Clio 200 questions

[Technomatt]

ferrisbueller said:

I'm not trying to play anything down. I said above that there are people who have had issues, but that the issue doesn't affect all cars and the numbers are hard to ascertain. I've also said your leaping to a conclusion that the shift quality when cold equals that issue isn't well founded. I've also asked what your agenda is here......as you certainly appear to have one.

Apologies if you find my reasoned approach and refusal to crumble in the face of your opinions disagreeable.

OK. So I suspect your 'reasoned approach' just wants to ignore all the proven existing data and feedback because you are either an owner, an ex-owner and you would prefer the truth to be hidden, particularly from someone that might have a posting style you find less than agreeable? About right?

[ferrisbueller]

Technomatt said:

OK. So I suspect your 'reasoned approach' just wants to ignore all the proven existing data and feedback because you are either an owner, an ex-owner and you would prefer the truth to be hidden, particularly from someone that might have a posting style you find less than agreeable? About right?

No. And another blind leap.

I've merely requested you to substantiate opinions with quality data, which you've not been able to do. Also, to explain your interest in the topic, which again you haven't done. I own one, that's not a secret, it's in my profile and in various other pages here where I've posted. I hadn't noted any particular style of posting from you, though opinion based conjecture appears to be a theme in this and other threads.

I'll leave it with you, as I think we've reached something of an impasse and little of it actually relates to initial subject matter.

[Technomatt]

Mr Jenks said:

Hardly proof positive is it? An internet poll snapshot of 264 owners....
Whilst I am aware that gearboxes are a known issue on the 197/200`s 1 in 5 does sound high.
As said, they almost all suffer from poor gearchange from cold, I wonder how many of the above 23% were replaced for that?

It's all a conspiracy theory.

I know an owner that hasn't had a problem so it can't be true

[Mr Jenks]

Technomatt said:

Mr Jenks said:

Hardly proof positive is it? An internet poll snapshot of 264 owners....
Whilst I am aware that gearboxes are a known issue on the 197/200`s 1 in 5 does sound high.
As said, they almost all suffer from poor gearchange from cold, I wonder how many of the above 23% were replaced for that?

It's all a conspiracy theory.

I know an owner that hasn't had a problem so it can't be true

By the same theory then: I only know one owner and he had a problem, therefore they are all going to have that problem

I actually know of lots of cars that haven`t had a problem, I also know of several cars that have had a problem.

[Technomatt]

ferrisbueller said:

Technomatt said:

OK. So I suspect your 'reasoned approach' just wants to ignore all the proven existing data and feedback because you are either an owner, an ex-owner and you would prefer the truth to be hidden, particularly from someone that might have a posting style you find less than agreeable? About right?

No. And another blind leap.

I've merely requested you to substantiate opinions with quality data, which you've not been able to do. Also, to explain your interest in the topic, which again you haven't done. I own one, that's not a secret, it's in my profile and in various other pages here where I've posted. I hadn't noted any particular style of posting from you, though opinion based conjecture appears to be a theme in this and other threads.

I'll leave it with you, as I think we've reached something of an impasse and little of it actually relates to initial subject matter.

Well, I have given you some hard data gathered over years from an owner’s forum. The gearbox issues are ongoing, regularly documented and extensive.

I suspect your definition of a hard data requirement is just an excuse to try and shape a point of view biased by ownership. That is understandable.

If this was a minor or infrequent issue just being blown out of proportion, I would agree.

Unfortunately, it’s not.

[Technomatt]

Mr Jenks said:

By the same theory then: I only know one owner and he had a problem, therefore they are all going to have that problem

I actually know of lots of cars that haven`t had a problem, I also know of several cars that have had a problem.

So there is a problem then?

No disrespect, I think I will stick with something a bit more representative than just some mates individual opinion.

[Mr Jenks]

Technomatt said:

So there is a problem then?

No disrespect, I think I will stick with something a bit more representative than just some mates individual opinion.

Nobody denies a problem, the size of the problem and the way the figures have been acquired are the question.
An internet forum poll never has been, and never will be refresentative of anything other than those on the forum.
My knowledge doesn`t come from a few mates down the pub, but real cars, real customers.

[Technomatt]

Mr Jenks said:

Technomatt said:

So there is a problem then?

No disrespect, I think I will stick with something a bit more representative than just some mates individual opinion.

Nobody denies a problem, the size of the problem and the way the figures have been acquired are the question.
An internet forum poll never has been, and never will be refresentative of anything other than those on the forum.
My knowledge doesn`t come from a few mates down the pub, but real cars, real customers.

Well, unless you have something more substantial than just your random gut feeling, the feedback from those 264 actual owners over many years remains very valid.

[KENEFICK]

All seems well currently with the gearbox and Clio, it is tight for the first one-two gear changes of a cold morning but very nice and crisp once warm.

I can imagine the syncro's being an issue with these as they are high revving and the type of car you go through the box constantly on a nice piece of road.

I am not too concerned currently, I have had previous gearbox issue on my VW Golf and my track car.

Is there any known cost for replacement/repairs

[Technomatt]

KENEFICK said:

All seems well currently with the gearbox and Clio, it is tight for the first one-two gear changes of a cold morning but very nice and crisp once warm.

I can imagine the syncro's being an issue with these as they are high revving and the type of car you go through the box constantly on a nice piece of road.

I am not too concerned currently, I have had previous gearbox issue on my VW Golf and my track car.

Is there any known cost for replacement/repairs

Just keep an eye on it and as I said before, if other troubles start appearing then get it into a decent dealer to at least register a potential problem.

Costs if it happens? Depends on the dealer and Renault, they may do the lot or you may have to negotiate, so be prepared for a complete fk around.

Out of warranty may attract a goodwill payment, but don’t bank on it. Out of warranty costs can be extremely expensive, you are looking at either a new box, a full rebuild and possibly a clutch, slave cylinder etc.

The gearboxes fail due to poor design and build, not the way people drive, although Renault might try to play that card for the uninitiated.

Failure rates are high, so don’t fall for the ‘this is an insignificant issue ’ line.

[GrumpyTwig]

KENEFICK said:

All seems well currently with the gearbox and Clio, it is tight for the first one-two gear changes of a cold morning but very nice and crisp once warm.

I can imagine the syncro's being an issue with these as they are high revving and the type of car you go through the box constantly on a nice piece of road.

I am not too concerned currently, I have had previous gearbox issue on my VW Golf and my track car.

Is there any known cost for replacement/repairs

Costs at a dealer are about £1200 for replacement box and fitting and removal, some try to charge a lot more but that should be the most you pay them.

You can get boxes off ebay either nearly new or new/refurbed for a few hundred and get an indy to do it, there's plenty of specialists around filling in for the slightly patchy dealers.

The problems with the boxes aren't generally across the board though, very rare for early 197s to have any issues for example. Since my box was changed it's been pretty good, they are NOT the best manual box ever designed and work a lot better when pushing on than driving slowly.
I've not driven it any differently since so either the original was bad or they've redesigned them internally, something which had been suggested.

A change of oil might help it too as the oil they come with in the box is supposed to be a bit... odd.

[Technomatt]

roystinho said:

KENEFICK said:

Strange to have gearbox internals made of Carbon, is this a know thing?

Brass sounds just a soft and wearing a material too.

I'm just waiting for a helpful reply, someone is looking into it for me

No rush

[Swervin_Mervin]

Technomatt said:

KENEFICK said:

All seems well currently with the gearbox and Clio, it is tight for the first one-two gear changes of a cold morning but very nice and crisp once warm.

I can imagine the syncro's being an issue with these as they are high revving and the type of car you go through the box constantly on a nice piece of road.

I am not too concerned currently, I have had previous gearbox issue on my VW Golf and my track car.

Is there any known cost for replacement/repairs

Just keep an eye on it and as I said before, if other troubles start appearing then get it into a decent dealer to at least register a potential problem.

Costs if it happens? Depends on the dealer and Renault, they may do the lot or you may have to negotiate, so be prepared for a complete fk around.

Out of warranty may attract a goodwill payment, but don’t bank on it. Out of warranty costs can be extremely expensive, you are looking at either a new box, a full rebuild and possibly a clutch, slave cylinder etc.

The gearboxes fail due to poor design and build, not the way people drive, although Renault might try to play that card for the uninitiated.

Failure rates are high, so don’t fall for the ‘this is an insignificant issue ’ line.

