Classic Bentley or Rolls Royce from 1920-30s
Discussion
As per the title I’m currently toying with the idea of adding an older car to my garage. I’ve totally fallen in love with the Bentley Blowers but funds do not stretch to that far.
Therefore I’m thinking that one of the more common cars between the £35k-95k price point would satisfy the urge.
Any owners on here with cars of that vintage that could provide words of wisdom?
Therefore I’m thinking that one of the more common cars between the £35k-95k price point would satisfy the urge.
Any owners on here with cars of that vintage that could provide words of wisdom?
Edited by W12GT on Monday 4th September 14:16
Hi OP
Thought I'd share my 2pence worth. I'd love a Blower Bentley too - or anything from the Bentley Cricklewood era (1919 - 1931) but the budget you suggest means that isn't possible - totally out of my league too!
In terms of usability, a later 1930s car will be easier to drive (synchromesh) and have more performance to keep up with modern traffic.
In terms of the more popular cars - I guess it comes down to the Small Horsepower R-R range (20HP, 20/25, 25/30 & Wraith) and the Derby Bentleys (3 1/2 & 4 1/4).
20/25s from March 1932 (GKT 1 onwards) had synchromesh on 3rd and top. As the engines are pretty torquey, you can often start in 2nd, meaning most changes don't need double declutching. Overdrive fitment (from the likes of Tim Payne) allows them to cruise at 55 - 60mph, if everything else is well looked after.
Example:
https://www.realcar.co.uk/view-cars/2502 - for a slightly vintage feel
20/25s can suffer from cracked blocks and heads, so don't be concerned if a car you are interested in has been fitted with replacements. The key is that it was done well and no short cuts. Regular use and maintenance is the best way of keeping these cars in good fettle. Lack of use means things dry out, get sticky and gum up. One thing which looks odd to modern eyes is how oily they should be underneath - they all use a total loss oil lubrication system for the chassis (rather than sealed grease bearings etc), so expect to see oil on the floor of the garage and a light misting all over the chassis, especially at pivots, springs and shackles. Beware of any car which is completely dry - shows lack of use, lubrication and care.
Other useful modifications are the addition of a full flow oil filter to make best use of modern multi grade engine oils, rather than straight mineral oils, which need regular changing (about every 1000 miles).
Lights can be upgraded to make the cars more visible and useable at night too.
The Derby Bentleys offer a more sporting driving experience. As a sports car engineered by Rolls-Royce, they are a very sweet thing to drive. Created after the acquisition of the brankrupt Bentley Motors Ltd in 1931, they made use of R-Rs in-house project developments for a smaller sportier Rolls-Royce.
Example:
https://www.realcar.co.uk/view-cars/2553
The 3 1/2 and later 4 1/4 are very well regarded and are celebrating their 90th Anniversary this year with a big get together, later in September at Chatsworth House.
As with any car from the 20s and 30s, it is probably best to either buy one as a complete ground up project (my route) or the best condition one you can find, with someone else having paid the bills. The cars are mechanically very robust, able to rack up huge mileages, but renewing lots of worn out parts is expensive. Body and trim condition is also key as rectifying these can be expensive too.
It then comes down to find one which really appeals - a combination of which style, coachbuilder and colour combination floats your boat.
There are some excellent options, should you go looking at cars are the following dealers - Real Car Company, Frank Dale & Stepsons, Vintage and Prestige, Jonathan Wood.
Auctions can also provide a cheaper route in, but you really need to know what you are looking at and where the issues might be. Since you can't test drive them or have very little comeback if they aren't as described, they are much higher risk.
There are plenty of cars out there in the price range you specified - I'd really suggest finding a few you like, go drive them and see what you like.
And, if you haven't already, join the RREC. This covers all R-Rs and Bentleys built from 1931 - the private forum is an absolute mine of information, with very knowledgeable people willing to share what they have learnt. The club runs a good selection of events, with regional get togethers etc. It also holds an amazing archive of records - original factory order sheets for every car built, drawings etc.
Good luck and please keep us updated on how you get on - PH needs more pre-war RR and Bentley content!
If you'd like to see the experiences of other PHs who own similar pre-war cars, have a look at:
Lord Flashheart's 20/25 Mann Egerton Saloon - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
ntiz's Bentley 3 litre - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
My 20/25 project - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
My 20HP - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Take care,
AF
Thought I'd share my 2pence worth. I'd love a Blower Bentley too - or anything from the Bentley Cricklewood era (1919 - 1931) but the budget you suggest means that isn't possible - totally out of my league too!
In terms of usability, a later 1930s car will be easier to drive (synchromesh) and have more performance to keep up with modern traffic.
