Merging onto a motorway when the slip road is finishing

Merging onto a motorway when the slip road is finishing

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Z064life

Original Poster:

1,926 posts

247 months

Friday 20th March 2009
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RichB - I actually live very close to that junction/M4 in general. Never been on that ramp, though, but will bear that in mind.

Others - if you have to stop at the end of a slip road to join, you will have one hell of a long wait to join. If it's 5pm and rush hour, you have so many cars doing 60+. There are just too many cars coming too quickly. Not always can the cars in L1 change lane, either. And when you join in and accelerate, you're not out of the woods. I think this is way more unsafe than using the hard shoulder.

Near my home, I join the A40 from a small, quiet side road (not even wide enough to let two cars pass simultaneously). This is at a right angle (like a T junction). I have to wait ages to get a chance to come in, and the cars are doing 40mph (the speed limit on this stretch), but there are so many cars coming. The only real chance I get is when someone slows down and turns in at the side road I am on. Changing lanes sometimes presents an oppurtunity, but has its implications for me.


From experience, there is a 2 second gap between 2 cars in L1 - about 2 or more car lengths. I try to position my car in this physical gap. It works for me (as it did today). But again, none of these techniques are applicable every time.

It should be my right of way because I have less options as the slip road practically forces me onto L1 (ok I can stop, but this brings its own hazards). Cars in L1 can slow down or change lanes (easy for them as there is no speed differential between L1 and L2). As they have options, road rules should dictate they should let cars on the slip road in. I have always been let in because someone has changed lanes or slowed down. There should be enough gap between all the cars to allow this to not be a problem.

To the guy who quoted me: The best solution is for a dedicated lane to come off/join the motorway. This is the case on some motorways but at the time of the slip road construction and also now, probably wasn't/isn't an option due to natural structures, etc.

Edited by Z064life on Friday 20th March 16:03

mph999

2,714 posts

219 months

Saturday 21st March 2009
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TonyHetherington said:
Distant said:
I'm amazed at your local IAM giving such poor advice. There's a give way line at the end of the slip road and a solid line protecting the hard shoulder. You should sit and wait at the give way like you would any other junction, although with good forward planning you should rarely have to come to a complete stop.
Yup, that was 100% definitely their continued advice (I was an observer there for 4yrs).
I was once told, during a driving lecture by Surrey Police (actual traffic officers), to never stop at the end of a slip road (risk of being rear-ended is very high), and to use the hard shoulder.
Now in 15 odd years, I've never had to do it, but if it came to it, I'd use the hard shoulder as opposed to stopping, which could easily end up as a fatal.

Generally speaking, many people coming down a slip road can't even see the vehicles on the motorway, they certainly ain't going to see you stopped at the end ...

Hooli

32,278 posts

199 months

Saturday 21st March 2009
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Z064life said:
It should be my right of way because I have less options as the slip road practically forces me onto L1 (ok I can stop, but this brings its own hazards). Cars in L1 can slow down or change lanes (easy for them as there is no speed differential between L1 and L2). As they have options, road rules should dictate they should let cars on the slip road in. I have always been let in because someone has changed lanes or slowed down. There should be enough gap between all the cars to allow this to not be a problem.
jesus! no wonder its so bloody dangerous out there with people saying give way markings shouldn't apply to them. would you pull out of a T-junction in front of people as well because you think your more important than the traffic with priority? Can i suggest you discover what all those pretty white lines they paint on the roads mean before you attempt to drive a car again?

If people are incapable of using observation & speed control to judge merging into traffic from sliproads then they are incapable of driving safely. with obvious exceptions for the appalling design of some junctions that appeared to be pre-planned accidents.

Henry Hawthorne

6,337 posts

215 months

Saturday 21st March 2009
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Hooli said:
Z064life said:
It should be my right of way because I have less options as the slip road practically forces me onto L1 (ok I can stop, but this brings its own hazards). Cars in L1 can slow down or change lanes (easy for them as there is no speed differential between L1 and L2). As they have options, road rules should dictate they should let cars on the slip road in. I have always been let in because someone has changed lanes or slowed down. There should be enough gap between all the cars to allow this to not be a problem.
jesus! no wonder its so bloody dangerous out there with people saying give way markings shouldn't apply to them. would you pull out of a T-junction in front of people as well because you think your more important than the traffic with priority? Can i suggest you discover what all those pretty white lines they paint on the roads mean before you attempt to drive a car again?

If people are incapable of using observation & speed control to judge merging into traffic from sliproads then they are incapable of driving safely. with obvious exceptions for the appalling design of some junctions that appeared to be pre-planned accidents.
I think you've misinterpreted his post.

jimjim150

213 posts

183 months

Tuesday 24th March 2009
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I live in Essex and contend with a long stretch of the very dangerous A12 twice a day. Its an A road but is treated by most as a motorway; it has very high speeds, motorway markings, junction numbers etc. It is in desperate need to be upgraded as there are some serious road quality issues in places.

