Phantom Ownership One Month On
Discussion
I think people with wrecked BMW engines due to Nikasil or crumbled swirl flap issues that are issued the standard 'on yer bike' BMW response may disagree mate. Porsche seem far worse though and probably swear at you before they say 'on yer bike' re the bore scoring and bearing and seal failures that affect so many. Aston wriggle hard re the bodywork warranty when it bubbles up... Hang on there is a pattern forming!
Ken, thanks for your post and don't get me going about Porsche and how Audio/VW engines.... My friend almost started a Class Action, with the VW Group finally giving in and buying him a new engine after denials, paltry offers, etc. His lawyer did a great job, though sad the VW Group waited **just until before papers were filed in court** to THEN settle out of court for the full asking amount. Guess the VW Group doesn't want to go to court to then have a precedence set for others.
I've been debating starting a Class Action lawsuit against Bentley about their known defects that need engine out (false air that is a known defect after less than 30k miles with a $100 hose they charge you $300 for, needs engine out to put right).
Have been letting people know to check out the new Jags. So far have heard many good things and their warranty plus including servicing is a nice way to treat customers. Too bad even the Bentley has not offered proper servicing with the car and to stand by their products when known issues come about. Bentley did not even offer the slightest of help (shame shame). So it seems to make sense why the Bentley has a massive price depreciation.
Interesting about how the Germans are treating others nowadays. Sad really, yet am sure they're losing customers and others online seem to be warning others as you're doing here.
I've been debating starting a Class Action lawsuit against Bentley about their known defects that need engine out (false air that is a known defect after less than 30k miles with a $100 hose they charge you $300 for, needs engine out to put right).
Have been letting people know to check out the new Jags. So far have heard many good things and their warranty plus including servicing is a nice way to treat customers. Too bad even the Bentley has not offered proper servicing with the car and to stand by their products when known issues come about. Bentley did not even offer the slightest of help (shame shame). So it seems to make sense why the Bentley has a massive price depreciation.
Interesting about how the Germans are treating others nowadays. Sad really, yet am sure they're losing customers and others online seem to be warning others as you're doing here.
ChasW said:
BMW bought a brand name whereas VW got the factory and the workers as well as the Bentley name.
Absolutely - but, Bentley Motors Limited today is the same company, Rolls Royce Motor & Bentley Motor Cars Limited, with a change of ownership and a name change in 2002. And it traces it's bloodline directly back.https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/0099289...
in other words it's the same original business, it just got new owners.
Whereas BMW's Rolls Royce is a new creation, from scratch, with an old brand applied to it which they bought for £40M, because they could afford to (and because, commercially, it made sense). So, in my view, it's a fake or, at best, a 'pastiche'.
I'm not saying I don't think it's impressive thing, to create a whole factory and car in such a short time.
Edited by matt5791 on Tuesday 8th December 07:08
enjoythemusic said:
Interesting about how the Germans are treating others nowadays. Sad really, yet am sure they're losing customers and others online seem to be warning others as you're doing here.
Others may want to chip in here who have personal experience, but both my father and grandfather were RR customers and customer service was very different before the Germans got involved - because you almost felt the primary aim of the company back then was to engineer cars that were the best - making money was almost secondary...Just stumbled across this thread and it's been a great read. Thanks for sharing your experiences. It's a real eye opener. I know that it's a limited series product, but I really am surprised at the issues you have had. With the amount of testing that goes into cars nowadays, I really wouldn't expect so many to appear. I'm also amazed at the apparent lack of customer service you've experienced too. You've done very well to keep your cool.
And more importantly, did you manage to make your way through that hamper?
dazzalse said:
The car was delivered back to me Friday, so nearly 5 weeks off the road. They have also sent me a rather large F & M Hamper. It's gone straight into the garage as the weather has been terrible and the lanes are thick mud so we've been using our 4x4. My wife will be using it this weekend as she is going shopping in London and its easier to get around with a driver so no need to worry about parking, I will then be able to report back if its been fixed, but they have given me assurances that they replaced every possible item that caused the problem, so we are looking forward to some trouble free motoring.....
So now it's been a couple of months since your last post. Have the problems finally been banished, or are there still RR gremlins running around inside your Phantom?And more importantly, did you manage to make your way through that hamper?
Vroom101 said:
Just stumbled across this thread and it's been a great read. Thanks for sharing your experiences. It's a real eye opener. I know that it's a limited series product, but I really am surprised at the issues you have had. With the amount of testing that goes into cars nowadays, I really wouldn't expect so many to appear. I'm also amazed at the apparent lack of customer service you've experienced too. You've done very well to keep your cool.
