Taking the plunge

[RubiconCSL]

First of all - hi (just joined).

I'm looking at buying my first RR and want some advice from people that have been there. I'm probably looking for either a Silver Shadow or maybe Silver Spirit. I'd rather a RR than a Bentley at this point - I want to see that Spirit of Ecstasy when I look out of the windscreen Looking around, it would appear I can get one for between 10k and maybe 15k (depending on mileage, condition etc.). From a dealer, probably add another £5k at least.

Do the prices here look reasonable: http://hanwells.net/car-showrooms? Clearly more expensive than buying privately, but they do a 100 point check and repair anything that comes up, full service and MOT and give a 24 month warranty - which could I guess be worth it in the long run, especially as I have no real experience of buying these cars, so could get caught out if I buy privately. However, if they are maybe 5k more than I could get them privately, would I be better off taking the risk - if I take my time? Can one buy a decent warranty privately for a car of this age to cover any seriously big costs? They reckon that after 12 months, I'd lose around 3,500 if I traded in and around another 2,500 after 2 years. 6k in 2 years looks a bit steep on a car that has cost between 15k and 20k; I had assumed that depreciation at these sorts of ages would be very low.

Next thing, mpg. I'm guessing around 12mpg? I have seen one with a "professional" conversion to a 4.8 litre land cruiser diesel that returns 28mpg. However, is the trade off of better mpg vs value/easy of resale/engine noise worth it? Has anyone else any experience of such conversions? 28mpg would be pretty much the same as I get fro my BMW 320! I'm not concerned with maybe losing acceleration; I'm not buying a sports car!

Realistically, without warranty, what would I be allowing a year to keep one of these beauties on the road? I have been advised £2k should cover it: service, MOT and unknowns. I realise something big could go that would blow 2k out of the water, but assuming no massive issues, would £2k be reasonable?

If I take running costs, fuel for say 5k miles a year, road tax, insurance - would I be realistic in running it for say £4,500 ish? Have I forgotten anything?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[jeyjey]

Your running costs estimate seems in the ballpark.

I'd expect a little bit better than 12mpg assuming some highway miles. But only a little better -- maybe 13 or 14.

Putting a diesel in (no matter how well done) will reduce the value to under £5K.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[jeyjey]

Oh, and for that age vehicle, all the manuals are available online at http://rrtechnical.info.

You'll also find that PH tends to be more active with the later cars. For more activity with the earlier cars, check out http://www.rollsroyceforums.com/forums/.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[RubiconCSL]

Thanks - what I thought and probably goes some way to explaining why on Hanwell's, it is massively less expensive (I'll let you guess which has the conversion):-

ROLLS-ROYCE SILVER SHADOW (3)

1980 V Rolls Royce Silver Shadow Series II in Willow Gold £69.750
1980 V Rolls Royce Silver Shadow Series II in Classic Walnut £15.950

jeyjey said:

Putting a diesel in (no matter how well done) will reduce the value to under £5K.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Xtriple129]

They are fantastic cars and if you want one, then only a Rolls-Royce will do. I wanted a Bentley...

Get the very best car you can afford, up the budget if necessary and get it inspected before purchase by an independent and known good person. They are very reliable but big bills (and I mean HUGE) are only a very easy mistake to make, away.

If you get a diesel, you will be ostracised from everywhere, shunned in fact But, seriously, just don't. The joy of driving these is in no small part to the wonderful engine (huge torque at very low revs and in near silence)and a diesel will really spoil that, ruin a good car and lose you lots of money when you come to resell.

If you go it alone, then check the service history is recent - lots of cars have great service histories but it was all from years ago, which is worthless really, you need to see history in recent times and you want to see invoices as well from specialists that know the cars. Most of the specialist also note at the bottom of invoices anything that is coming up for renewal or work, so always worth having a good look.

Brakes. suspension and steering are the main worries. Steering racks are very nearly a service item as they are rather small and they are BIG heavy cars, they seem to last about 2 years! Brakes and suspension are lovely when working but will hurt your wallet in no time flat if there are leaks or a hard ride (spheres have gone... which are cheap!)and even disc pads are pricey (£400 for the fronts on my car... plus VAT!) so don't expect anything to be cheap.

If you go for a later Spirit, watch for seats not working and troubles starting, both of these are down to separate ECUs with internal batteries leaking and damaging the pcb. Seat ones are about £400 to repair and the alarm immobiliser one about the same. Apparently, the electric motors NEVER go, always the switches, wiring or, most commonly these blasted ECUs.

Severe rust is rarely an issue underneath as they were galvanised to the level of the bottoms of the doors (why not the whole car?) but the rear spring pans do rust for a pastime and cost about £500 to renew, though I guess you could get one bodged for less... don't!