Just to add to that. My gearbox rebuild cost was about £2k. The approach taken regarding rebuild/replace varies from dealer to dealer, but mine (in Stockport) preferred to rebuild as they felt they had more control over what was going back in the car.

RUK paid a goodwill contribution of 75% after some arguing, despite me being out of warranty (IIRC it was done May 2011 and the warranty expired March 2011).

Oh and from my conversation with the chief technician, it was a common problem. Common enough to have protocols at both that dealer and the previous one he worked at.

[Technomatt]

roystinho said:

KENEFICK said:

Strange to have gearbox internals made of Carbon, is this a know thing?

Brass sounds just a soft and wearing a material too.

I'm just waiting for a helpful reply, someone is looking into it for me

So, due to the lack of a reply on modified internals for the Clio 197/200 gearbox, I think we can safely say Renault have never modified the gearbox, addressed the weak synchro issues or acknowledged the huge number of failures.

Buyers beware. Potential gearbox ticking time bomb. Chocolate powered.

[roystinho]

Technomatt said:

roystinho said:

KENEFICK said:

Strange to have gearbox internals made of Carbon, is this a know thing?

Brass sounds just a soft and wearing a material too.

I'm just waiting for a helpful reply, someone is looking into it for me

So, due to the lack of a reply on modified internals for the Clio 197/200 gearbox, I think we can safely say Renault have never modified the gearbox, addressed the weak synchro issues or acknowledged the huge number of failures.

Buyers beware. Potential gearbox ticking time bomb. Chocolate powered.

Apologies, didn't realise you were so desperate to find out. The people I've asked are extremely busy, one works at Renault, one a designer who works with numerous companies including Renault.

Irrespective of that, as you rightly say, take the gearbox situation into consideration when looking to buy a 197/200

[deadmau5]

It is well known that the synchros on first, second and third are modified with a single piece, solid baulk ring instead of the original three piece.

It is also quite common for those with repaired/replaced boxes to have quite stiff changes once the box is quite warm. I suppose stiff is seen as better than crunching though!

Edited by deadmau5 on Friday 19th April 07:59

[Technomatt]

deadmau5 said:

It is well known that the synchros on first, second and third are modified with a single piece, solid baulk ring instead of the original three piece.

It is also quite common for those with repaired/replaced boxes to have quite stiff changes once the box is quite warm. I suppose stiff is seen as better than crunching though!

Edited by deadmau5 on Friday 19th April 07:59

Well in that case, you are the only bloke that knows about this modification.

I doubt it's true.

[roystinho]

Technomatt said:

deadmau5 said:

It is well known that the synchros on first, second and third are modified with a single piece, solid baulk ring instead of the original three piece.

It is also quite common for those with repaired/replaced boxes to have quite stiff changes once the box is quite warm. I suppose stiff is seen as better than crunching though!

Edited by deadmau5 on Friday 19th April 07:59

Well in that case, you are the only bloke that knows about this modification.

I doubt it's true.

This is the modification I've heard of too.

Out of interest, as I've heard of none, has anybody who had had a replacement or repair had their 'box fail again?

[Swervin_Mervin]

Technomatt said:

deadmau5 said:

It is well known that the synchros on first, second and third are modified with a single piece, solid baulk ring instead of the original three piece.

It is also quite common for those with repaired/replaced boxes to have quite stiff changes once the box is quite warm. I suppose stiff is seen as better than crunching though!

Edited by deadmau5 on Friday 19th April 07:59

Well in that case, you are the only bloke that knows about this modification.

I doubt it's true.

I'm sure there was a Slovenian chap (Simoximo) on the 197 site that either had pics of the new baulk rings or had seen them as his mate repaired his 'box for him.

[deadmau5]

Technomatt said:

deadmau5 said:

It is well known that the synchros on first, second and third are modified with a single piece, solid baulk ring instead of the original three piece.

It is also quite common for those with repaired/replaced boxes to have quite stiff changes once the box is quite warm. I suppose stiff is seen as better than crunching though!

Edited by deadmau5 on Friday 19th April 07:59

Well in that case, you are the only bloke that knows about this modification.

I doubt it's true.

Good grief. Have you looked at anything on clio197.net apart from that graph?