Renault Espace fun and games - not!
Discussion
Hi all,
Below is a post that I have made on the Honest John site regarding the ongoing fun and games with the Espace - any contributions would be appreciated and yes I know I should not have bought it in the first place!
05 2.2 EGR, loss of power, management light, oil l - DSRenault
Hi Folks,
I am the latest in the line of unofficial development engineers for the famed Espace 2.2DCI, however I will not be beaten by a mere machine (hopes).
In six months I have been through two EGR valves, prior to the last change oil was finding its way out of the valve connection to the induction pipe/hose and of course was loosing oil though not at a tremendous rate - also along with this the management light would come on under mid to high load and the turbo would cut out until the engine was turned off.
Took the car to a specialist and eventually to a main dealer who both diagnosed that the EGR valve (the second by this time) needed replacing as this was causing oil to be drawn through.
Valve changed pipes cleaned and all was well for about 1-2 months then exactly the same problems happen again with the adde bonus of oil appearing somwhere out the top of the engine as the underside of the air intake box is covered.
I have booked the car in at a different garage (one with a lot of experience with diesel engines) for Monday but wondered if anyone could add to the list of things I will ask them to look at below:-
Clean EGR valve and pipework as required (possibley replace)
Oil and filter change to fully synthetic
Check breather pipes (top near injectors)
Check turbo, bearings seals etc.
Check turbo hoses
Check inlet manifold
Check and replace brake light switch and reset
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Below is a post that I have made on the Honest John site regarding the ongoing fun and games with the Espace - any contributions would be appreciated and yes I know I should not have bought it in the first place!
05 2.2 EGR, loss of power, management light, oil l - DSRenault
Hi Folks,
I am the latest in the line of unofficial development engineers for the famed Espace 2.2DCI, however I will not be beaten by a mere machine (hopes).
In six months I have been through two EGR valves, prior to the last change oil was finding its way out of the valve connection to the induction pipe/hose and of course was loosing oil though not at a tremendous rate - also along with this the management light would come on under mid to high load and the turbo would cut out until the engine was turned off.
Took the car to a specialist and eventually to a main dealer who both diagnosed that the EGR valve (the second by this time) needed replacing as this was causing oil to be drawn through.
Valve changed pipes cleaned and all was well for about 1-2 months then exactly the same problems happen again with the adde bonus of oil appearing somwhere out the top of the engine as the underside of the air intake box is covered.
I have booked the car in at a different garage (one with a lot of experience with diesel engines) for Monday but wondered if anyone could add to the list of things I will ask them to look at below:-
Clean EGR valve and pipework as required (possibley replace)
Oil and filter change to fully synthetic
Check breather pipes (top near injectors)
Check turbo, bearings seals etc.
Check turbo hoses
Check inlet manifold
Check and replace brake light switch and reset
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Turbo cutting out until restart sounds to me like its just the engine going into a torque limitation limp home. Probably to protect the engine/ alert driver to the issue with the egr valve. valve stuck open will increase the soot production and can damage dpf if fitted so this reaction is quite common. i would not suspect issues with the turbo from this alone.
I cannot understand what you mean by oil coming out of the egr connection though. this doesnt sound right? Do you mean the electrical connection or where it connects to the intake tract?
If there is a lot of oil in the intake then its possible this is coking up the egr valve and making it stick?
I cannot understand what you mean by oil coming out of the egr connection though. this doesnt sound right? Do you mean the electrical connection or where it connects to the intake tract?
If there is a lot of oil in the intake then its possible this is coking up the egr valve and making it stick?
Thankyou for the reply,
Yes the oil is coming out where the egr valve attaches to the inlet pipe as well as from somewhere near the top of the engine as there is oil over the underside of the air intake box.
What do you mean by the dpf?
The turbo seems to sound fine when working as confirmed by previous garage, without taking it apart.
Yes the oil is coming out where the egr valve attaches to the inlet pipe as well as from somewhere near the top of the engine as there is oil over the underside of the air intake box.
What do you mean by the dpf?
The turbo seems to sound fine when working as confirmed by previous garage, without taking it apart.
The oil seems to be the underlying problem in the back of my mind but no garages can seem to determin where it is getting into the induction system.
Previously renualt assured me 100% that it was due to the EGR valve not functioning and not allowing the engine to breath thus pulling oil through.
That is why I thought that oil could be getting in via a turbo seal/bearings.
The engine seems only to shut down the turbo under mid-high load so the point about running on engine oil is interesting but a bit of a chicken and an egg situation regarding the oil getting in again.