And more importantly, did you manage to make your way through that hamper?
In all honesty its not moved out of the garage since they delivered it back to me at the end of November, we are also about to go away for 6 weeks holiday so it will not be used until early May. Its just been sat in the garage on battery charger, I'd really forgotten how long its not been used for, so i must go over and start it up !dazzalse said:
The car was delivered back to me Friday, so nearly 5 weeks off the road. They have also sent me a rather large F & M Hamper. It's gone straight into the garage as the weather has been terrible and the lanes are thick mud so we've been using our 4x4. My wife will be using it this weekend as she is going shopping in London and its easier to get around with a driver so no need to worry about parking, I will then be able to report back if its been fixed, but they have given me assurances that they replaced every possible item that caused the problem, so we are looking forward to some trouble free motoring.....
So now it's been a couple of months since your last post. Have the problems finally been banished, or are there still RR gremlins running around inside your Phantom?And more importantly, did you manage to make your way through that hamper?
Krikkit said:
Shocking that such a supposedly high-quality car can be such a lemon.
Also interesting that they haven't cooked up a factory telemetry stream yet, seems very 20th century to have to send a man to read the codes from the system to know the faults.
Indeed! http://www.rolls-royce.com/about/our-technology/en...Also interesting that they haven't cooked up a factory telemetry stream yet, seems very 20th century to have to send a man to read the codes from the system to know the faults.
I suspect for the car industry that this is certainly possible but might keep lucrative drivers away from dealerships where they can be upsold any amount of stuff during a visit, including a new car!
rog007 said:
Krikkit said:
Shocking that such a supposedly high-quality car can be such a lemon.
Also interesting that they haven't cooked up a factory telemetry stream yet, seems very 20th century to have to send a man to read the codes from the system to know the faults.
Indeed! http://www.rolls-royce.com/about/our-technology/en...Also interesting that they haven't cooked up a factory telemetry stream yet, seems very 20th century to have to send a man to read the codes from the system to know the faults.
I suspect for the car industry that this is certainly possible but might keep lucrative drivers away from dealerships where they can be upsold any amount of stuff during a visit, including a new car!
Krikkit said:
Shocking that such a supposedly high-quality car can be such a lemon.
Also interesting that they haven't cooked up a factory telemetry stream yet, seems very 20th century to have to send a man to read the codes from the system to know the faults.
This is a technology that's been used for over twenty years but just what do you think, at best, it will supply you with? The codes are just a starting point and while they can be quite specific, in general, before any component is replaced a whole series of other tests must be carried out manually. Also interesting that they haven't cooked up a factory telemetry stream yet, seems very 20th century to have to send a man to read the codes from the system to know the faults.
Cars, for a very long time, have been so complex that manufacturers no longer understand how they work. Prior to 1987 you could call Crewe(I know this is s Rolls-Royce)and request technical help. The chances are you'd be put through to the engineer that designed a particular system, most of which functioned completely independently of each other. Post '87 they started to buy in systems from outside manufacturers and the ability to obtain assistance reduced year on year.
The Phantom is of incredibly high quality in many aspects but any car built in such limited numbers from a hotch-potch of complex systems designed primarily for other applications is a source of weakness. They may well be 100% reliable in a mainstream vehicle but combined in a different application may interact in ways never intended generating fault codes and actual faults that were never be foreseen. This happens in mass produced cars but when it does failures fall into patterns and this helps to find a solution. When cars are built in limited numbers are incorporate many slight variations many failures are unique.
In real terms the Phantom offers remarkable value for money and practicality compared to its predecessors however it's still an expensive car. In my view that doesn't mean you should automatically expect it to be free of problems but it should afford you exceptional levels of service if anything goes wrong.
Extended periods off the road is a characteristic of all exclusive cars in my experience. Technical problems aside just obtaining replacement parts can be a nightmare.
Precisely because they have so few cars, it would make for interesting analysis to be able to have all the codes (major and minor) sent back for analysis. That would allow in-depth testing of systems which are throwing more faults, helping with refinement of the myriad systems which they have to try and marry together.
That, and it would help them on the occasions where they have to send a man out to try and mend it - if they already know the module and fault code before he attends, he could have a pre-suggested list of items to check based on the fault codes straight from the factory to a PDA/tablet etc.
You could even go a step further and have the phone operator clear the fault codes to see if they recur within a few minutes of journey time again, in case it's an intermittent issue it would avoid being stuck while waiting for the tech to come to you.
Once you have something like that in place the rewards are surprising.