In terms of the more popular cars - I guess it comes down to the Small Horsepower R-R range (20HP, 20/25, 25/30 & Wraith) and the Derby Bentleys (3 1/2 & 4 1/4).
20/25s from March 1932 (GKT 1 onwards) had synchromesh on 3rd and top. As the engines are pretty torquey, you can often start in 2nd, meaning most changes don't need double declutching. Overdrive fitment (from the likes of Tim Payne) allows them to cruise at 55 - 60mph, if everything else is well looked after.
Example:
https://www.realcar.co.uk/view-cars/2502 - for a slightly vintage feel
20/25s can suffer from cracked blocks and heads, so don't be concerned if a car you are interested in has been fitted with replacements. The key is that it was done well and no short cuts. Regular use and maintenance is the best way of keeping these cars in good fettle. Lack of use means things dry out, get sticky and gum up. One thing which looks odd to modern eyes is how oily they should be underneath - they all use a total loss oil lubrication system for the chassis (rather than sealed grease bearings etc), so expect to see oil on the floor of the garage and a light misting all over the chassis, especially at pivots, springs and shackles. Beware of any car which is completely dry - shows lack of use, lubrication and care.
Other useful modifications are the addition of a full flow oil filter to make best use of modern multi grade engine oils, rather than straight mineral oils, which need regular changing (about every 1000 miles).
Lights can be upgraded to make the cars more visible and useable at night too.
The Derby Bentleys offer a more sporting driving experience. As a sports car engineered by Rolls-Royce, they are a very sweet thing to drive. Created after the acquisition of the brankrupt Bentley Motors Ltd in 1931, they made use of R-Rs in-house project developments for a smaller sportier Rolls-Royce.
Example:
https://www.realcar.co.uk/view-cars/2553
The 3 1/2 and later 4 1/4 are very well regarded and are celebrating their 90th Anniversary this year with a big get together, later in September at Chatsworth House.
As with any car from the 20s and 30s, it is probably best to either buy one as a complete ground up project (my route) or the best condition one you can find, with someone else having paid the bills. The cars are mechanically very robust, able to rack up huge mileages, but renewing lots of worn out parts is expensive. Body and trim condition is also key as rectifying these can be expensive too.
It then comes down to find one which really appeals - a combination of which style, coachbuilder and colour combination floats your boat.
There are some excellent options, should you go looking at cars are the following dealers - Real Car Company, Frank Dale & Stepsons, Vintage and Prestige, Jonathan Wood.
Auctions can also provide a cheaper route in, but you really need to know what you are looking at and where the issues might be. Since you can't test drive them or have very little comeback if they aren't as described, they are much higher risk.
There are plenty of cars out there in the price range you specified - I'd really suggest finding a few you like, go drive them and see what you like.
And, if you haven't already, join the RREC. This covers all R-Rs and Bentleys built from 1931 - the private forum is an absolute mine of information, with very knowledgeable people willing to share what they have learnt. The club runs a good selection of events, with regional get togethers etc. It also holds an amazing archive of records - original factory order sheets for every car built, drawings etc.
Good luck and please keep us updated on how you get on - PH needs more pre-war RR and Bentley content!
If you'd like to see the experiences of other PHs who own similar pre-war cars, have a look at:
Lord Flashheart's 20/25 Mann Egerton Saloon - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
ntiz's Bentley 3 litre - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
My 20/25 project - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
My 20HP - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Take care,
AF
Edited by andyfeaver on Monday 4th September 10:01
Edited by andyfeaver on Monday 4th September 19:49
Edited by andyfeaver on Monday 4th September 19:50
Thanks for incredibly detailed reply. I have just come back from viewing one and have to say rather blown away by it. In excellent condition for the age and with a few bits of bodywork requiring work - one wing has cracked paint and a couple of small blisters appearing.
I’m sorely tempted by it but need to consider the logistics of making space for her (my very understanding wife has said no to extracars until I sell some, so need to consider what I would swap out).
I’m sorely tempted by it but need to consider the logistics of making space for her (my very understanding wife has said no to extracars until I sell some, so need to consider what I would swap out).
Hi OP
Modern fueling doesn't pose too many problems for 1920s and 1930s R-Rs and Bentleys. Based on the design of the engines, the compression ratios used etc, there is no issue with running these cars on modern unleaded fuel.
From some reading I have done on the subject, my conclusions are:
- Keep an eye on the valve clearances - to check that you aren't getting any valve seat recession (esp on cars with replacement aluminium heads)
- Use 97/98 octane fuel (E5 protection grade) - to avoid the effects of E10 on cars which are not run everyday - > this can furr up and corrode the fuel tank and the autovac. Most of the comments I have seen on this are from my "other love" - Jaguars - but I will not be using anything other than protection grade on mine, unless in an absolute crisis.
