Cooking models vs hyper hot hatches
Discussion
Hi Guys,
Been having this conversation on the train with a buddy of mine.
Would a cooking model 996/997 be able to keep up with the new breed of hyper hatches:
On the Road
On the Track
0-60
0-120
0-150
B-road blast
The assumption is the same driver (experienced racer)......my thoughts were that an inexperienced driver could paddle a hyper hatch pretty well with the fancy gearbox and out of the box set-up.....but in the right hands the 911's will still put up a good fight and at higher speed may have the edge...but overall very close.
Discuss...
IceBoy
Been having this conversation on the train with a buddy of mine.
Would a cooking model 996/997 be able to keep up with the new breed of hyper hatches:
On the Road
On the Track
0-60
0-120
0-150
B-road blast
The assumption is the same driver (experienced racer)......my thoughts were that an inexperienced driver could paddle a hyper hatch pretty well with the fancy gearbox and out of the box set-up.....but in the right hands the 911's will still put up a good fight and at higher speed may have the edge...but overall very close.
Discuss...
IceBoy
- On the Road - hatch probably has the advantage
- On the Track - 996/997 should have an advantage here
- 0-60 - similar
- 0-120 - similar
- 0-150 - similar
- B-road blast - hatch probably has the advantage depending on the road, unless it's track-like
I have a 997 GTS and a 200T RS Clio. The Clio isn't in the "hyper hatch" bracket but being light and having 197bhp and a DCT gearbox it's pretty nippy and it's very easy to drive at a decent pace. No where near the performance of the Porsche on the straights on in the corners but can carry impressive speed for a small hatch.
I was at Snetterton recently in the Porsche and was lapping with a new Focus RS which was pretty quick although it was evident he was pushing the Focus harder than I was in the Porsche. When I started pushing a bit harder I did leave him behind but to be honest there wasn't too much in it. The GTS has 408bhp stock, I would think the RS and a standard 997 Carrera would be pretty well matched.
I was at Snetterton recently in the Porsche and was lapping with a new Focus RS which was pretty quick although it was evident he was pushing the Focus harder than I was in the Porsche. When I started pushing a bit harder I did leave him behind but to be honest there wasn't too much in it. The GTS has 408bhp stock, I would think the RS and a standard 997 Carrera would be pretty well matched.
I would disagree with that.
In 'normal' driving, you don't drive around in 2nd gear all the time just in case; you're normally in a higher gear than you would be for adequete performance. In comparison, a modern (turbocharged) hot hatch will have the torque to get an immediate jump no matter what gear they're in.
That's not to say a naturally aspirated 911 is slow, but you do need to use every last rev to make it count. In reality, you will only demonstrate how quick the car is when you are doing some very illegal speeds.
The reality is they are not an autobahn stormer. When you're in top gear in the fast lane, going with the ebb and flow, the real car to be in is a premimum turbo diesel - my old A5 3.0TDI genuinely felt like the fastest car in the world when in its zone: 50-80mph.
Personally, i'd say just enjoy a 911 for being a 911. Sometimes it's fun to see how you weigh up, but i would not 'take on' a modern hatch in any scenario as you may very well get embarrased.
In 'normal' driving, you don't drive around in 2nd gear all the time just in case; you're normally in a higher gear than you would be for adequete performance. In comparison, a modern (turbocharged) hot hatch will have the torque to get an immediate jump no matter what gear they're in.
That's not to say a naturally aspirated 911 is slow, but you do need to use every last rev to make it count. In reality, you will only demonstrate how quick the car is when you are doing some very illegal speeds.
The reality is they are not an autobahn stormer. When you're in top gear in the fast lane, going with the ebb and flow, the real car to be in is a premimum turbo diesel - my old A5 3.0TDI genuinely felt like the fastest car in the world when in its zone: 50-80mph.
Personally, i'd say just enjoy a 911 for being a 911. Sometimes it's fun to see how you weigh up, but i would not 'take on' a modern hatch in any scenario as you may very well get embarrased.
suspect that on track and straight line pulls the cooking models would struggle against a modern hyperhatch with trick diffs, tyres, turbo engines and gearboxes. Modern hatches are producing over 300BHP (similar to Carreras) and much more torque than any 996/7 Carrera.
