1998 Continental R - one year on - Running costs
Discussion
Hello there, I was very pleased to come across this thread as I have just purchased a 1997 Azure. Whilst delighted to own such an amazing vehicle, I have been worrying myself over running costs. I am just about to book it into to Phantom Motors (who I know of old - but was pleased to see the endorsements here) for a service and full checkover. Any comments on issues relating to the Azure specifically would be appreciated. Also the car is in Wildberry with a matching interior, but one aspect that I don't care for is the steering wheel which has a magnolia coloured centre with a purple leather rim. The all black steering wheels look much better to me. If I could obtain a replacement wheel is it easy to change them over (perhaps retaining the original wheel should a future owner wish to put the car back to original spec) or does the whole airbag issue make life a nightmare? Any thoughts gratefully received! Cheers
Hi, you have bought a marvellous car - congratulations. Phantom Motors are first class people and very good in so far as they specialise in this era of Bentley. My only concern is their ability to scare the pants off anyone who has bought a car without them having checked it over themselves. The resultant 'health check' can be the most eye watering experience imaginable. While this is , of course, relative to budget, I cannot bring myself to indulge in these labour rates unless the job is 'specialist' work.
I recommend you ask for an end to end check up and quote and then decide for yourself. However, if you need discs skimmed ( and this will only be if they are normally worn rather than badly scored ) let me know and I can sssist as per this thread.
Keep us posted how you get along. I am finding the running costs very minimal between normal servicing, although I am keeping a close eye on the hydraulic suspension and the time it takes to come up to pressure as it is not work, that I would ever contemplate taking on myslef.
I recommend you ask for an end to end check up and quote and then decide for yourself. However, if you need discs skimmed ( and this will only be if they are normally worn rather than badly scored ) let me know and I can sssist as per this thread.
Keep us posted how you get along. I am finding the running costs very minimal between normal servicing, although I am keeping a close eye on the hydraulic suspension and the time it takes to come up to pressure as it is not work, that I would ever contemplate taking on myslef.
I know what you mean about the steering wheel, I also dislike that style design. I love to keep cars very original, but that is one aspect even I would change!
Easy job to switch it, but you have to make sure the airbag can't go off accidentally so I would recommend either getting the workshop manual (which are freely available from the likes of Flying Spares) which explains how to do it, or use a garage. I cant imagine it should be more than an hour's labour.
Potentially, you can buy a new wheel - the parts manager at Bentley Birmingham recently told me he had supplied one for a Continental R....It may be worth giving him a call, his name is Keith - he has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the cars and parts for Crew built Bentley and Rolls. Very interesting chap to speak to.
I would also second what Contimaz is saying - an end to end check up from the likes of a well known specialist will tell you what is wrong with the car, and will (probably) be an horrendous list of expensive work. There are people who will just say, thanks very much, sort it out and give me the bill. Sometimes it's because they can afford this, but sometimes it's because they feel embarrassed into instructing the work. But, if budget is an issue, you need to stand firm and carefully pick and choose what you do to these cars over time and who does the work. Treat it like a rolling project. Select a good specialist with the specialist diagnostics and test equipment for specialised work (eg. electrical faults with the climate control, or the central locking, or issues with the hydraulic systems) but use a good reputable regular garage to do something like, changing the front ball joints or replacing the front springs etc. You just have to be careful.
Easy job to switch it, but you have to make sure the airbag can't go off accidentally so I would recommend either getting the workshop manual (which are freely available from the likes of Flying Spares) which explains how to do it, or use a garage. I cant imagine it should be more than an hour's labour.
Potentially, you can buy a new wheel - the parts manager at Bentley Birmingham recently told me he had supplied one for a Continental R....It may be worth giving him a call, his name is Keith - he has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the cars and parts for Crew built Bentley and Rolls. Very interesting chap to speak to.
I would also second what Contimaz is saying - an end to end check up from the likes of a well known specialist will tell you what is wrong with the car, and will (probably) be an horrendous list of expensive work. There are people who will just say, thanks very much, sort it out and give me the bill. Sometimes it's because they can afford this, but sometimes it's because they feel embarrassed into instructing the work. But, if budget is an issue, you need to stand firm and carefully pick and choose what you do to these cars over time and who does the work. Treat it like a rolling project. Select a good specialist with the specialist diagnostics and test equipment for specialised work (eg. electrical faults with the climate control, or the central locking, or issues with the hydraulic systems) but use a good reputable regular garage to do something like, changing the front ball joints or replacing the front springs etc. You just have to be careful.