- Additives can help - Castrol Valvemaster was tested by the FBHVC as being fit for purpose.
For some more detailed reading, here is the former head of engines at Rolls Royce on the effects of lead in fuel:
https://rroc.org.au/library/unleaded/kelee.html
- There also may be some benefit to having your Autovac modified for modern fuels (Robin Cooke at Autovac is the man to discuss this with) - modern fuels foam more and there is a tendancy for fuel to be drawn up the suction line into the intake manifold, making things run a bit rich. But this is a small modification, many cars will not have had this done.
Other than that, it will be the usual fun of getting the car to run well on the carburettor(s) when cold and hot.....
Hope this allays too many fears!
AF
Modern fueling doesn't pose too many problems for 1920s and 1930s R-Rs and Bentleys. Based on the design of the engines, the compression ratios used etc, there is no issue with running these cars on modern unleaded fuel.
From some reading I have done on the subject, my conclusions are:
- Keep an eye on the valve clearances - to check that you aren't getting any valve seat recession (esp on cars with replacement aluminium heads)
- Use 97/98 octane fuel (E5 protection grade) - to avoid the effects of E10 on cars which are not run everyday - > this can furr up and corrode the fuel tank and the autovac. Most of the comments I have seen on this are from my "other love" - Jaguars - but I will not be using anything other than protection grade on mine, unless in an absolute crisis.
- Additives can help - Castrol Valvemaster was tested by the FBHVC as being fit for purpose.
For some more detailed reading, here is the former head of engines at Rolls Royce on the effects of lead in fuel:
https://rroc.org.au/library/unleaded/kelee.html
- There also may be some benefit to having your Autovac modified for modern fuels (Robin Cooke at Autovac is the man to discuss this with) - modern fuels foam more and there is a tendancy for fuel to be drawn up the suction line into the intake manifold, making things run a bit rich. But this is a small modification, many cars will not have had this done.
Other than that, it will be the usual fun of getting the car to run well on the carburettor(s) when cold and hot.....
Hope this allays too many fears!
AF
Edited by andyfeaver on Monday 4th September 20:25
Does it have to be Bentley or Rolls Royce?
When we were searching for our 3 litre we thought we had missed the boat with the prices. We started looking for the next best thing that we could afford. There are some cracking cars out there in your budget.
Riley Brooklands
MG K3
Lagonda 2 litre and 4.5
Amilcar
Just off the top of my head. Lots of interesting specials out there as well some bloody fast if you are into that side of things.
Happy to offer any advice or answer any questions on ownership.
When we were searching for our 3 litre we thought we had missed the boat with the prices. We started looking for the next best thing that we could afford. There are some cracking cars out there in your budget.
Riley Brooklands
MG K3
Lagonda 2 litre and 4.5
Amilcar
Just off the top of my head. Lots of interesting specials out there as well some bloody fast if you are into that side of things.
Happy to offer any advice or answer any questions on ownership.
ntiz said:
Does it have to be Bentley or Rolls Royce?
When we were searching for our 3 litre we thought we had missed the boat with the prices. We started looking for the next best thing that we could afford. There are some cracking cars out there in your budget.
Indeed. Don't overlook Alvis. Fast, innovative engineering, full synchro.....When we were searching for our 3 litre we thought we had missed the boat with the prices. We started looking for the next best thing that we could afford. There are some cracking cars out there in your budget.
Hi W12GT, following on from the superb posts previously, there are some lovely cars currently on the stock list at V&P Cars in Northampton, one being a lovely 1929 20hp, that is fitted with an overdrive at the 44 k price, if you are still considering a prewar Rolls. They have some nice Bentley models too, Richard is a sound chap to deal with too, good luck with your searchng, there are plenty out there.
Hi W12GT, that's a great shame that you missed the car,but that's a he'll of a mark up. I know it can happen, there are plenty of cars available at the moment, are you purposely looking at Rolls Royce/Bentley, or any vintage marque. I'm looking on car&classic website, some nice cars at good prices. I can probably guess the company that you're referring to, I'm thinking it's the same one where I got mine from, which is no the best purchase I've made sadly,I wish you well, patience is a virtue.
Hope you do get to sort something suitable soon.
I had a similar itch for a Cricklewood Bentley and was lucky to get my hands on this. Its actually on a 20/25 chassis with a 4.5L Bentley engine from an R Type so its totally fake but I love it to bits and would drive it every day if I could.
I had a similar itch for a Cricklewood Bentley and was lucky to get my hands on this. Its actually on a 20/25 chassis with a 4.5L Bentley engine from an R Type so its totally fake but I love it to bits and would drive it every day if I could.
Edited by papple on Wednesday 20th December 18:23
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