There is much more I could go on about but would just put you off which I don't want to do (honestly!) but I suggest you join the rr forum listed above and also the Australian RR forum. They are a mine of quality information and have a huge resource on the site.

In my opinion (and it is just that) I prefer the series 2 onwards cars with active ride (softer than the Bentley equivalent but still much better than the earlier cars) ABS and fuel injection - I think they came out for the 90 model year so 1989. Weirdly, to begin with there were loads more Spirits than Bentleys (about 90% of production was Rolls-Royce) but by the end of production it was down to 20% of production so Spirits and derivatives are much rarer the later you go! The last cars are fantastic and gained the light pressure turbo (300 hp), 4 speed box (still on the column on RR) and many, many upgrades.

My first Turbo R went 'Bang' in quite a spectacular fashion, which is very, very rare and my second one (which I still have) was bought in a bit of a rush and cost me the gross national product of a small African nation to get right, but it was the car I wanted and rare so... Servicing now is down to about £400 for a basic service but I always have something done (brake hoses last time and new tyres as they were both old) so expect bills to be up in the £1000 - £2000 range. You can do a lot yourself if you are that way inclined and sometimes you are better sourcing things yourself than letting the specialist buy from Flying spares or Crewe as genuine prices will make your testicles shrivel faster than an arctic blast! FS wanted £17 (plus VAT and postage) for each plug for my car in RR or Bentley boxes but the recommended plugs are good old NGKs which I bought locally for £45 for the 8! Seriously, for a laugh and to scare yourself, go on the Flying Spares website, prices of parts will shock you... but, a lot of these parts were specific to our cars and even if not, RR had the nasty habit of putting their own part numbers on things rather than the original, so finding out who made what, is not always easy.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. Buy one and enjoy.

[RubiconCSL]

Thanks for the advice so far. I'm still torn (with my lack of depth of knowledge on these cars) between buying from a reputable/specialist dealer or risking a private buy. Clearly, the risk would be I buy a dud and sell one of my kidneys to pay for the work - although I would find someone to check a car over for me if I bought privately (whatever that cost would be I don't know).

So, very ballpark figures, let's say a 1990 Spirit with reasonable mileage and in reasonable condition. What would I be looking at private compared with Trade? For example (and I have no idea how good/reputable this dealer is), this is on for £16k and has had "a lot of work done recently": http://www.silverladyservices.co.uk/used/ROLLS-ROY... What would you think this is worth for a private buy?

[jeyjey]

Private sellers will be much more varied. A desperate-to-sell one might have that car at £10K, while someone with too much money already in it might be trying to sell it for £18K.

I don't know that dealer, but it looks reasonably priced to me.

Dorset isn't too far from Paul Yorke (a specialist in south Wales who does pre-purchase inspections). Have him go check it out and buy it if it meets spec.

Cheers,
Jeff.

PS: Paul's website is at www.everythingrollsroyce.com. I've used him before and can recommend him.

[allister]

Hi RibiconCSL

While I don't own a Rolls Royce but a Bentley (albeit in a slightly different price bracket), I've spent probably the last 10 years looking at Rolls Royce's and Bentleys from £10k upwards (Bentley Turbo R's in particular).

During this time, I've looked at many cars (online) from Hanwell's and while I've never had any dealings with them, I've always found their stock to be quite expensive - Their being based in London, means they will almost certainly be charging a premium also. Furthermore, if they are retailing local cars, I'd probably avoid them - Any London cars which have spent much of there time sat in traffic, or being shunted in and out of parking spaces are probably best avoided.

Unfortunately, I can't give you much advice on what to look for mechanically, I can however advise you on a couple of things:

Firstly, just take your time and enjoy it..... Looking for, and finding your dream car is at least half the fun! - Don't see the buying process as a chore, it should be exciting (although you will of course see some disappointing junk along the way). Finding the right car will be far more rewarding than rushing in to buying the wrong one.

Secondly, at this price point I would only buy from a dealer if it were a real gem, a cherished example that he had some how fallen upon - From my experience, many dealers cars are tarted up junk. They like to make out that they've get their own special, secret sources, but the truth is they haven't! With the exception of one or two part exchanges they occasionally receive in, they're out trying to buy exactly the same cars as everybody else. Moreover, you tend to find any repairs they have done as part of the cars preparation, are usually done on the cheap and by their usual mechanic mate.

If it were me, I'd visit loads of private sellers over the next 3-6 months and look at the person as well as the car....... You'll want to see a good solid history, lots of recent receipts and someone who is probably an enthusiast and has owned the car for some time (you don't want someone who's bought a load of trouble 6 months earlier, who's now trying to pass it on) and then just go with your gut!