Edited by matt5791 on Saturday 11th July 06:48
Albeit this thread started life as a 'running cost' post, I have put a number of comments relating to my experience in dealing with Continental R issues, which I have come across since purchasing last Autumn. So , in case it is of interest to other owners, particularly those who may be inclined to 'have a go themselves' for straightforward work, rather than shell out the huge labour rates, I will continue recounting items, which I have found and which have made a huge difference to the enjoyment of the car.
From day one I was surprised at the relatively lumpy ride, having had experience of older Bentleys, which seemed a lot more 'graceful'. I consulted 2 specialists, one after the other, each one carrying out a 'health check' and, depressingly, each one making totally different suggestions of work that needed doing to improve matters.
Diagnoses started with incorrect tyres ( which they are, but these were brand new when I purchased the car, so dificult to bring myself to throw away ) - unbalanced wheels, incorrect geometry, steering rack problems and basically everything that we all know could be wrong, but nothing certain. The wheel balancing made no difference, the steering rack was a worthwhile job but made no difference, the geometry is a red herring and may need doing after I have finished messing around but is not causing the wobble at 80mph +.
I was then told by Royce Engineering that a front lower balljoint was very badly worn and that it needed immediate attention - good news - something positive. So I started stripping down the front suspension and that is when the enlightenment really started.
The fact is, no-one can properly find the wear on bushes and balljoints on these cars, unless the part is terminally bad or otherwise the front suspension is totally stripped down to release the pressure on all the parts.
It transpired that both lower balljoints were shot to bits - relatively easy to replace but you need to be really careful to put in sufficient shims to keep everything tight.
Also the inner subframe bushes were worn - also straightforward but very labout intensive. Then when checking the lower wishbone rear bushes, for which it is necessary to release the bottom balljoint on the damper, I was surprised to fnd that the damper bottom balljoints were rattling in their cups.All of these show no sign of movement when assembled and under tension even with a crowbar.
Also both the outer trackrod arms had loose balljoints.
The final item which had unwanted movement was the lower steering fitting which has a UJ at each end. This had sufficient play to knock slightly.
Add all these items together and you have a serious amount of sloppy play throughout the front of the car.
Parts costs are high compared with normal cars - 2 lower balljoints ( £178 each ) £356; 2 damper lower balljoints ( £134 each ) - £268. Track rods ( you cannot buy the balljoints separately ) £257 each = £514; Main camber bushes ( £82 each ) = £164.the nasty item is the steering coupling at £432. Total for all of those parts = £1,734.
If you are prepared to do the work yourself, you will have rebuilt the entire front suspension and removed any possibility of wear for under £2k,and you will save yourself the same again in labour.
Result - brand new ride, utterly smooth, no vibration - happiness ! If of interest, I have a few pictures but the lesson here is that any car that is 20 years old, weighs as much as the QE2 and has enough grunt to be thrown around a bit, will definitely have all its rubber clad parts worn out and probably all the balljoints as well. So if anyone is about to purchase I would look very hard at recent work carried out on the car. My car has an impeccable service record and all invoices but very little , if any, work was ever done on the mechanical suspension items.
From day one I was surprised at the relatively lumpy ride, having had experience of older Bentleys, which seemed a lot more 'graceful'. I consulted 2 specialists, one after the other, each one carrying out a 'health check' and, depressingly, each one making totally different suggestions of work that needed doing to improve matters.
Diagnoses started with incorrect tyres ( which they are, but these were brand new when I purchased the car, so dificult to bring myself to throw away ) - unbalanced wheels, incorrect geometry, steering rack problems and basically everything that we all know could be wrong, but nothing certain. The wheel balancing made no difference, the steering rack was a worthwhile job but made no difference, the geometry is a red herring and may need doing after I have finished messing around but is not causing the wobble at 80mph +.
I was then told by Royce Engineering that a front lower balljoint was very badly worn and that it needed immediate attention - good news - something positive. So I started stripping down the front suspension and that is when the enlightenment really started.
The fact is, no-one can properly find the wear on bushes and balljoints on these cars, unless the part is terminally bad or otherwise the front suspension is totally stripped down to release the pressure on all the parts.
It transpired that both lower balljoints were shot to bits - relatively easy to replace but you need to be really careful to put in sufficient shims to keep everything tight.
Also the inner subframe bushes were worn - also straightforward but very labout intensive. Then when checking the lower wishbone rear bushes, for which it is necessary to release the bottom balljoint on the damper, I was surprised to fnd that the damper bottom balljoints were rattling in their cups.All of these show no sign of movement when assembled and under tension even with a crowbar.