Think the comment regarding "on the road" is so true. In most instances it is about attitude to risk rather than skill/car performance. This only probably doesn't apply on an open, well sighted, lightly trafficked, lightly policed country road of which they are few and far between.
Think the comment regarding "on the road" is so true. In most instances it is about attitude to risk rather than skill/car performance. This only probably doesn't apply on an open, well sighted, lightly trafficked, lightly policed country road of which they are few and far between.
c4sman said:
suspect that on track and straight line pulls the cooking models would struggle against a modern hyperhatch with trick diffs, tyres, turbo engines and gearboxes. Modern hatches are producing over 300BHP (similar to Carreras) and much more torque than any 996/7 Carrera.
In my experience the big power hatches in showroom spec are often very quick for the first few laps of a track day but usually retire by lunchtime with cooked brakes and shredded front tyres. While the slightly slower cooking 911/boxster/cayman will last the day on standard equipment.
boxsey said:
c4sman said:
suspect that on track and straight line pulls the cooking models would struggle against a modern hyperhatch with trick diffs, tyres, turbo engines and gearboxes. Modern hatches are producing over 300BHP (similar to Carreras) and much more torque than any 996/7 Carrera.
In my experience the big power hatches in showroom spec are often very quick for the first few laps of a track day but usually retire by lunchtime with cooked brakes and shredded front tyres. While the slightly slower cooking 911/boxster/cayman will last the day on standard equipment.IceBoy said:
Hi Guys,
Been having this conversation on the train with a buddy of mine.
IceBoy
Wrong move, you guys shouldn't discuss these things on our stupid trains. Get out there, drive and then show us the mayhem Been having this conversation on the train with a buddy of mine.
IceBoy
Joke a side, depends on the driver I guess. Almost everyone I know who has a 996/997 also drives another german hatch though, usually Audi,Bmw, merc or VW. For me, they exist purely because of a problem that should not have been there before! (Traffic, s
t roads, vandalism, practicalities and etc..) They are great cars but in perfect urban conditions, I doubt anyone would actually prefer to buy them as daily (self-included)IceBoy said:
Hi Guys,
Been having this conversation on the train with a buddy of mine.
Would a cooking model 996/997 be able to keep up with the new breed of hyper hatches:
On the Road
On the Track
0-60
0-120
0-150
B-road blast
The assumption is the same driver (experienced racer)......my thoughts were that an inexperienced driver could paddle a hyper hatch pretty well with the fancy gearbox and out of the box set-up.....but in the right hands the 911's will still put up a good fight and at higher speed may have the edge...but overall very close.
Discuss...
IceBoy
This is such a general question its impossible to answer. It depends on so many variables;Been having this conversation on the train with a buddy of mine.
Would a cooking model 996/997 be able to keep up with the new breed of hyper hatches:
On the Road
On the Track
0-60
0-120
0-150
B-road blast
The assumption is the same driver (experienced racer)......my thoughts were that an inexperienced driver could paddle a hyper hatch pretty well with the fancy gearbox and out of the box set-up.....but in the right hands the 911's will still put up a good fight and at higher speed may have the edge...but overall very close.
Discuss...
IceBoy
Which specific car and model
Which Tyres? Period?
What road or track?
Weather etc
Drivers capability to extract performance from different cars that require different driving styles
Drivers attitude to risk
You would get a different result every time unless the power differential was huge. Its endless!
I have just bought one of the last of the RS3 Sportback as a "sensible" daily driver ...
OK, it's Turbo, but the engine and sound are astonishing !
OK, it's dual clutch auto and four wheel drive --- but it'll see off almost anything with a verified 3.6s to 60 ....
It has a great sound system, seats 5 with reasonable luggage in comfort, is small around country lanes and it's plenty good enough for fun away from the track --- particularly in this weather.
And the quality is probably better than Porsche in near standard trim ---
All for £40k .... and it'll probably still be worth £30k in three years and 30k miles time ...
So it's not a track car ??
