Poor, skint person contemplating a Turbo R....

[Byteme]

graemel said:

I think that is a pretty unfair post Steve and I feel an apology to Balmoral would not go amiss.
Hatty is a very good example. But she is not concours nor will she ever be concours. I would not want concours. But she will always be very well looked after.
David the important thing is that you go into Turbo R ownership with your eyes wide open. Personally I would suggest you buy the best you can afford and stay away from a car with problems. Ok minor problems are not so much of an issue but it all adds up very quickly.
Having bought Hatty back in November my first mission was to top to tail the car.
I've probably forgotten some stuff but the main items were new wheel bearings and skim the brake discs on all four corners. Replace the fluid lines from the brake reservoir. Gearbox oil and filter. Change the diff oil. Engine oil and filter and new air filter. Thoroughly clean the underside and re waxoyl. Grease everything that should be greased. Replace drivers side carpet. Fit flying B. Fit transient boost kit. Ok that was not a necessity but boy does it liven things up a bit That lot was £3K.
Next mission is a fresh set of tyres. Will most likely go with the Avons as I can get them at a good price.
Replace fuel pump and fuel pipe to tank.
Replace batteries in the seat ecu's.
Then attend to some corrosion around the wheel arches.
So I reckon somewhere around £6K in less than a year of ownership and that is on a car that is a very good example. That has been well maintained and cherished.
Hopefully our second year should be cheap motoring but then on a 24 year old car you have to expect the unexpected.
But believe you me it is worth every single penny from the enjoyment I get from driving it. It is my number one car of all time and I have owned a lot of cars over the years.

Graemel, I see no reason to apologise. Balmoral's extravagant expenditure, I'm sure, makes him feel rather special allowing him to distance himself from the plebs he no doubt feels shouldn't be allowed near the same vehicle type he drives.

Let's take the original post at face value, a situation perhaps similar to a relative of mine I am currently helping to find a PMC. He regularly drives my own car and while I have actively encouraged him to continue now wants to have his own. I understand his feeling completely because you can never enjoy being a proud owner unless a car is actually your own. I could elaborate ad nauseam but any true enthusiast will know the reasons why.

Putting £4000/annum into a car that is perhaps only worth two or three times that makes no sense unless you have first used that budget to constantly upgrade to the best, lowest mileage, highest spec, newest example of it its kind. £4k each year buys you the best available within three/four years. Ongoing costs from there will inevitably catch up however that kind of budget should only be necessary if you are constantly improving the vehicle to make it like new. Most current owners, like the original poster I suspect, have no intention of doing this and would be content keeping their vehicle usable and roadworthy for use on high days, holidays and car shows.

Graemel, you cite your car as an example in support of Balmoral's assertion however you appear to be correcting neglect present at purchase, after all you do say "my first mission was to top to tail the car." (Waxoyl, really?). matt5791 states his car was "in need of TLC" when he bought his car. How much of this was factored into/reduced from your purchase prices and how much is actually essential right now? Very little, right? Graemel, your "Next mission is a fresh set of tyres" an item I would never take a chance with and one of the first replacements I made on my latest car however that did not stop the previous owner from enjoying the car for the previous four years at no cost. Cars that have been neglected can be expensive to bring back to specification but in no way does that guarantee that they cannot be enjoyed without all of this being done.

While it would not be my preferred option you could, with some luck, buy a very cheap car and enjoy several years of incomparable motoring for very little or no outlay other than the normal fixed costs. After all, they are in no way fragile and were made to be used.

Graemel, you mention corrosion but once again this is something that is unlikely to cause much concern to a short term user who could choose to ignore it or have cosmetic repairs carried out. As you would appear to have some commitment toward you car I would suggest you take a longer term view and concentrate on having all of the required work carried out on one or two panels at a time instead of having less comprehensive repairs on any more. These cars often had welded part panel replacements while in manufacturer's warranty and the passage of time takes its inevitable consequences.

An inflation increasing £4k/annum budget makes no sense for a car that will never be worth anything despite the fact that the only viable equivalent model is the latest Brooklands. Should this expenditure ever become necessary then 95% of these vehicles will be scrapped overnight.

[deeen]

I looked at 4 before I bought the 5th one (sorry no Brooklands). 3 were not running correctly on 8 cylinders (including the 1 Turbo I looked at). 2 the suspension/brake mineral oil pressure lights did not go out correctly.

I spent just under £300 to change a leaking high pressure pipe (mainly labour), then quoted £1750 to get it through an MOT (mainly brakes, maybe through lack of regular use before I bought it). I believe the cheapest "oil change" services start at around £250.

On this basis, I think you could run one on around £2000 - £2500 p.a., if you didn't care what it looked like. The biggest killer on mine was going to be the rust, more than the value of the car to fix properly.