Also both the outer trackrod arms had loose balljoints.
The final item which had unwanted movement was the lower steering fitting which has a UJ at each end. This had sufficient play to knock slightly.
Add all these items together and you have a serious amount of sloppy play throughout the front of the car.
Parts costs are high compared with normal cars - 2 lower balljoints ( £178 each ) £356; 2 damper lower balljoints ( £134 each ) - £268. Track rods ( you cannot buy the balljoints separately ) £257 each = £514; Main camber bushes ( £82 each ) = £164.the nasty item is the steering coupling at £432. Total for all of those parts = £1,734.
If you are prepared to do the work yourself, you will have rebuilt the entire front suspension and removed any possibility of wear for under £2k,and you will save yourself the same again in labour.
Result - brand new ride, utterly smooth, no vibration - happiness ! If of interest, I have a few pictures but the lesson here is that any car that is 20 years old, weighs as much as the QE2 and has enough grunt to be thrown around a bit, will definitely have all its rubber clad parts worn out and probably all the balljoints as well. So if anyone is about to purchase I would look very hard at recent work carried out on the car. My car has an impeccable service record and all invoices but very little , if any, work was ever done on the mechanical suspension items.
Contimaz said:
Albeit this thread started life as a 'running cost' post, I have put a number of comments relating to my experience in dealing with Continental R issues, which I have come across since purchasing last Autumn. So , in case it is of interest to other owners, particularly those who may be inclined to 'have a go themselves' for straightforward work, rather than shell out the huge labour rates, I will continue recounting items, which I have found and which have made a huge difference to the enjoyment of the car.
From day one I was surprised at the relatively lumpy ride, having had experience of older Bentleys, which seemed a lot more 'graceful'. I consulted 2 specialists, one after the other, each one carrying out a 'health check' and, depressingly, each one making totally different suggestions of work that needed doing to improve matters.
Diagnoses started with incorrect tyres ( which they are, but these were brand new when I purchased the car, so dificult to bring myself to throw away ) - unbalanced wheels, incorrect geometry, steering rack problems and basically everything that we all know could be wrong, but nothing certain. The wheel balancing made no difference, the steering rack was a worthwhile job but made no difference, the geometry is a red herring and may need doing after I have finished messing around but is not causing the wobble at 80mph +.
I was then told by Royce Engineering that a front lower balljoint was very badly worn and that it needed immediate attention - good news - something positive. So I started stripping down the front suspension and that is when the enlightenment really started.
The fact is, no-one can properly find the wear on bushes and balljoints on these cars, unless the part is terminally bad or otherwise the front suspension is totally stripped down to release the pressure on all the parts.
It transpired that both lower balljoints were shot to bits - relatively easy to replace but you need to be really careful to put in sufficient shims to keep everything tight.
Also the inner subframe bushes were worn - also straightforward but very labout intensive. Then when checking the lower wishbone rear bushes, for which it is necessary to release the bottom balljoint on the damper, I was surprised to fnd that the damper bottom balljoints were rattling in their cups.All of these show no sign of movement when assembled and under tension even with a crowbar.
Also both the outer trackrod arms had loose balljoints.
The final item which had unwanted movement was the lower steering fitting which has a UJ at each end. This had sufficient play to knock slightly.
Add all these items together and you have a serious amount of sloppy play throughout the front of the car.
Parts costs are high compared with normal cars - 2 lower balljoints ( £178 each ) £356; 2 damper lower balljoints ( £134 each ) - £268. Track rods ( you cannot buy the balljoints separately ) £257 each = £514; Main camber bushes ( £82 each ) = £164.the nasty item is the steering coupling at £432. Total for all of those parts = £1,734.
If you are prepared to do the work yourself, you will have rebuilt the entire front suspension and removed any possibility of wear for under £2k,and you will save yourself the same again in labour.
Result - brand new ride, utterly smooth, no vibration - happiness ! If of interest, I have a few pictures but the lesson here is that any car that is 20 years old, weighs as much as the QE2 and has enough grunt to be thrown around a bit, will definitely have all its rubber clad parts worn out and probably all the balljoints as well. So if anyone is about to purchase I would look very hard at recent work carried out on the car. My car has an impeccable service record and all invoices but very little , if any, work was ever done on the mechanical suspension items.