Notably it has some very dangerous slip roads, a couple of them have been the scene of fatal crashes on plenty of occasions, this is partly due to them being insanely short, joining a road with everyone doing 80. But the main cause of these crashes is stupidity.
Two or three times I have seen cars trying to join the road and causing a major accident through not checking enough, or forcing another car to change lane (who subsequently hadn't checked enough either).

I have never had a problem joining a fast road or motorway though. Sometimes it is appropriate to floor it and other times its better to chill and wait for your space.
One thing to remember is presence, you must remain confident. I see cars that are obviously unsure about pulling out and no-one lets them out because they aren't driving confidently enough, whereas cars that are confindent and have road presence are let straight out. A large number of people who stop at the end of slip roads have brought it on themselves through poor driving or lack of confidence. I do however agree that stopping is the correct practice, it should never come to this in free moving traffic.

PeterA

97 posts

191 months

Tuesday 24th March 2009
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M6 Northbound junction at Lancaster. Just thought I'd give the earlier descriptions some context.

BOR

4,698 posts

254 months

Wednesday 25th March 2009
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If the visibility is as good in reality as it seems from that photo, there is ample distance to decide what action to take. In my case I would be picking a car as early as possible and accelerating to a higher relative speed prior to slotting in in front of it.

Worst case would be stopping at the end of the slip road, due to drivers behind you looking right, toward the traffic on lane 1 rather than the end of the slip road.

There may not be any hard-shoulder to trespass at that junction due to it being a bridge section, so I would consider the implications of fairly assertive push into L1.

Edited by BOR on Wednesday 25th March 09:03

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Wednesday 25th March 2009
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When on a slip road, a lot of drivers won't bother to look for a joining gap until they're on the part of the slip road that runs parallel to the m'way, when they've only a few seconds left in which to position themselves.
One of the best instructors I've ever been with would advise a slip road driver to begin to assess what was in the m'way nearside lane as soon as it was physically possible to do so. This would often be when one's car was at something like a 45 deg angle to the m'way. From that vantage point, it's easy to look over one's right shoulder and get a very good reading of space and time.

PeterA

97 posts

191 months

Wednesday 25th March 2009
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BOR said:
If the visibility is as good in reality as it seems from that photo, there is ample distance to decide what action to take. In my case I would be picking a car as early as possible and accelerating to a higher relative speed prior to slotting in in front of it.

Worst case would be stopping at the end of the slip road, due to drivers behind you looking right, toward the traffic on lane 1 rather than the end of the slip road.

There may not be any hard-shoulder to trespass at that junction due to it being a bridge section, so I would consider the implications of fairly assertive push into L1.
The visibility is not as good as it seems from the photo. As BonzoGuinness said:

BonzoGuinness said:
It joins the motorway just before a bridge over a river. As you round the corner, you've got to make a decision pretty much instantly, whether to go for it or ease back a bit. It's got potential to be the base of a very nasty accident.

Horribly poor visibility too - it's a 90 degree left hander, up quite a steep incline in order to meet the bridge.
A 'fairly assertive push' may be a possible course of action in theory, but in reality if there's a lot of traffic then you've got little choice but to brake very firmly.

ad551 said:
Luckily most local and lorry drivers seem to be aware of the situation and pull into lane 2 if they see anything coming up the slip road; however I have seen many occasions where people have stopped at the end of the slip road waiting to pull out - there is no choice apart from to stop and give way here!
BOR, I appreciate what you're saying and would agree if the real world had as much visibility etc as the picture suggests, however, if you ever happen to be around Lancaster, please have a little recce – I'm pretty confident you'll see what we're getting at! (Thankfully, I've never had to join the M6 there in our 1.2 Clio. Maybe this also gives some context to why I can't really accelerate into a gap.)

AndrewJG

25 posts

109 months

Wednesday 25th February 2015
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I know this is an ancient post but I was in this exact situation today. Left a truck driver non to pleased by having to cut in about 2 metres in front of him, and about the same from another truck in front of me.
The particular slip road in question gives a good view of what is already on the motorway. And by god let me tell you, it was packed for as far as I could see. Nobody slowing down, nobody moving out the way.
I'm doing 60 down the slip road with cars behind me. What the hell am I going to do!?
Well I seen a gap between two truck which I knew I would fit in... Just. If I thought for a second I wasn't going to fit obviously I would never have attempted such a manoeuvre.
Ordinarily I really am a sensible driver. But I feel like some circumstances can force a driver into to seemingly being reckless.
Multiple lanes where the signing in painted on the road and not on roadside signposts. That's another one that annoys me. How the hell am I supposed to read the road? There's cars on it!