ETA answer to your specific question; I think the engines are reliable if serviced regularly. However the "details" on other cars become major bills on these, e.g. cruise not working? That will be £1000 please sir! Air con not cold? £1500 please sir, and so on. The Citroen hydraulics are an added complexity that causes added bills 25 years on, and the rust cannot be ignored - rust around the screens causes leaks into the cabin which causes other issues, for example.

Edited by deeen on Saturday 17th May 00:50

[Byteme]

Bluebottle911 said:

Ignorant twit. Also rude. I suggest you go back to playing with your Dinky toys and leave this to grown ups. Return here when you have learned some manners.

Dear boy, if you are suggesting "ignorant" as in uninformed then you are clearly incorrect. If however you wish to learn then I suggest you pick your toys up from the floor and stand on the naughty step while you consider what some may consider to be an unhelpful contribution to this discussion.

[Byteme]

deeen said:

I looked at 4 before I bought the 5th one (sorry no Brooklands). 3 were not running correctly on 8 cylinders (including the 1 Turbo I looked at). 2 the suspension/brake mineral oil pressure lights did not go out correctly.

I spent just under £300 to change a leaking high pressure pipe (mainly labour), then quoted £1750 to get it through an MOT (mainly brakes, maybe through lack of regular use before I bought it). I believe the cheapest "oil change" services start at around £250.

On this basis, I think you could run one on around £2000 - £2500 p.a., if you didn't care what it looked like. The biggest killer on mine was going to be the rust, more than the value of the car to fix properly.

ETA answer to your specific question; I think the engines are reliable if serviced regularly. However the "details" on other cars become major bills on these, e.g. cruise not working? That will be £1000 please sir! Air con not cold? £1500 please sir, and so on. The Citroen hydraulics are an added complexity that causes added bills 25 years on, and the rust cannot be ignored - rust around the screens causes leaks into the cabin which causes other issues, for example.

Edited by deeen on Saturday 17th May 00:50

Rust issues will always plague these cars which often showed external corrosion within two years from registration. That said the galvanised underbody is pretty much immune so most problems will rarely be more than cosmetic.

If a repairer is asking for the sums you suggest then you need to find someone else who realises that these cars have low value and that numerous used parts are available. In terms of their relative cost try researching the prices of parts for any car built in the last three years and be amazed. A VW Golf ACU compressor costs more than £800 wheras a reconditioned Harrison for an early BTR is about half of that.

You can believe an oil change service starts at £250 or buy the oil and filter and get your local branch of Halfords to change it. I have to admit that I would probably draw the line there but there is little that could go wrong with such a simple task.

Edited by Byteme on Saturday 17th May 01:09

Edited by Byteme on Saturday 17th May 01:11

[Byteme]

V8 FOU said:

Seized / broken bolts, correcting bodges done by others, age related problems. all add up in hours. Plus the "book" times are a guide only. Sometimes they can be beaten, but most times they are too short.

After 40+ years running my w/shop I have learned to keep the customer informed all the way through a job. Not that many others do - especially franchised dealers.

Find a good independent and make him your New Best Friend.

Labour times have been revised constantly on these vehicles and I recall earning very good bonuses on early cars where 8.5 hours was allocated to a service that could be completed, in full, in about one hour. These times were reduced but I would take issue with being charged more than the standard unless there is a very good reason.

Book times relate to new vehicles where no additional problems are encountered however even then problems sometimes occur so as soon as the manufacturer's warranty expires than it is perfectly reasonable that the only person who should pick up any additional cost is the owner.

The "best friend" concept is a great guide, even with a new vehicle in warranty. With a vehicle like these, just how many good repairers can you upset before you have nowhere to turn and have to roll up you own shirt sleeves?

[Art0ir]

LeonardinLA said:

I purchased the car for only $17,000, so the $5K a year in expenses would translate into a lease of a low end Merc or Lexus. That's how I justify owning the Bentley.

Top man maths

[mark387mw]

Xtriple129 said:

I really want a red Turbo R with efi, abs, 4 speed ( I like the centre gear change!) and a light coloured interior. I want low miles and great history and I want pretty much immaculate. The car will be a 'keeper' so a hobby as much as a vehicle. As soon as I get somewhere to live with a driveway/garage then I can maintain at my leasure. I have always done quite a bit of work on my cars, but with advancing spinal problems, the amount I can do in one go is limited so a second car to provide actual transport will be required!

Here you go... (I probably will on my return to the UK)
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/car-advert/ben...
Looks to have a good history as well.

[Byteme]

Well this is what Balmorals average expenditure over the last four years could have bought him. Am I the only one seeing this?

[mark387mw]

Byteme said:

Well this is what Balmorals average expenditure over the last four years could have bought him. Am I the only one seeing this?