That, and it would help them on the occasions where they have to send a man out to try and mend it - if they already know the module and fault code before he attends, he could have a pre-suggested list of items to check based on the fault codes straight from the factory to a PDA/tablet etc.
You could even go a step further and have the phone operator clear the fault codes to see if they recur within a few minutes of journey time again, in case it's an intermittent issue it would avoid being stuck while waiting for the tech to come to you.
Once you have something like that in place the rewards are surprising.
Krikkit said:
Precisely because they have so few cars, it would make for interesting analysis to be able to have all the codes (major and minor) sent back for analysis. That would allow in-depth testing of systems which are throwing more faults, helping with refinement of the myriad systems which they have to try and marry together.
That, and it would help them on the occasions where they have to send a man out to try and mend it - if they already know the module and fault code before he attends, he could have a pre-suggested list of items to check based on the fault codes straight from the factory to a PDA/tablet etc.
You could even go a step further and have the phone operator clear the fault codes to see if they recur within a few minutes of journey time again, in case it's an intermittent issue it would avoid being stuck while waiting for the tech to come to you.
Once you have something like that in place the rewards are surprising.
This may have gone over your head but this, once again, is twenty year old technology. Prior to "tablets" engineers had access to pens and paper. If your point is that the people who work in this field are stupid and could benefit from your fantasies you're mistaken. You may well believe that technology didn't exist before you were born but more than fifty years ago engineers were designing systems to put men on the moon. When your expertise compares to them you may have something to contribute. You may have a degree in media studies but I was working on vehicles in the 90s that had workshop manuals that extended to 6000 pages. YES six thousand!That, and it would help them on the occasions where they have to send a man out to try and mend it - if they already know the module and fault code before he attends, he could have a pre-suggested list of items to check based on the fault codes straight from the factory to a PDA/tablet etc.
You could even go a step further and have the phone operator clear the fault codes to see if they recur within a few minutes of journey time again, in case it's an intermittent issue it would avoid being stuck while waiting for the tech to come to you.
Once you have something like that in place the rewards are surprising.
Have you any idea what triggers a DTC? Even the best technician and factory support engineer will give you the same answer in that they don't have a clue. DTC triggers and warning lights/messages are buried in lines of inaccessible software code and those writing it have no more idea of what the effect will be than than those who experience its effects and later to try to correct faults. Systems monitor data continuously in one of the harshest environments imaginable and pick up spurious faults all the time. These are filtered and code refined to (largely) ignore them. Many software updates don't cure owner's complaints of warning lights, the ECU's are just taught to ignore them. I can give numerous examples where a DTC and the related fault finding process identifies a firm conclusion but the real failure is elsewhere.
Mercedes pioneered car air suspension and complex hydraulic systems on the W100/Pullman cars in the 1960s. They all came with kits to block up the suspension and blank off oil leaks. These were mechanical solutions that could be foreseen and often (all too often) failed in service. IN SERVICE is the key issue and things often happen that could never be predicted during initial tests.
Edited by Byteme on Sunday 24th April 04:03
allister said:
Is it the end of the road for the Phantom dazzalse?? - My close monitoring of the high end, motor car market tells me it might be? (unless I'm completely wrong).
You would have known by the Mulsanne thread that my new Bentley has arrived! The Phantom has gone but will be shortly replaced by a new RR Dawn, there was a huge warranty bill on the Phantom just before Xmas and the deal with the Mulsanne was too tempting, our worry was keeping the Phantom longterm because of the warranty issues that its had, although its been great since xmas without fault. But I will take a new Phantom as soon as they get launched, and keep the Bentley more as everyday it was such astonishing value.Edited by allister on Wednesday 8th June 18:07
dazzalse said:
You would have known by the Mulsanne thread that my new Bentley has arrived! The Phantom has gone but will be shortly replaced by a new RR Dawn, there was a huge warranty bill on the Phantom just before Xmas and the deal with the Mulsanne was too tempting, our worry was keeping the Phantom longterm because of the warranty issues that its had, although its been great since xmas without fault. But I will take a new Phantom as soon as they get launched, and keep the Bentley more as everyday it was such astonishing value.
Sounds like a wise move, I know you've had your ups and downs with the Phantom.... So how are you finding that beautiful new car, that I so very nearly bought??Any notes to compare??? Mine has been back to the garage a couple of times so far, with only very minor faults (teething problems), I do find it sometimes a little jerky / clunky on gear changes at very low speeds in slow moving traffic, have you experienced this??
Other than that, I'm loving it......
Edited by allister on Thursday 9th June 00:16
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