Having had it diagnosed plugged into the computer there was a turbo sensor fault.
Previously renualt assured me 100% that it was due to the EGR valve not functioning and not allowing the engine to breath thus pulling oil through.
That is why I thought that oil could be getting in via a turbo seal/bearings.
The engine seems only to shut down the turbo under mid-high load so the point about running on engine oil is interesting but a bit of a chicken and an egg situation regarding the oil getting in again.
Having had it diagnosed plugged into the computer there was a turbo sensor fault.
If the software detects engine runaway (oil ingestion) it should shut down the engine altogether in most cases. this is normally based on engine speed above a threshold on less modern systems though so i wouldnt think its that. The torque limitation doesnt really shut down the turbo, it will however reduce the amount of torque available by probably around 50%. this will of course result in reduced demand for boost pressure and give the feeling of no turbo.
It depends on the actual code you are setting for the egr valve as this could be a number of things but the fact that it sounds like the engien is going into limphome (torque lim) suggests to me that it is valve position deviation (sticky valve) if the engine is burnign more oil than usual or the intake system is full of it this could be the cause of the sticking.
DPF = Diesel particulate filter. It collects soot from the engine and burns it off at regular intervals. its an emissions thing to reduce parts. You may or may not have one but its not really related anyway i wouldnt of thought so dont worry about that too much.
i would have a good look at the state of the egr valve/ clean if required and see if that helps. Check for reasons of oil in intake system and also check all wiring connections to the valve. for starters. bit tricky to say without the actual code description though.
It depends on the actual code you are setting for the egr valve as this could be a number of things but the fact that it sounds like the engien is going into limphome (torque lim) suggests to me that it is valve position deviation (sticky valve) if the engine is burnign more oil than usual or the intake system is full of it this could be the cause of the sticking.
DPF = Diesel particulate filter. It collects soot from the engine and burns it off at regular intervals. its an emissions thing to reduce parts. You may or may not have one but its not really related anyway i wouldnt of thought so dont worry about that too much.
i would have a good look at the state of the egr valve/ clean if required and see if that helps. Check for reasons of oil in intake system and also check all wiring connections to the valve. for starters. bit tricky to say without the actual code description though.
Went through this with ours - 05 2.2dci - last year.
Going into limp-home for a pastime. Had EGR checked and no problems found. Then, one day, the press-in plastic cover over the high-pressure fuel pump pulley popped out and disappeared down the road. Hey presto, no more limp-home, but lots of oil everywhere instead.
It seems that the problem was the - plastic - inlet manifold, which had failed internally and was allowing the crankcase to see boost pressure - enough to pop the cover off.
Inlet manifold is not expensive - £130-odd, I think - but it's a time-consuming job. We finished up with a bill for £800 inc VAT.
Going into limp-home for a pastime. Had EGR checked and no problems found. Then, one day, the press-in plastic cover over the high-pressure fuel pump pulley popped out and disappeared down the road. Hey presto, no more limp-home, but lots of oil everywhere instead.
It seems that the problem was the - plastic - inlet manifold, which had failed internally and was allowing the crankcase to see boost pressure - enough to pop the cover off.
Inlet manifold is not expensive - £130-odd, I think - but it's a time-consuming job. We finished up with a bill for £800 inc VAT.
I too have an Espace that I bitterly regret.
2.2 CDi Grande Privalidge auto.
3 years old, and I've had it for 2 years.
Too many faults to mention.
2 turbos
gearbox
prings dampers
key reader
radio
and much more.
Although its all been warranty work, the total cost has been more than I paid for it !
2.2 CDi Grande Privalidge auto.
3 years old, and I've had it for 2 years.
Too many faults to mention.
2 turbos
gearbox
prings dampers
key reader
radio
and much more.
Although its all been warranty work, the total cost has been more than I paid for it !
No specific details on the fault code for the turbo sensor were given - no fault code is currently coming up for the EGR valve though i believe, yet the same problems.
I have tried listening to see if the turbo is indeed working in limp home mode as suggested but could not hear anything.
I understand that later engines (mines an 05) have the valve mounted vertically and work slightly better. If this is true is it possible to retro fit?
I know that there is no magic wand with enough power to magic this infamous engine into working reasonably reliably, but I would be very grateful for any suggestions on a garage/mechanic who has a good working knowledge and dealt with such issues - I live in SE Kent but would be prepared to travel if it were to resolve matters
All the best
I have tried listening to see if the turbo is indeed working in limp home mode as suggested but could not hear anything.