I think you are saying, spend the 4 years worth of £4k p.a. maintenance, and you can get a really good car at £15,995 (or less with haggling).
It'll have nothing needing doing right now and, if bought right, will have negligible outlay over the next four years and you won't get mugged.

[Byteme]

mark387mw said:

I think you are saying, spend the 4 years worth of £4k p.a. maintenance, and you can get a really good car at £15,995 (or less with haggling).
It'll have nothing needing doing right now and, if bought right, will have negligible outlay over the next four years and you won't get mugged.

The one thing you can always be assured of is that there will always be ongoing work however any decent car will not need that kind of expenditure year on year.

[mark387mw]

There is this red car (but has column change) at half the purchase price that has had bills for "£25,000..........and £3,000 of this quite recently".

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/car-advert/ben...

I think the old adage of spend the most you can afford on the best condition car applies.

If you only want to pay £7,990 you can save the difference towards upkeep etc. but, crystal ball time, which one will be cheaper in the long run??
A dilemma the OP is clearly asking about, of which I cannot help...

Edited by mark387mw on Saturday 17th May 03:08

[Balmoral]

Byteme said:

Balmoral's extravagant expenditure, I'm sure, makes him feel rather special allowing him to distance himself from the plebs he no doubt feels shouldn't be allowed near the same vehicle type he drives.

Need any more rope there?

[matt5791]

Byteme said:

Graemel, you cite your car as an example in support of Balmoral's assertion however you appear to be correcting neglect present at purchase, after all you do say "my first mission was to top to tail the car." (Waxoyl, really?). matt5791 states his car was "in need of TLC" when he bought his car. How much of this was factored into/reduced from your purchase prices and how much is actually essential right now? Very little, right?

I have been correcting neglect - but the price did reflect it. There are people asking £10K more for similar cars with similar mileages, or often more.

Once neglect it corrected, then I would expect general maintenance to be very reasonable - I find the parts to be pretty reasonably priced and have found an experienced garage who are competitive (Tanworth Garage south of Birmingham, if anyone is interested)

It's been amazing how easy to correct some of the issues have been though - The Auto ride was malfunctioning, "Auto Ride" displayed in the dot matrix on the dash. I was concerned about this. Turned out the ECU was unplugged. I'm guessing someone was experimenting and possibly trying to investigate the low back end, and left it unplugged - but the low ride height was sorted with an adjustment to the valve.

It just depends on how "perfect" you want the car to be - if the aim is to bring it to virtually showroom condition, then this is going to cost a lot. But if you just want a solid useable car, then I would say the running costs should be very reasonable indeed.

All in all, they seem really very robust cars. I like the way the turbo is really accessible - but failure is very rare! How ironic - turbos are usually a weak link, and the one car where it's easy to get to, is the one where it rarely needs attention.

[Bluebottle911]

mark387mw said:

I think the old adage of spend the most you can afford on the best condition car applies.

Absolutely.

mark387mw said:

If you only want to pay £7,990 you can save the difference towards upkeep etc. but, crystal ball time, which one will be cheaper in the long run??

Unless you are very lucky, or can undertake all your own maintenance / repair, the answer is obvious.

But, however good a car you buy, it will be at least almost 20 years old, with several tens of thousand miles under its belt. Bentleys are not immune from the fundamental facts that as cars get older and their mileage increases, things wear out / deteriorate and need replacement / repair. If you want to have a car that you can enjoy because it drives as it should and you have kept it in a condition commensurate with the quality of the original materials and workmanship of a Bentley, then you will have to have it regularly serviced by a knowledeable specialist and you will also find that good quality replacement parts don't come cheap (this may be a £10-15K car now, but when new it cost ten times that - parts are priced accordingly).

If you are content for your car just to sit in the garage except for the annual trip to the MoT centre, or you don't mind smoking around in a tatty old wreck in a few years' time, or you have the necessary skills and equipment to maintain a car of this nature yourself, then I dare say that you can run a Bentley on a shoestring, as Byteme appears to suggest. If you want to use and enjoy your car for a number of years and maintain it to a good standard, then you will have to do as Balmoral (and several other posters on this forum) has done with his: take it to a reputable specialist (PMC is one of the best in the business) and be prepared to budget £3K to £4K per annum.

This may not appear to make sense in relation to the capital value of the car, but if that is what makes you tick, then this is not the right car to buy.

[graemel]

Xtriple129 said:

I am aware that these things cost several small fortunes to run properly, just not what precisely it is that needs doing. Are the engines (I imagine that head gasket failure is a major drama!) reliable? I know the old GM 400 'box was pretty strong but what about the later 4 speed?

I believe both gearboxes are pretty bullet proof. The change to non asbestos head gaskets did cause head gasket failures. As long as they have been changed at some point, mine in 1997 you should be fine

Xtriple129 said:

I'm really sure I'm going to get one, but unsure as to what to spend! Do I buy cheap and then spend money (lots of) on making it 'right' or, spend lots on the initial purchase and hope that's it a food 'un?