The £4-5k you save by not lining the dealers pocket will give you a nice little safety net as and when any repairs are required.

Good luck

Allister

[matt5791]

It's a really simple situation - find a car that sounds like you might like it and if you are unsure of your own ability to make a judgement, then pay someone to inspect it. There are a number of people who will do this, you could try Paul Yorke of Everything Rolls Royce. But you also have to watch who you ask to do the inspection because it's a close knit industry and they all know each other - Paul is out on a limb in Wales which is why I would feel more confident in him.

Second thing, not all dealers are created equal. There are some dealers who will specifically ONLY sell really nice cars and offer them only in fully prepped condition - for example, P & A Wood, or, local to me, RR&B Garages (there are others I am sure). But you will pay a premium for these cars.

On the other hand, there are many dealers who are less particular as to what they sell - often picking cars up at auction and just "flipping" them for a margin with little or no preparation beyond a good valeting. I wont mention any names on this front, but there are well know and well established dealers who I know do exactly this - nothing wrong with it, you just need to have your wits about you because often the cars are VERY over described! The dangerous thing is many of the dealers in this category masquerade as on a par with the aforementioned P&A Wood or RR&B and make out that they only sell the nicest - when in actual fact, they are really just "flippers". And people get taken in by the obligatory pomp or better than average photography. It's almost like Russian roulette - some of their cars are genuinely nice and some are genuinely nasty.

So I would say, in conclusion, a complete novice with little understanding of these cars could happily buy a car from the likes of P&A Wood or RR&B with complete confidence and without having an independent inspection. But most other dealers and private sales - get an inspection.

Personally, I would tend towards private sale because you can find some real gems, and you don't have to listen to the dealer bullst.


....Almost forgot to mention. Remember, regardless of where you buy from, these cars are SLOW SELLERS - especially Spirits. Buyers are few and far between. NEVER be afraid to bid the seller embarrassingly low, properly low. Like so low, you find it hard to get the words out. Just tell them it's what you think it's worth and get them to counter bid. Have the cash with you too. You might be amazed what sort of a deal you can negotiate. If you go in low, you can always come up. And if you don't do the deal, there are always other cars out there.

Edited by matt5791 on Thursday 12th January 22:05

[allister]

It seems Matt5791 was writing something very similar at the same time as me - It's probably all good advice.

Matt also makes a good point, don't be afraid to offer very low, explaining that that's all you think it's worth - As Matt says, Rolls Royce and Bentley are slow sellers with a very small market.

Take your time looking and enjoy the experience.

[tonys]

It's worth spending time on research if you aren't clued up about the various models and spec. changes.

Personally, I wouldn't even give a second thought to a diesel, unless you drove it, liked it and were prepared to run it into the ground. The one advertised has been on the market for a long time and must have a very limited market of potential buyers; hence my comments. If the extra economy (ignoring cheaper purchase price) of a diesel over the V8 appeals to a buyer, it's probably a fair comment that perhaps a Rolls isn't really the right option.

Head gaskets are starting to become more of an issue on turbo engines (ie primarily Bentleys). Various threads on internet searches/forums.

http://www.robisonservice.com/servicedep/rolls_dep...

Whilst American, Robinson has several buying articles on his website, as well as items on head gaskets. Use the links in the site to navigate around it.

Some Shadows etc are fitted with Harvey Bailey handling kits, which firm them up a bit. RR offered a similar kit, but I forget the applicable years. Some take the view that the Shadows have aged better than the squarer Spirits.

Shadows had various changes throughput production; generally, the later, the better. Flared arch models (about 1972 IIRC) introduced revised suspension.

Shadow 11s have rack and pinion steering, revised dash and aircon. Identified by rubber bumpers and twin outlet exhaust.

Early Spirits were basically mechanically the same as Shadow.

Later Spirits did become slightly more complex, ie ABS and fuel injection (generally positive additions) and also Active Ride and memory seats etc, both of which can cause problems (IMHO). Many don't, but many do. Seat battery issue has already been mentioned.

Once you reach the Brooklands and later TurboRs there were various engine and engine management changes over the years (ie Zytek), all of which can be the source of 'bespoke concerns', to use Aston terminology. That isn't to say there's necessarily anything wrong with them, just more complexity as greater power outputs etc were sought

Bentley Turbo was later replaced by TurboR, with uprated suspension, different seats etc.
Bentley Eight was an 'introductory' model, minor trim differences.

Early active ride models defaulted to 'firm' if there was a problem, later ones to comfort, IIRC.

Many sellers ask more for Bentley Ts, based on the fact that they made fewer of them. That is correct, but they're the same car, apart from badges, grille (Bentley one was cheaper to make) and, consequently, a slightly different shape bonnet to fit the grille outline.