OK, it's Turbo, but the engine and sound are astonishing !
OK, it's dual clutch auto and four wheel drive --- but it'll see off almost anything with a verified 3.6s to 60 ....
It has a great sound system, seats 5 with reasonable luggage in comfort, is small around country lanes and it's plenty good enough for fun away from the track --- particularly in this weather.
And the quality is probably better than Porsche in near standard trim ---
All for £40k .... and it'll probably still be worth £30k in three years and 30k miles time ...
So it's not a track car ??
ChrisW. said:
OK, it's dual clutch auto and four wheel drive --- but it'll see off almost anything with a verified 3.6s to 60 ....
All for £40k .... and it'll probably still be worth £30k in three years and 30k miles time ...
A superbike at a tenth of the price could do you...http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes-for-sale/honda/cbr1000rr-fireblade/3439478/All for £40k .... and it'll probably still be worth £30k in three years and 30k miles time ...
ChrisW. said:
I have just bought one of the last of the RS3 Sportback as a "sensible" daily driver ...
And the quality is probably better than Porsche in near standard trim ---
Well, I think Audi with RS and R in particular much better than many of the modern Porsche's, I would say that they are sort of replaced Porsche really. They are fantastic cars, yet quite modern, not so much extravaganza drama. I would not count them (RS) as hot-hatches.And the quality is probably better than Porsche in near standard trim ---
With my mildly modified 986S as the base the latest Civic Type R and Megane Cup are arguably quicker on the road. For me it felt much easier to swap to the hatch and be on it almost immediately. These hot hatches raise your confidence levels even higher than a Boxster. You can drive them harder for longer as you are a bit less busy and don't have to concentrate quite as hard to go the same speed.
In all probability, i would think that the uber hot hatches would be quicker on the road. On the track they would again more likely to be quicker until the brakes and tyres went off. On a full day at the circuit, the 911 may be quicker for longer - if that makes sense? On saying that, The 911's have more capacity in thier chasis for bolt on performance compared to the hatches, which are pretty well optimised already. You will get big power gains with the turbo's but they inevitaably lead to detonation/unreliability. My 964 has a pretty standard engine but would probably see off the hatches on a circuit because of the chasis upgrades.
In short, I would say that in standard form the uber hot hatches have the edge but the 911's ultimately have more potential.
In short, I would say that in standard form the uber hot hatches have the edge but the 911's ultimately have more potential.
Steve Rance said:
In all probability, i would think that the uber hot hatches would be quicker on the road. On the track they would again more likely to be quicker until the brakes and tyres went off. On a full day at the circuit, the 911 may be quicker for longer - if that makes sense? On saying that, The 911's have more capacity in thier chasis for bolt on performance compared to the hatches, which are pretty well optimised already. You will get big power gains with the turbo's but they inevitaably lead to detonation/unreliability. My 964 has a pretty standard engine but would probably see off the hatches on a circuit because of the chasis upgrades.
In short, I would say that in standard form the uber hot hatches have the edge but the 911's ultimately have more potential.
We should put you in a GTI Clubsport S vs 996 C2 and 997 C2 on a circuit like Bedford Autodrome West circuit and find out for ourselves. My own view is the hatchback would destroy them even over a whole day. They're supplied from the factory with bigger two piece floating rotors and Cup 2s nowadays. Even interior stripped out. Same fellow who was responsible for GT3 development has been responsible for VW's ultimate hatch project. Civic Type R also a road racer.In short, I would say that in standard form the uber hot hatches have the edge but the 911's ultimately have more potential.
To call them hyper hatches is a bit OTT. When they have 400-500bhp from the factory I think hyper hatch cache applicable.
GTI CSS Ring time 7.47
964 RS 8.28
996.1 C2 8.17
997.1 C2 8.15
Tyres aside thats a big difference. I actually think an early Cayman S and Boxster S would fare better than cooking 911s. Having said all this I'd still take the 911s in a heart beat! The beauty of the hatchback is economy, practicality and anonymity and the duality of occasionally getting GTI character when the kids aren't in the car with you but still no substitute for a 911 IMO.
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