To get a good one I think you need to spend £12 to £14K. But get a thorough pre purchase inspection done by someone who knows what they are looking at before you buy the car. One of the chaps who looks after my car has two customers that did not listen to his advice. One went out and bought a 1989 Turbo R for £3K. He has spent £9K on it so far and it is still not a patch on Hatty.

[Bluebottle911]

Byteme said:

Graemel, I see no reason to apologise. Balmoral's extravagant expenditure, I'm sure, makes him feel rather special allowing him to distance himself from the plebs he no doubt feels shouldn't be allowed near the same vehicle type he drives.

Sorry, I was clearly wrong: I should have said VERY rude and EXTREMELY ignorant.

Warren takes his car to one of the best and most knowledgeable specialists in business and has his car maintained to a standard which enables him to enjoy his car and be proud of the way he looks after it. He has done so over an extended period and is therefore able to respond from an informed position to the OP's request for information. In the spirit of this forum, he has shared the benefit of his experience in good faith, to help another forum member. Your original peremptory dismissal of his very constructive post was unnecessarily rude and your follow up was gratuitously insulting.

[plasticpig]

Byteme said:

Graemel, I see no reason to apologise. Balmoral's extravagant expenditure, I'm sure, makes him feel rather special allowing him to distance himself from the plebs he no doubt feels shouldn't be allowed near the same vehicle type he drives.

Having known Balmoral for a number of years I can safely say you couldn't be any further from the truth.

Byteme said:

£4000/annum into a car that is perhaps only worth two or three times that makes no sense unless you have first used that budget to constantly upgrade to the best, lowest mileage, highest spec, newest example of it its kind. £4k each year buys you the best available within three/four years. Ongoing costs from there will inevitably catch up however that kind of budget should only be necessary if you are constantly improving the vehicle to make it like new. Most current owners, like the original poster I suspect, have no intention of doing this and would be content keeping their vehicle usable and roadworthy for use on high days, holidays and car shows.

From a different perspective these cars are at the bottom of the depreciation curve. It will cost far more than £4K a year in depreciation if you went out and bought a brand new Bentley.

[Xtriple129]

Thanks again guys. Of the two cars linked, I like the expensive ones mileage and colour, history etc, but hate the wood.

The second car is more my spec, but I don't like the mileage! Hard to please? Me?

[deeen]

Byteme said:

Rust issues will always plague these cars which often showed external corrosion within two years from registration. That said the galvanised underbody is pretty much immune so most problems will rarely be more than cosmetic.

If a repairer is asking for the sums you suggest then you need to find someone else who realises that these cars have low value and that numerous used parts are available. In terms of their relative cost try researching the prices of parts for any car built in the last three years and be amazed. A VW Golf ACU compressor costs more than £800 wheras a reconditioned Harrison for an early BTR is about half of that.

You can believe an oil change service starts at £250 or buy the oil and filter and get your local branch of Halfords to change it. I have to admit that I would probably draw the line there but there is little that could go wrong with such a simple task.

Just trying to help the OP with my real world experience, as I got the feeling he is looking for a "keeper", not the "run it into the ground" option.

Corrosion - my car had already had sills and jacking points welded. No idea if sills are structural, but jacking points are an MOT check.

"Oil change service" does not mean just changing the oil, I meant the cheapest scheduled service using the full RR checklist.

"Numerous used parts..." I looked into this for my cruise control. How would I know the used unit was working? And if it is, but they are a known weak point, how long before it fails again? How many times should I replace it before it becomes a false economy? In the end, I just drove it without cruise.

The one thing I agree with Byteme about is there seems to be a bit of a cartel on labour prices amongst specialists; they seem to start at £70 per hour? So it would make a big difference if you were willing and able to get underneath and fight the seized / snapped / rusted bolts yourself.

Back to the OP, I believe gearboxes are usually OK, but other driveline items can fail (props, diffs, driveshafts) and again I am lead to believe these are larger bills than normal cars. you can get an injection model with column change, however I believe small improvements most years meant later cars were better, anyway.

So, a few different views here about how to run these cars for the OP to consider? Balmoral keeping his in good condition, £4000 p.a., me keeping it sheddy and accepting driving it with minor faults, £2000 - £2500 p.a, Byteme care to list the actual running costs for yours here?

Edited by deeen on Saturday 17th May 11:38

[mark387mw]

Xtriple129 said:

Thanks again guys. Of the two cars linked, I like the expensive ones mileage and colour, history etc, but hate the wood.

The second car is more my spec, but I don't like the mileage! Hard to please? Me?

Meet you in the middle with this find
http://www.click-cars.co.uk/view.asp?id=10020&...