Later Mulsannes /Turbos had varying degrees of suspension variations, again, depends on exact model and model year.

Take your time, research model variations and look at a few. You might be lucky, private sale, single owner, returned to the factory/main dealer every 3 months for servicing, owner keen to sell etc..

[RubiconCSL]

Thanks Tony.

I think I'm going to have to do a lot of homework before I jump in. There is no big hurry though and as they say, act in haste repent at your leisure!

I think it is still a RR rather than a Bentley. Just now which model I go for in the price range I am comfortable with. I'll also try out the links offered up here and work out what the pros and cons are of the various models, along with making a nice list of the main potential issues to look out for on them.

I really do not like the big rectangular headlights on the later models, compared to the two round ones and do prefer the overall shape of the older cars too. The older models just look much more distinctly a Rolls Royce, rather than just a big version of so many other cars of that age. But I guess I'd then have to go back to a much older car and lose some of the newer features (ABS etc.) as well as probably be spending more on repairs simply because of the age and scarcity of parts.

There is also the small point of me building a garage to house the little beauty. Do they really need a garage with some sort of air conditioning and/or heating? Or is that really just going OTT? Maybe building a garage and putting on e of these inside: http://www.airflow-uk.co.uk/Car-Airchamber-all-siz...

[WelshBentleyBoy]

I keep my Arnage T and Bmw 635 CSI in an air conditioned garage with no covers on the cars. This seems to work well. In the past I have used both a Carcoon and an Airchamber but whilst they both do a super job in preventing corrosion it is difficult to get the car in and out. The Airchamber was better in that aspect but not as well built as the Carcoon. If you are only going to use the car for summer use then a chamber is a possibility.

Paul

[C70GT]

All good advice in the above posts.

Having been a Silver Cloud III owner for 32 years, I would add: Join the Rolls - Royce Enthusiasts Club - often referred to as the Rolls - Royce Eating Club for good reason. Get along to some events and chat with owners of models you are looking at. The club also run technical weekends at the club headquarters at Paulerspury - just down the road from Silverstone. These are hands on run by experts in their own field and not a G&T in sight.

P&A Wood are the 'Rolls - Royce' of R-R dealers and only offer the very, very best examples, but you will pay a hefty premium for the privilege. Another reputable company is Hillier Hill at Olney, Bucks - very honest enthusiastic people to deal with.

Do your homework, talk to as many owners as possible, look at many cars before taking the plunge and above all buy the very best you can afford, it will be cheaper in the long run. Oh, and if you are considering a Diesel conversion, a rolls is not for you. Also they are never, never, ever called a roller. Always referred to as 'The Rolls' or 'The Spirit', 'The Cloud' or what ever model it is.

[deeen]

RubiconCSL said:

Thanks for the advice so far. I'm still torn (with my lack of depth of knowledge on these cars) between buying from a reputable/specialist dealer or risking a private buy. Clearly, the risk would be I buy a dud and sell one of my kidneys to pay for the work - although I would find someone to check a car over for me if I bought privately (whatever that cost would be I don't know).

So, very ballpark figures, let's say a 1990 Spirit with reasonable mileage and in reasonable condition. What would I be looking at private compared with Trade? For example (and I have no idea how good/reputable this dealer is), this is on for £16k and has had "a lot of work done recently": http://www.silverladyservices.co.uk/used/ROLLS-ROY... What would you think this is worth for a private buy?

That link didn't work for me, so I went to the website. Having owned a 5k one, the vibe from the dealer's website gave me a bit of a negative twitch. There are 3 under 20k. I would discount the oyster one, it's low at the back and it looks like a 5k one that's been tarted up, to me. The other two have the benefit (if everything's working) of being slightly later cars. The red one is the only one to mention FSH, so it might be worth having a good read, and seeing which important bits have been done. It looks expensive to me - 10k private? - but if the FSH means no big bills, maybe it's 15k from a dealer, after your haggle?

I like the blue one best, bit of a soft spot for the Spur, less common than the Spirit But you'd need a really good inspection if it doesn't have a proper service record, and again, it seems overpriced, to me.

For me it's either the early Shadow and accept you're buying a '60s car, or a late Spirit to get the benefit of development. 15-17mpg. maybe even 20mpg at a steady 50mph!

Also I think Shadows will hold their value now, a £15k Spirit could be £5k in 5 years time, if the rust comes through.

As for what to look for, well I looked at 5 Spirits, they rust! However if you are not going concours, some rust repairs are cheaper than major mechanicals. Hydraulics as mentioned, and it sounds simple, but they're so smooth it's not always obvious... check it's running on all 8 cylinders!