I understand that later engines (mines an 05) have the valve mounted vertically and work slightly better. If this is true is it possible to retro fit?
I know that there is no magic wand with enough power to magic this infamous engine into working reasonably reliably, but I would be very grateful for any suggestions on a garage/mechanic who has a good working knowledge and dealt with such issues - I live in SE Kent but would be prepared to travel if it were to resolve matters
All the best
Having thought about the whole EGR valve issue I have seen suggestions on other forums as to blanking the EGR valve off and there have been many replies advising against this. It would appear in many cases this has been a success but no long term tests - so a bit of an unknown.
As I understand the valve recirculates exhaust gases back into the induction system to be re-burnt for environmental/cooling reasons.
I am not sure if a specific gas is extracted to be recirculated such as carbon dioxide or monoxide but suspect it just normal exhaust gases hence the soot and carbon collecting and clogging up the EGR valve.
It is also suggested that this gas is used for cooling purposes in the cylinders and any removal of the EGR valve would be detrimental to this with consequences for the turbo to overheat etc.
Now at the moment I am more concerened with having a functioning engine than reduction of carbon dioxide (rightly or wrongly) but would have concerns removing/blankijng off the EGR valve system totally.
My idea would be to cap the exhaust gas feed to the valve off removing the pipe and provide an air intake with filter to the EGR valve where the exhaust gas would have previously been. The thought behind this is that the ECU gets to operate the EGR valve and it has a supply of cool gas ie air (which must be cooler than the re-circulated exhaust gas) to feed into the induction system. Also there would be no clogging up of the EGR valve with soot and carbon.
Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated and please feel free to tell me if I am talking nonsense.
As I understand the valve recirculates exhaust gases back into the induction system to be re-burnt for environmental/cooling reasons.
I am not sure if a specific gas is extracted to be recirculated such as carbon dioxide or monoxide but suspect it just normal exhaust gases hence the soot and carbon collecting and clogging up the EGR valve.
It is also suggested that this gas is used for cooling purposes in the cylinders and any removal of the EGR valve would be detrimental to this with consequences for the turbo to overheat etc.
Now at the moment I am more concerened with having a functioning engine than reduction of carbon dioxide (rightly or wrongly) but would have concerns removing/blankijng off the EGR valve system totally.
My idea would be to cap the exhaust gas feed to the valve off removing the pipe and provide an air intake with filter to the EGR valve where the exhaust gas would have previously been. The thought behind this is that the ECU gets to operate the EGR valve and it has a supply of cool gas ie air (which must be cooler than the re-circulated exhaust gas) to feed into the induction system. Also there would be no clogging up of the EGR valve with soot and carbon.
Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated and please feel free to tell me if I am talking nonsense.
The EGR (which stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve allows exhaust gasses back into the induction loop in an effort to burn off unburnt fuel. The presence of unburnt fuel is due to diesel engines requiring a 'rich' (overfuelled) mixture to produce their peak torque. This unburnt fuel can damage the catalytic converter, and also contributes to NOx emissions, which need to be very low to pass various European engine standards.
Early diesel engines without sophisticated engine management systems and rigorous MOT emissions standards responded very well to owners blanking off their EGR valves to improve torque and smoothness, although at a marginal fuel consumption/emissions cost.
I'd suggest that blanking the EGR on your engine would cause the car to fail emissions tests come the next MOT, and could very well damage the cat.
The main problem with EGR valves is that due to their nature (circulating hot exhaust gasses) they have a very hard life, and any oil, soot, or general combustion detritus tends to clog them up. However, you've not got many options in this respect; you need one in a modern engine to pass emissions legislation.
Your problems seem to revolve around the oil presence in the engine. There are several places that oil can enter an engine: via the piston rings, via the inlet valve seals and via the compression turbo seals (plastic manifold nonwithstanding; I've no experience with this specific engine).
Personally I'd be looking at the turbo oil seals, as these seem to be a weak point in modern engines. valve stem seals and piston rings will last 150,000 miles plus, unless something is really wrong.
Excess oil in the system will definitely cause the car to 'limp home', as diesel engines can run on oil as their combustion medium. See here for a video of a landrover with busted oil seals running on it's own oil supply...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno
if the engine senses any possibility of this all boost is dropped and the engine limps home.
So, in essence you're looking for a way for oil to get into the intake system. Either turbo seals or this broken inlet manifold mentioned earlier would be my bet.
Early diesel engines without sophisticated engine management systems and rigorous MOT emissions standards responded very well to owners blanking off their EGR valves to improve torque and smoothness, although at a marginal fuel consumption/emissions cost.