This is really interesting - my car sounds as though it has almost identical issues in the suspension. I too have been frustrated by the crappy ride and "dead" front end - I really like cars to drive right I am was not at all convinced about my front end - even after having both ball joints replaced.From day one I was surprised at the relatively lumpy ride, having had experience of older Bentleys, which seemed a lot more 'graceful'. I consulted 2 specialists, one after the other, each one carrying out a 'health check' and, depressingly, each one making totally different suggestions of work that needed doing to improve matters.
Diagnoses started with incorrect tyres ( which they are, but these were brand new when I purchased the car, so dificult to bring myself to throw away ) - unbalanced wheels, incorrect geometry, steering rack problems and basically everything that we all know could be wrong, but nothing certain. The wheel balancing made no difference, the steering rack was a worthwhile job but made no difference, the geometry is a red herring and may need doing after I have finished messing around but is not causing the wobble at 80mph +.
I was then told by Royce Engineering that a front lower balljoint was very badly worn and that it needed immediate attention - good news - something positive. So I started stripping down the front suspension and that is when the enlightenment really started.
The fact is, no-one can properly find the wear on bushes and balljoints on these cars, unless the part is terminally bad or otherwise the front suspension is totally stripped down to release the pressure on all the parts.
It transpired that both lower balljoints were shot to bits - relatively easy to replace but you need to be really careful to put in sufficient shims to keep everything tight.
Also the inner subframe bushes were worn - also straightforward but very labout intensive. Then when checking the lower wishbone rear bushes, for which it is necessary to release the bottom balljoint on the damper, I was surprised to fnd that the damper bottom balljoints were rattling in their cups.All of these show no sign of movement when assembled and under tension even with a crowbar.
Also both the outer trackrod arms had loose balljoints.
The final item which had unwanted movement was the lower steering fitting which has a UJ at each end. This had sufficient play to knock slightly.
Add all these items together and you have a serious amount of sloppy play throughout the front of the car.
Parts costs are high compared with normal cars - 2 lower balljoints ( £178 each ) £356; 2 damper lower balljoints ( £134 each ) - £268. Track rods ( you cannot buy the balljoints separately ) £257 each = £514; Main camber bushes ( £82 each ) = £164.the nasty item is the steering coupling at £432. Total for all of those parts = £1,734.
If you are prepared to do the work yourself, you will have rebuilt the entire front suspension and removed any possibility of wear for under £2k,and you will save yourself the same again in labour.
Result - brand new ride, utterly smooth, no vibration - happiness ! If of interest, I have a few pictures but the lesson here is that any car that is 20 years old, weighs as much as the QE2 and has enough grunt to be thrown around a bit, will definitely have all its rubber clad parts worn out and probably all the balljoints as well. So if anyone is about to purchase I would look very hard at recent work carried out on the car. My car has an impeccable service record and all invoices but very little , if any, work was ever done on the mechanical suspension items.
I would add in that I am also sure that my front springs are well past their sell by date and cause the car to sit far too low and the front wheels to assume too much negative camber.
Very useful! Thanks!
Good to see you driving your car.I have a continental T mulliner,done 63,000miles.Had all usual servicing and reckon your costs of 5k match mine.I can squeeze 20 mpg in cruise on a motorway.Its a magnificent car and it needs using.I would rather buy a "serviced" car with some miles than one that's just left in a garage and polished.I think these cars are seriously undervalued and will not be getting any cheaper with or without miles.
Great to see you're using the continental R.I am using a continental T mulliner as my daily transport.I agree with your costs.Recently had the 60k service and car feels like new.Apart from a few minor leather creaks,its silent.Massively undervalued,but I suspect real petrol heads are beginning to realise.My car will be stopping commuting after October for the winter months,cant wait for summer!
I thought I would check back in for a quick update on the Azure. Its been a while and for most of the time the car has been with Phantom Motors. I got her back last week and she is utterly amazing. Frankly I do not have the ability or the bravery to tackle some of the jobs covered above myself - and have full respect for those of you who do. But Phantom went through the car from top to bottom. Mainly it was good news but a huge amount of what's covered in the thread above was sorely needed. In particular the suspension, front and rear, was shot to pieces and rusted away. Brakes were also fairly woeful. When I got the car it was okayish to drive although I realised there were issues. Now she is phenomenal. With glorious weather last weekend, top down, winding country roads, the car was fast and utterly planted on the tarmac. And then you just step back and look at her....and grin!
Phantom's invoice ran to 11 pages and they've put in 112 hours so the cost of the car has increased significantly - but frankly not by more than I thought was reasonable. They have provided exceptional service. Would I have bought the Azure if Phantom had inspected the car pre-purchase? Almost certainly not. Am I pleased I've got it? Hell yes! Cheers for now.
Phantom's invoice ran to 11 pages and they've put in 112 hours so the cost of the car has increased significantly - but frankly not by more than I thought was reasonable. They have provided exceptional service. Would I have bought the Azure if Phantom had inspected the car pre-purchase? Almost certainly not. Am I pleased I've got it? Hell yes! Cheers for now.
Suspension and brakes Suspension and brakes Suspension and brakes Suspension and brakes - a very regular sounding story with these cars! Almost all the cars for sale appear to have tired suspension (it's visible even in the photos).
My car is no exception.
Can you give us a bit of a run down on what they did over the 112 hours? That is one massive labour bill.
My car is no exception.
Can you give us a bit of a run down on what they did over the 112 hours? That is one massive labour bill.
Yes 112 hours is the sort of 'extra' that would have me sweating bigtime - at £108 ( inc Vat that I cannot reclaim )per hour and knowing that the parts are by no means cheap , I fear you have spent almost half of what I paid for my Conti R to have your Azure put in proper running order.
It would be great if you could reveal some of the costs for specific items especially as this thread started as 'running costs ' albeit these are more 'remedial father time works'.
It shows how skewed the market value of cars can look when it is possible to buy a Conti or Azure and then easily be faced with a bill of 25% more to 'put it right'. Luckily this mostly happens when you are still madly in love rather than just in a relationship with the car, so the pain diminishes slightly.
As you correctly pointed out, most of the time a buyer would be put off if someone from Phantom or similar was paid to do a pre-purchase survey for, say, a £1,000 fee. But it wouldn't half weed out out the ropey cars and force owners to be honest about their maintenance habits.
I think, just from this thread, we could assemble a very useful 20 point document to assist would-be purchasers as to what to look for when buying one of these amazingly beautiful cars - with a warning of costs if each point is not checked.
It would be great if you could reveal some of the costs for specific items especially as this thread started as 'running costs ' albeit these are more 'remedial father time works'.
It shows how skewed the market value of cars can look when it is possible to buy a Conti or Azure and then easily be faced with a bill of 25% more to 'put it right'. Luckily this mostly happens when you are still madly in love rather than just in a relationship with the car, so the pain diminishes slightly.
As you correctly pointed out, most of the time a buyer would be put off if someone from Phantom or similar was paid to do a pre-purchase survey for, say, a £1,000 fee. But it wouldn't half weed out out the ropey cars and force owners to be honest about their maintenance habits.
I think, just from this thread, we could assemble a very useful 20 point document to assist would-be purchasers as to what to look for when buying one of these amazingly beautiful cars - with a warning of costs if each point is not checked.
Here is the first of the 20 points: Check Suspension
It seems very few cars on the market have fully sorted suspension, and "full service history" does not mean you can assume all will be well. The biggest issue seems to be tired springs so the car sits too low on the front with too much negative camber. And then once you start taking it apart, most of the bushes will be in need of replacement too.
I think one of the issues is some owners are not that bothered about how the car actually drives, or don't realise it's driving incorrectly, especially as many cars (especially Continental R / Azure) don't get driven all that much anyway, kept garaged as collectors pieces. Nothing wrong with that, but the suspension deteriorates whether the car is used or not, especially when many of these cars are now approaching, or more than, 20 years old.
For me, anything less than completely correct ride and handling is a real issue that I find very annoying indeed, spoiling the driving experience - and the aesthetics as they look silly with the wrong ride height, appearing excessively 'heavy' on the front end.
I currently have RR&B garages, in Bromsgrove, preparing a quote for me for rebuild of front suspension and I will update with quoted, and then actual, figures when I have them.
It seems very few cars on the market have fully sorted suspension, and "full service history" does not mean you can assume all will be well. The biggest issue seems to be tired springs so the car sits too low on the front with too much negative camber. And then once you start taking it apart, most of the bushes will be in need of replacement too.
I think one of the issues is some owners are not that bothered about how the car actually drives, or don't realise it's driving incorrectly, especially as many cars (especially Continental R / Azure) don't get driven all that much anyway, kept garaged as collectors pieces. Nothing wrong with that, but the suspension deteriorates whether the car is used or not, especially when many of these cars are now approaching, or more than, 20 years old.
For me, anything less than completely correct ride and handling is a real issue that I find very annoying indeed, spoiling the driving experience - and the aesthetics as they look silly with the wrong ride height, appearing excessively 'heavy' on the front end.
I currently have RR&B garages, in Bromsgrove, preparing a quote for me for rebuild of front suspension and I will update with quoted, and then actual, figures when I have them.
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