Blakewater

4,303 posts

156 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
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At the Lancaster junction, you have a view of the motorway from here so you can start planning where to slot in.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.072409,-2.77259,...

The only time I've ever been forced onto a hard shoulder was on the M62 when an HGV driver closed a gap on me. It was a managed section and I suspect he was trying to "make a point" that I should have been using the hard shoulder even though it wasn't active as a lane at the time.

titian

55 posts

118 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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The motorway at that point is running uphill, the Google image doesn't do that justice. The actual length of slip lane with a broken line at the point where you merge onto the motorway is little more than the length of 2 artics, the image posted shows that quite clearly, so at say 60mph you have to make some darn quick decissions even though you have had a view of the traffic already on the motorway for a number of seconds during your approach.

The white artic has seen the vehicle ahead of us and the camera car about to merge and has kindly moved into lane two, I guess primarily to maintain his speed uphill and secondly to make space for the joiners (or perhaps the other way round!)

Hugo a Gogo

23,378 posts

232 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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if you can't make that junction safely, stay off the motorways (if not the roads altogether)

CrutyRammers

13,735 posts

197 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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Hugo a Gogo said:
if you can't make that junction safely, stay off the motorways (if not the roads altogether)
Have you driven it? It's by far the worst on-ramp I have ever used. You have very, very little time to make a go/stop decision, looking virtually backwards while accelerating around a long uphill bend.
I believe they may be changing it in fact, lots of groundworks ongoing last time I was there. It can't be much fun in an HGV.

7mike

3,005 posts

192 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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CrutyRammers said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
if you can't make that junction safely, stay off the motorways (if not the roads altogether)
Have you driven it? It's by far the worst on-ramp I have ever used. You have very, very little time to make a go/stop decision, looking virtually backwards while accelerating around a long uphill bend.
I believe they may be changing it in fact, lots of groundworks ongoing last time I was there. It can't be much fun in an HGV.
Some history behind this junction: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/6-683/

..and yes there is work going on, I believe to improve it (not that PH driving gods need it though wink )

I'll be on it this afternoon so if I'm not back by tea time someone let Hugo know I've taken his advice thumbup

Hugo a Gogo

23,378 posts

232 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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there are plenty of dual carriageways with 70 limits that are just as bad, if not worse. I've been on lots of worse junctions on unrestricted autobahns too

yes, it's busy and it's uphill. yes, it's pretty bad but not impossible
No fun in a heavy vehicle I'd imagine though, but buses and trucks are used to just pulling out and not worrying about those behind wink

Blakewater

4,303 posts

156 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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7mike said:
CrutyRammers said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
if you can't make that junction safely, stay off the motorways (if not the roads altogether)
Have you driven it? It's by far the worst on-ramp I have ever used. You have very, very little time to make a go/stop decision, looking virtually backwards while accelerating around a long uphill bend.
I believe they may be changing it in fact, lots of groundworks ongoing last time I was there. It can't be much fun in an HGV.
Some history behind this junction: http://www.cbrd.co.uk/badjunctions/6-683/

..and yes there is work going on, I believe to improve it (not that PH driving gods need it though wink )

I'll be on it this afternoon so if I'm not back by tea time someone let Hugo know I've taken his advice thumbup
It's all being redesigned for the new Heysham Link Road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_zx2JJTRE

This is a fun junction coming out of the Low Sizergh Barn car park onto the NSL dual carriageway.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Sizergh,+Kenda...

You just have to have your wits about you and not be afraid of putting your foot down, people who faff around are the ones who find junctions like this particularly difficult and scary. The only real danger is the drivers coming along the main road either not paying attention or deliberately being uncooperative because they want to be self righteous about you pulling out in front of them rather than changing lanes or easing off to make a gap.

Hugo a Gogo

23,378 posts

232 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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in and out of this Little Chef / Travelodge just before Scotch Corner on the A1
https://goo.gl/maps/4JrL0

7mike

3,005 posts

192 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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Blakewater said:
This is a fun junction coming out of the Low Sizergh Barn car park onto the NSL dual carriageway.
I used to teach learners in Kendal, the BP garage on the opposite side could be a bit of a challenge too; view slopes away then disappears behind the BP post and traffic reluctant to move to L2 because their exit is coming up soon. I was a gluten for punishment, I used to get the learners to practice getting out! hehe

7mike

3,005 posts

192 months

Thursday 5th March 2015
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Hugo a Gogo said:
No fun in a heavy vehicle I'd imagine though, but buses and trucks are used to just pulling out and not worrying about those behind wink
TBH, all the buses and trucks I've driven haven't, to the best of my knowledge had the ability to worry wink