I'd suggest that blanking the EGR on your engine would cause the car to fail emissions tests come the next MOT, and could very well damage the cat.
The main problem with EGR valves is that due to their nature (circulating hot exhaust gasses) they have a very hard life, and any oil, soot, or general combustion detritus tends to clog them up. However, you've not got many options in this respect; you need one in a modern engine to pass emissions legislation.
Your problems seem to revolve around the oil presence in the engine. There are several places that oil can enter an engine: via the piston rings, via the inlet valve seals and via the compression turbo seals (plastic manifold nonwithstanding; I've no experience with this specific engine).
Personally I'd be looking at the turbo oil seals, as these seem to be a weak point in modern engines. valve stem seals and piston rings will last 150,000 miles plus, unless something is really wrong.
Excess oil in the system will definitely cause the car to 'limp home', as diesel engines can run on oil as their combustion medium. See here for a video of a landrover with busted oil seals running on it's own oil supply...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zx3qKX_Pno
if the engine senses any possibility of this all boost is dropped and the engine limps home.
So, in essence you're looking for a way for oil to get into the intake system. Either turbo seals or this broken inlet manifold mentioned earlier would be my bet.
Turbo seals/area was my initial thoughts on entry of the oil but Renualt Main Dealer and a Renault specialist advised that from the diagnostic and inspection that faliure of the EGR valve would result in lubricant oil being pulled through the intake system (also documented on Honest John website).
My last post was really with regard to EGR valves that are not effected by oil rather just soot/carbon, system could be easily returned to normal at MOT time.
My last post was really with regard to EGR valves that are not effected by oil rather just soot/carbon, system could be easily returned to normal at MOT time.
I cant really understand how a failed EGR valve could result in oil being pulled into the intake area. I can, however, understand how oil being pulled into the intake area could cause a failed EGR valve. The valve (on all systems i am aware of) connects the exhaust system to the intake system allowing exhaust gasses to be mixed with the intake air. This has what you could call a cooling effect. ultimately it slows combustion in the cylinders which creates a cooler more controlled burn resulting in lower NOx output. If you were to blank off the egr i dont think you would see any issues other than increased nox emissions from the engine. in fact the system itself during normal operation will close the egr valve (high altitude/ low temperature and during full load the valve will be closed).
There may be other issues on this engine (apologies im not very learned with this particuler engine). Some systems will calculate a mass air flow into the engine based upon operating conditions (boost/ load/ temperature etc). In some systems the position of egr comes into play also i.e. more egr = less flow through the MAF sensor. The two flows (calculated and measured) are compared to ensure the MAF sensor is functioning correctly. If your system uses this diagnostic then you could just flag another fault instead.
I am still rather confused about your comments regarding fault codes. On the one hand you seem to suggest that an EGR codes is flagged and on the other a Turbo sensor code. Its obviously very difficult to diagnose a problem over the internet (its hard enough with the vehicle in front of you). But i would be drawn to the conclusion others have and suggest that the oil found within the intake system could be the route cause of the issue. It may be worth buying a can of brake cleaner and giving all the sensors a good clean. MAF, MAP and Boost temp and see if this has at least a temporary effect.Its a cheap and easy way to rule out an issue with oil covered sensor. Secondly it coule be worth just disconnecting the egr electrical connection. This will result in MIL illumination after three successive drive cycles (start up run and key off) but i wouldnt expect it to result in limphome. If this leads to no limphomes then you can be pretty certain that there is an issue with EGR/ Intake air calculation. Its also a free test. Just be sure to let any further garages know you have disconnected it as there will be a code stored to say so and they may take that as the underlying problem and stick a new valve on regardless.
Lastly you mention that this has happened twice in 6 months? Would this not mean that the first garage should be trying to fix this for free? If they think its an EGR valve then under parts warranty? Could be worth a shot?
There may be other issues on this engine (apologies im not very learned with this particuler engine). Some systems will calculate a mass air flow into the engine based upon operating conditions (boost/ load/ temperature etc). In some systems the position of egr comes into play also i.e. more egr = less flow through the MAF sensor. The two flows (calculated and measured) are compared to ensure the MAF sensor is functioning correctly. If your system uses this diagnostic then you could just flag another fault instead.
