually, faster. Providing you remember that actively rushing will still cause chaos.
Think the real question should be `What do you consider to BE advanced driving`.
Getting safely from A to B in a smooth fashion at a suitable pace without causing passenger distress and without incident is basic driving IMO. And as such should not be considered as anything else.
However I accept that the majority of drivers in this country fall far short of even that standard.
Getting safely from A to B in a smooth fashion at a suitable pace without causing passenger distress and without incident is basic driving IMO. And as such should not be considered as anything else.
However I accept that the majority of drivers in this country fall far short of even that standard.
If you want the 'official' description...as agreed by IAM and RoSPA...
"Advanced driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. The skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle should always be at the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
My shorter version would be;
"If you wish to increase your enjoyment of driving, lift your personal standards a few rungs up the ladder and take a pride in your driving, there are a lot of people out there(IAM and RoSPA, and on here) who will be more than happy to help you.
If you wish to take it beyond IAM and RoSPA there are many individual courses you can take..depends on how far you want to go...
BOF.
"Advanced driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. The skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle should always be at the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
My shorter version would be;
"If you wish to increase your enjoyment of driving, lift your personal standards a few rungs up the ladder and take a pride in your driving, there are a lot of people out there(IAM and RoSPA, and on here) who will be more than happy to help you.
If you wish to take it beyond IAM and RoSPA there are many individual courses you can take..depends on how far you want to go...
BOF.
Edited by BOF on Saturday 15th March 17:41
jamoor said:
Sounds wishy washy to me, essentially it sounds like, make progress, plan as far advance as you can.
Well. I suggest you buy and read a copy of "Roadcraft" (Amazon will help you). Decide if it's wishy washy after that.A recent statistic I got given by our local Chairman is that, apparently and don't ask me for a link at the moment, someone who has passed their Advanced Test is NINE times less likely to be involved in a prang.
I have no reason to doubt the information and will be corroborating it in the near future. If true it really does say something fantastic about AD skills. Practically an order of magnitude less likely to be involved in a prang.
If that's not worth a little effort I don't know what is...
crisisjez said:
Getting safely from A to B in a smooth fashion at a suitable pace without causing passenger distress and without incident is basic driving IMO. And as such should not be considered as anything else.
Absolutely. Roadcraft doesn't contain any advanced driving advice, it's a basic standard that everyone should have to achieve before they pass their DSA test.One of the things not emphasised is that AD is systematic. Many if not all of the things mentioned in the definition back there are present in what is taught to learners through the DSA mechanisms.
Advanced driving is a systematic approach to improving the effectiveness of those driving elements with the main aim of reducing risk, improving safety. The system brings along many other facets, improved smoothness and comfort, and reduced wear.
It also brings a different ethos. One of craftsmanship where having a high level of ability is a good thing in its own right. That is not really present in the DSA test. That's a good thing, but can become self-serving when taken too far.
The fact that it is systematic means it can be easily taught, learned and tested.
It being a system means it has very tangible methods making it anything but wishy washy.
Bert
Advanced driving is a systematic approach to improving the effectiveness of those driving elements with the main aim of reducing risk, improving safety. The system brings along many other facets, improved smoothness and comfort, and reduced wear.
It also brings a different ethos. One of craftsmanship where having a high level of ability is a good thing in its own right. That is not really present in the DSA test. That's a good thing, but can become self-serving when taken too far.
The fact that it is systematic means it can be easily taught, learned and tested.
It being a system means it has very tangible methods making it anything but wishy washy.
Bert
RT106 said:
crisisjez said:
Getting safely from A to B in a smooth fashion at a suitable pace without causing passenger distress and without incident is basic driving IMO. And as such should not be considered as anything else.
Absolutely. Roadcraft doesn't contain any advanced driving advice, it's a basic standard that everyone should have to achieve before they pass their DSA test.If everyone had to achieve Rospa Gold before being allowed to drive..and had to keep passing at Gold every three years..imagine how delightful driving would be! Courteous, skilled drivers on highly uncongested roads...
Hi all,
Advanced driving is fundamentally different from "DSA driving", because advanced motoring uses the System of Car Control. It's appropriate use of the System that's important in bringing about reduced accident rates. Research shows that those with advanced training are 50% less likely to be involved in an accident. Those who've gone on to pass an advanced test are as much as 75% less likely to be involved in an accident.
However, this thread's quite illuminating for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, the "wishy washy" perception highlights one of the major reasons why people don't take up advanced driving. What's the advanced driving syllabus? What are the core, new skills taught? What are the learning objectives for an advanced driving course?
By way of example, contrast IAM Skills for Life with the California Superbike School's clear and structured syllabus:
Imagine for a moment that you have practised and mastered each of these six points. What would your own riding be like if you had?
- Perfect turn entry speed. Just the way you like it every time.
- Flawless throttle control. The bike feels stable through every corner.
- Precision turn entry. A turn-in point that really handles the corner – every time.
- No nervous steering corrections. Just one clean, sharp and accurate sweep through every turn.
- Complete relaxation. In harmony with the bike under all conditions.
- Laser cut lines. Consistent ones like a pro can do.
Is this possible? We'd be lying if we said it was easy or that we could coach you to perfection on any one of these points in one day. But, after Level I, you will know why it went wrong and have a way to correct it! Each technical point is fully explained and has an on-track training drill.
This means that anyone interested in the California Superbike School knows what they'll learn on a Level 1 day. The learning objectives are clear and the training's very well structured. How does this compare with a typical observed drive, I wonder?
This is the second interested thing. Roadcraft contains considerable advanced advice. How many learners are ready to grasp tyre grip trade-off, let alone 3-stage overtaking technique on single carriageways! How many learners could develop the timing to drive smoothly without brake-gear overlap, combined with the judgement to choose when overlap is appropriate? Roadcraft has some subtleties best understood by experienced drivers.
Roadcraft can be read at two levels. Less experienced drivers will gain enormously from the straightforward, common sense advice. However, more experienced drivers will gain from subtle but valuable techniques within Roadcraft. Of course, no book can substitute for professional instruction!
Advanced driving is fundamentally different from "DSA driving", because advanced motoring uses the System of Car Control. It's appropriate use of the System that's important in bringing about reduced accident rates. Research shows that those with advanced training are 50% less likely to be involved in an accident. Those who've gone on to pass an advanced test are as much as 75% less likely to be involved in an accident.
However, this thread's quite illuminating for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, the "wishy washy" perception highlights one of the major reasons why people don't take up advanced driving. What's the advanced driving syllabus? What are the core, new skills taught? What are the learning objectives for an advanced driving course?
By way of example, contrast IAM Skills for Life with the California Superbike School's clear and structured syllabus:
Imagine for a moment that you have practised and mastered each of these six points. What would your own riding be like if you had?
- Perfect turn entry speed. Just the way you like it every time.
- Flawless throttle control. The bike feels stable through every corner.
- Precision turn entry. A turn-in point that really handles the corner – every time.
- No nervous steering corrections. Just one clean, sharp and accurate sweep through every turn.
- Complete relaxation. In harmony with the bike under all conditions.
- Laser cut lines. Consistent ones like a pro can do.
Is this possible? We'd be lying if we said it was easy or that we could coach you to perfection on any one of these points in one day. But, after Level I, you will know why it went wrong and have a way to correct it! Each technical point is fully explained and has an on-track training drill.
This means that anyone interested in the California Superbike School knows what they'll learn on a Level 1 day. The learning objectives are clear and the training's very well structured. How does this compare with a typical observed drive, I wonder?
RT106 said:
crisisjez said:
Getting safely from A to B in a smooth fashion at a suitable pace without causing passenger distress and without incident is basic driving IMO. And as such should not be considered as anything else.
Absolutely. Roadcraft doesn't contain any advanced driving advice, it's a basic standard that everyone should have to achieve before they pass their DSA test.Roadcraft can be read at two levels. Less experienced drivers will gain enormously from the straightforward, common sense advice. However, more experienced drivers will gain from subtle but valuable techniques within Roadcraft. Of course, no book can substitute for professional instruction!
Edited by SVS on Sunday 16th March 18:46
jamoor said:
Sounds wishy washy to me, essentially it sounds like, make progress, plan as far advance as you can.
Jamoor, have you ever experienced a drive out with a truly advanced driver?It's a bit like a very good musician, or sportsman. The less appears to be happening, the more is going on beneath the surface.
I would define "Advanced Driving" as the ability to use a systematic approach to driving, in order to make maximum safe progress.
It's not necessarily about mastering every technique, much more about a frame of mind which means that you are using all the information available to make sound judgements and putting them into practice by accurate use of the vehicles controls.
Try and get a lift with an IAM observer or a police advanced driver and perhaps you'll get more of an insight of what all drivers should aspire to.
WeirdNeville said:
jamoor said:
Sounds wishy washy to me, essentially it sounds like, make progress, plan as far advance as you can.
Jamoor, have you ever experienced a drive out with a truly advanced driver?It's a bit like a very good musician, or sportsman. The less appears to be happening, the more is going on beneath the surface.
I would define "Advanced Driving" as the ability to use a systematic approach to driving, in order to make maximum safe progress.
It's not necessarily about mastering every technique, much more about a frame of mind which means that you are using all the information available to make sound judgements and putting them into practice by accurate use of the vehicles controls.
Try and get a lift with an IAM observer or a police advanced driver and perhaps you'll get more of an insight of what all drivers should aspire to.
Bieng able to guess what drivers are like and anticipate what they are most likely to do and adjusting your own driving to suit, "looking" 8 cars ahead on the motorway to check if any of them brake and trying to break the ripple effect? Knowing that the person in the driving lane is very likely to pull out due to rapidly approaching a lorry, that kind of thing?
Edited by jamoor on Sunday 16th March 22:20
jamoor said:
vonhosen said:
The thing about common sense is, that it is not all that common.
Is it possible to pick it up naturally, or must you be taught it, or will it come naturally given experience?Can anyone give me a link to a decent resource with information?
Thanks
However rather than learning from your own mistakes it is quite often better (& less painful) to learn from those who have made them before you.
'Experentia Docet' applies to both of the above sentences.
WeirdNeville said:
Try and get a lift with an IAM observer or a police advanced driver and perhaps you'll get more of an insight of what all drivers should aspire to.
This would be a good insight. I got the opportunity to work with a Traffic Officer in my tutorship as a Special (he is an Advanced ticket holder). It was one of the most interesting driving experiences I've had... a truly fantastic driver. Everything is smooth, calm and calculated. Nothing was rushed or last-minute, never saw anything that was even close to excessive.It was a real eye-opener to see that the visible movements are very calm and planned, but he was thinking about everything, checking side-roads, looking ahead, watching his position/speed and so on. His attitude was totally different too... we got cut up on a roundabout during a response run... I did the 'oh ffs' type thought process, but he didn't appear to be phased by it at all.
When driving, we 'made progress', whilst keeping the car balanced (noted OP's comment about sliding) and safe.
It's why I've become interested in doing IAM, to change my attitude, improve observation skills and become safer. The guy is a model driver, it was impressive stuff.
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