1:12 Tamiya McLaren MP4/6 Upgrade Options?

[Kozy]

Not a scale model exactly, but loosely related:



Laser etched on anodised aluminium.

[fatboy69]

Kozy said:

Not a scale model exactly, but loosely related:



Laser etched on anodised aluminium.

From where did you get that? Expensive I guess.

Looks awesome - anymore photos please?

[dr_gn]

Kozy said:

Not a scale model exactly, but loosely related:



Laser etched on anodised aluminium.

"Third Angle Projection Drawing" Hmmm

[Kozy]

dr_gn said:

"Third Angle Projection Drawing" Hmmm

Admittedly, not quite true on this one with the view arrangement.

fatboy69 said:

From where did you get that? Expensive I guess.

Looks awesome - anymore photos please?

https://www.facebook.com/blackartgraphics/posts/29...

[dr_gn]

For the reasons already discussed about logos on this thread, I'd be amazed if he didn't find himself in deep water over their use in those pieces. He says on his Kickstarter page "The only thing I can't do is use the manufacturer logos, which is a shame." Yet on the MP4/5 plate alone he appears to have Good Year, Marlboro, Honda, Showa, Shell, Courtaulds and Boss.

[Kozy]

dr_gn said:

For the reasons already discussed about logos on this thread,

I must have missed that?

dr_gn said:

I'd be amazed if he didn't find himself in deep water over their use in those pieces. He says on his Kickstarter page "The only thing I can't do is use the manufacturer logos, which is a shame." Yet on the MP4/5 plate alone he appears to have Good Year, Marlboro, Honda, Showa, Shell, Courtaulds and Boss.

That's race livery, not the vehicle manufacturer's logo. Replicating a race livery is not going to be interpreted the same way as using the manufacturer logo to give the impression it is an official product. Livery is regularly shown on artwork depicting racing cars.

Anyway, I'll stop sidetracking your thread now, I just thought you might find it interesting.

[dr_gn]

Kozy said:

dr_gn said:

For the reasons already discussed about logos on this thread,

I must have missed that?

dr_gn said:

I'd be amazed if he didn't find himself in deep water over their use in those pieces. He says on his Kickstarter page "The only thing I can't do is use the manufacturer logos, which is a shame." Yet on the MP4/5 plate alone he appears to have Good Year, Marlboro, Honda, Showa, Shell, Courtaulds and Boss.

That's race livery, not the vehicle manufacturer's logo. Replicating a race livery is not going to be interpreted the same way as using the manufacturer logo to give the impression it is an official product. Livery is regularly shown on artwork depicting racing cars.

Anyway, I'll stop sidetracking your thread now, I just thought you might find it interesting.

Sorry, wrong thread, it was my other one on the Tamiya MP4/4:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=4&a...

To summarise, Tamiya used to include full Marlboro decals (the orange bits), GoodYear logos etc. None of these appear in the latest boxings of the kit because those manufacturers have stoped Tamiya using them. I believe Tamiya would have to pay to use the logos. The solution for the modeler is to simply buy an aftermarket decal set.

This is why I made the comment - if Tamiya can't use them, how come the laser etch guy can?

No problem with the thread sidetrack, it's all good stuff. In fat I have more than a passing interest in potential issues such as this at present.

ETA, Sorry, I mised the fact that it's you who's selling them. I should have addressed my points to you rather than makeing them comments. Apologies. I think they are still valid though.

Edited by dr_gn on Sunday 27th April 21:48

[Kozy]

dr_gn said:

To summarise, Tamiya used to include full Marlboro decals (the orange bits), GoodYear logos etc. None of these appear in the latest boxings of the kit because those manufacturers have stoped Tamiya using them. I believe Tamiya would have to pay to use the logos. The solution for the modeler is to simply buy an aftermarket decal set.

This is why I made the comment - if Tamiya can't use them, how come the laser etch guy can?

No problem with the thread sidetrack, it's all good stuff. In fat I have more than a passing interest in potential issues such as this at present.

Well I think you've already answered your question in more ways than one in that post!

Firstly, Tamiya used to use the logos, until the companies in question asked them to stop. I think the issues typically arise when the trademark holder requests the infringer to 'cease and desist', and the infringer ignores the request.

Secondly, I doubt those aftermarket kits are properly licensed. The scales involved will most likely fall under the radar of any licensing department, which then brings us back to the first point. For one off commissions, rather than large production runs, I cannot see there being any chance of legal issues.

That's my take on it, at least.

May I ask what drives your interest in these issues?

[Kozy]

dr_gn said:

ETA, Sorry, I mised the fact that it's you who's selling them. I should have addressed my points to you rather than makeing them comments. Apologies. I think they are still valid though.

I wasn't aiming to link myself to it, but well spotted.

All valid comments as you say.

[dr_gn]

Kozy said:

dr_gn said:

ETA, Sorry, I mised the fact that it's you who's selling them. I should have addressed my points to you rather than makeing them comments. Apologies. I think they are still valid though.

I wasn't aiming to link myself to it, but well spotted.

All valid comments as you say.

Don't get me wrong, as a design engineer myself, I love the concept of the etchings. All I'm saying is that trademarks, logos, whatever are a legal minefield.

I initially thought these weren't one-off's ie that you'd be advertising, for example, the McLaren on your website. If they are custom made to order then I don't see a problem.

My interest is partly due to my late grandad being a commercial artist and my mum having a lot of his original work. Some of this was done for himself, others for clients. If my mum ever wanted to print and sell his work, things get...difficult in terms of distinguishing who owns the rights to what. If the owners of the original work decided to exercise their legal rights, things could, in theory, get very expensive.

BTW I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume that you have the 'black box' version of the 1:20 Tamiya MP4/5B ?

[Kozy]

dr_gn said:

Don't get me wrong, as a design engineer myself, I love the concept of the etchings. All I'm saying is that trademarks, logos, whatever are a legal minefield.

I initially thought these weren't one-off's ie that you'd be advertising, for example, the McLaren on your website. If they are custom made to order then I don't see a problem.

Yes I've discussed it with quite a few people now, generally the stuff that I do won't contain any logos (in the sense of using the manufacturer one in the drawing border as it could be seen to be attempting to pass the work off as an 'official product') but in the case of race livery and for one off work, I don't foresee any problems. If I do get a C&D letter then I'll simply stop using whatever it was that caused it to be sent but I'd expect I'd need to be rolling off these things in a fairly significant number before that became a possibility.

With regards to 'Official Product' and licensing, I have already been in touch with Ford to ask about licensing the use of the blue oval on the work and they said I could have a license but at a fairly significant upfront cost.

It's something I may look in to down the line.

dr_gn said:

My interest is partly due to my late grandad being a commercial artist and my mum having a lot of his original work. Some of this was done for himself, others for clients. If my mum ever wanted to print and sell his work, things get...difficult in terms of distinguishing who owns the rights to what. If the owners of the original work decided to exercise their legal rights, things could, in theory, get very expensive.

Yes I can imagine that must be a bit of a headache.

dr_gn said:

BTW I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume that you have the 'black box' version of the 1:20 Tamiya MP4/5B ?

Good guess.

[dr_gn]

Kozy said:

dr_gn said:

Don't get me wrong, as a design engineer myself, I love the concept of the etchings. All I'm saying is that trademarks, logos, whatever are a legal minefield.

I initially thought these weren't one-off's ie that you'd be advertising, for example, the McLaren on your website. If they are custom made to order then I don't see a problem.

Yes I've discussed it with quite a few people now, generally the stuff that I do won't contain any logos (in the sense of using the manufacturer one in the drawing border as it could be seen to be attempting to pass the work off as an 'official product') but in the case of race livery and for one off work, I don't foresee any problems. If I do get a C&D letter then I'll simply stop using whatever it was that caused it to be sent but I'd expect I'd need to be rolling off these things in a fairly significant number before that became a possibility.

With regards to 'Official Product' and licensing, I have already been in touch with Ford to ask about licensing the use of the blue oval on the work and they said I could have a license but at a fairly significant upfront cost.

It's something I may look in to down the line.

dr_gn said:

My interest is partly due to my late grandad being a commercial artist and my mum having a lot of his original work. Some of this was done for himself, others for clients. If my mum ever wanted to print and sell his work, things get...difficult in terms of distinguishing who owns the rights to what. If the owners of the original work decided to exercise their legal rights, things could, in theory, get very expensive.

Yes I can imagine that must be a bit of a headache.

dr_gn said:

BTW I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume that you have the 'black box' version of the 1:20 Tamiya MP4/5B ?

Good guess.

If it's 'art', are the rules different?

If an artist paints a picture of an F1 car, with all logos present, do they have to pay licence fees to all sponsors I wonder?

Slightly different thing, but IIRC in Germany you aren't allowed to display a swastika (hakenkreuz), unless it's for "artistic purposes". Most model kits don't include them, but again they are available as aftermarket items. It would seem that if it's 'art' some rules can be interpreted differently.

[Kozy]

While I don't think the rules are technically any different, a piece of artwork is I think interpreted slightly differently to someone putting the Ford logo on keyrings and flogging them online or down the market. Although both might technically speaking be copyright infringement, they sit at opposite ends of the moral spectrum. One is a homage, the other is blatantly ripping off the trademark owner.

You can find plenty of examples of paintings of cars on various online art stores that use the manufacturer logo and/or model badge as part of the work, and not just 'as displayed' on the car either. Having spoken to one of the artists producing such work, he said he's never had any problems and said the same as me, when someone asks him to stop doing it, he will do.

I'm not sure that it really offers anything, but all of my pieces have a note saying that the work is original art, in no way associated with or endorsed by the manufacturer and all trademarks are the property of the respective owners. My thinking is that I want it to be clear that it is NOT attempting to pass of the work as official products. I have however had it noted that this could actually be worse than saying nothing at all, as it may suggest that I am aware of potential legal issues and ignoring them, which would mean my headroom for using 'I didn't know' as an excuse, should it end up in court, would be reduced.

All I know is that there is merchandise in the PH shop using the same kind of wording (the 911 T shirts in particular) so if it's good enough for PH, it's good enough for me.

Edited by Kozy on Monday 28th April 12:03