I am still rather confused about your comments regarding fault codes. On the one hand you seem to suggest that an EGR codes is flagged and on the other a Turbo sensor code. Its obviously very difficult to diagnose a problem over the internet (its hard enough with the vehicle in front of you). But i would be drawn to the conclusion others have and suggest that the oil found within the intake system could be the route cause of the issue. It may be worth buying a can of brake cleaner and giving all the sensors a good clean. MAF, MAP and Boost temp and see if this has at least a temporary effect.Its a cheap and easy way to rule out an issue with oil covered sensor. Secondly it coule be worth just disconnecting the egr electrical connection. This will result in MIL illumination after three successive drive cycles (start up run and key off) but i wouldnt expect it to result in limphome. If this leads to no limphomes then you can be pretty certain that there is an issue with EGR/ Intake air calculation. Its also a free test. Just be sure to let any further garages know you have disconnected it as there will be a code stored to say so and they may take that as the underlying problem and stick a new valve on regardless.
Lastly you mention that this has happened twice in 6 months? Would this not mean that the first garage should be trying to fix this for free? If they think its an EGR valve then under parts warranty? Could be worth a shot?
Previously following my visit to a specialist the Renault main dealer confirmed that a closed (stuck) EGR valve would draw lubricating oil from the engine as it contributed to breathing. This has been documented on quite a few web sites etc. though I do not know how it gets into the induction system as you say.
Got the car back from the garage and the source of oil as I suspected was the turbo, the intercooler was full of oil causing an air restriction as well.
Oh the joys of Renault ownership!
Got the car back from the garage and the source of oil as I suspected was the turbo, the intercooler was full of oil causing an air restriction as well.
Oh the joys of Renault ownership!
Ye gods! I just received the quotation for a new turbo using genuine parts, fell off my chair before the intercooler and air cooler were mentioned.
Do all modern turbo diesel engines suffer from EGR valve proplems?
I was willing to percevier with the Espace but am loosing faith and am thinking of similar replacement. I do not do many miles so could consider a V6 petrol Espace and its thirst but I expect that these come with their own unique faults - any thoughts on reliable alternatives?
Do all modern turbo diesel engines suffer from EGR valve proplems?
I was willing to percevier with the Espace but am loosing faith and am thinking of similar replacement. I do not do many miles so could consider a V6 petrol Espace and its thirst but I expect that these come with their own unique faults - any thoughts on reliable alternatives?
Edited by Doug Shep on Wednesday 13th January 19:01
Hi All,
A quick update - the garage are doing sterling work and it would appear following a strip down that it was not the turbo etc.
Oil leak over the engine was a poorly secured pipe - sorted however they are rapidly running ut of ideas how the oil is getting in the system and there is a problem with back pressure from the turbo I believe.
The inlet manifold has been replaced, the engine compression tested (fine) and the turbo drain being checked again (however this was thought to be unlikely).
I suggested that could some kind of blockage or restriction in the exhaust or Cat is this feasible?
A quick update - the garage are doing sterling work and it would appear following a strip down that it was not the turbo etc.
Oil leak over the engine was a poorly secured pipe - sorted however they are rapidly running ut of ideas how the oil is getting in the system and there is a problem with back pressure from the turbo I believe.
The inlet manifold has been replaced, the engine compression tested (fine) and the turbo drain being checked again (however this was thought to be unlikely).
I suggested that could some kind of blockage or restriction in the exhaust or Cat is this feasible?
It may be that no more is getting in, but that there's loads already there in the intercooler etc.
Our returned from the dealer with its new alternator, drive belt and drive belt tensioner, as well as the new o/s/r brake caliper, and promptly developed another problem.
Symptoms were complete and utter lack of power below 2k rpm when stone cold, improving slightly when warmer: when cold it wouldn't pull from tickover in 1st gear.
Bags of power over 2k rpm, though.
Check injection warning came and went.
Dealer has diagnosed EGR valve coked-up beyond economic recovery: it was last removed and supposedly cleaned 15k miles ago.
The real problem with these engines is 18k service intervals; henceforth, if we keep it, ours will get oil, filter and EGR valve clean up at 6k miles.
Our returned from the dealer with its new alternator, drive belt and drive belt tensioner, as well as the new o/s/r brake caliper, and promptly developed another problem.
Symptoms were complete and utter lack of power below 2k rpm when stone cold, improving slightly when warmer: when cold it wouldn't pull from tickover in 1st gear.
Bags of power over 2k rpm, though.
Check injection warning came and went.
Dealer has diagnosed EGR valve coked-up beyond economic recovery: it was last removed and supposedly cleaned 15k miles ago.
The real problem with these engines is 18k service intervals; henceforth, if we keep it, ours will get oil, filter and EGR valve clean up at 6k miles.
Gassing Station | French Bred | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff