Discussion
ok guys im need of some advice/help, i have recently purchased a Mini cooper S convertible which has proved to be a nightmare since day 1 and need to know if there is any thing i can do to better my situation.
So i bought the car privately 6 weeks ago from the cars 3rd owner it is a 06 plate and only 60'000 on the clock, the car looked in great condition externally ( i no very little about the mechanicals but after doing number plate checks all seemed well. Within the first week the engine warning light came on much to my horror so i quickly took it to my local garage (not the dealers) i was informed that the car was in a bad way and needed ignition coil pack and leads, new spark plugs, both power steering pipes, power steering fluid, general service and a few general wear and tear items totalling £1341! Not the id wanted at all!
A day later the engine warning light returned!! i took it straight back the garage and after some more investigation they mention the cylinder 1 may be broken/faulty but it needs a bigger garage to remove the engine and inspect(basically they gave up and sent me else where.
After spending a quater of the price of the car to fix/not fix the issue so far i decided to take it to the main dealer to get the job done officially. I was informed the injector was faulty and the ignition cables had a leak hence causing the issues, so gave the go ahead to perform the work..........2 days later i got a call that it was not the case and they also now think the cylinder may be broken and would need to remove the engine to continue the work. by now i was being quoted another thousand in work so half the price of the car and id only had it 3 weeks! On removing the engine they discovered that the cylinder was actually fine and instead the piston was chipped apparently caused when the injector broke. so new piston was ordered now up to 3k quoted in repairs!
It was at this point when fitting that the garage noticed they didn't fit the engine in the car.....after investigating they found the the engine is actually a replacement from a cooper! and not that on the documents!!
So guys may i ask for your help with this situation please,
Do i have a leg to stand on in regards to the purchase of a car in this condition?
Is it illegal not to state on the paperwork that the engine has been replaced?
how can i track which owner did this as the guy i bought it from swears he knew nothing?
Should i have a bill with the dealership now as they performed work on a engine for a car that id have thought they should be able to spot straight away was not the correct one?
Also what do i do now? i have a huge bill....a engine less car (still at the dealers) ....they have offered me 1k for it but it doesn't even cover my bill
PLEASE HELPPPPPPPP
So i bought the car privately 6 weeks ago from the cars 3rd owner it is a 06 plate and only 60'000 on the clock, the car looked in great condition externally ( i no very little about the mechanicals but after doing number plate checks all seemed well. Within the first week the engine warning light came on much to my horror so i quickly took it to my local garage (not the dealers) i was informed that the car was in a bad way and needed ignition coil pack and leads, new spark plugs, both power steering pipes, power steering fluid, general service and a few general wear and tear items totalling £1341! Not the id wanted at all!
A day later the engine warning light returned!! i took it straight back the garage and after some more investigation they mention the cylinder 1 may be broken/faulty but it needs a bigger garage to remove the engine and inspect(basically they gave up and sent me else where.
After spending a quater of the price of the car to fix/not fix the issue so far i decided to take it to the main dealer to get the job done officially. I was informed the injector was faulty and the ignition cables had a leak hence causing the issues, so gave the go ahead to perform the work..........2 days later i got a call that it was not the case and they also now think the cylinder may be broken and would need to remove the engine to continue the work. by now i was being quoted another thousand in work so half the price of the car and id only had it 3 weeks! On removing the engine they discovered that the cylinder was actually fine and instead the piston was chipped apparently caused when the injector broke. so new piston was ordered now up to 3k quoted in repairs!
It was at this point when fitting that the garage noticed they didn't fit the engine in the car.....after investigating they found the the engine is actually a replacement from a cooper! and not that on the documents!!
So guys may i ask for your help with this situation please,
Do i have a leg to stand on in regards to the purchase of a car in this condition?
Is it illegal not to state on the paperwork that the engine has been replaced?
how can i track which owner did this as the guy i bought it from swears he knew nothing?
Should i have a bill with the dealership now as they performed work on a engine for a car that id have thought they should be able to spot straight away was not the correct one?
Also what do i do now? i have a huge bill....a engine less car (still at the dealers) ....they have offered me 1k for it but it doesn't even cover my bill
PLEASE HELPPPPPPPP
It sounds like you are getting some extremely 'dodgy' advice from somewhere. The difference between the Cooper engine and the Cooper S engine is fundamental. The S has a thumping great supercharger attached to it.....
To more or less strip the engine and then notice it did not have a supercharger fitted sounds dodgy in the extreme. Did you HPI the car before buying? Engine numbers probably did not match the registration documents if that is the case.
Do you have any pictures of the car/ engine bay which may provide some explanation? Does the V5C confirm it as a Cooper S. What is the registration number - someone will be able to then check with the DVLA (blank out any sensitive bits.....)
Unfortunately as a private buyer you have no real comeback from the seller (unless they were selling stolen goods, in which case they would be long gone by now......)
Something does not feel quite right about what information the garage are feeding to you.....
Mike
To more or less strip the engine and then notice it did not have a supercharger fitted sounds dodgy in the extreme. Did you HPI the car before buying? Engine numbers probably did not match the registration documents if that is the case.
Do you have any pictures of the car/ engine bay which may provide some explanation? Does the V5C confirm it as a Cooper S. What is the registration number - someone will be able to then check with the DVLA (blank out any sensitive bits.....)
Unfortunately as a private buyer you have no real comeback from the seller (unless they were selling stolen goods, in which case they would be long gone by now......)
Something does not feel quite right about what information the garage are feeding to you.....
Mike
Apparently the supercharger was still in the car but fitted badly to to cooper engine, Im going to the garage to find out more tomorrow regarding the engine number etc.
As for the paper work and dvla check it has no record of a engine change and any checks came back clean. the registration is wg06dkd (no use blanking it the poor thing seems pretty dead now)
This is the alarming thing to me also to get so far into the engine and then realise its the wrong engine seems a bit drastic, do you not need the engine number etc to order parts?
I no im clutching at straws and going to be massively out of pocket on this but it seems all a bit ridiculously bad luck
As for the paper work and dvla check it has no record of a engine change and any checks came back clean. the registration is wg06dkd (no use blanking it the poor thing seems pretty dead now)
This is the alarming thing to me also to get so far into the engine and then realise its the wrong engine seems a bit drastic, do you not need the engine number etc to order parts?
I no im clutching at straws and going to be massively out of pocket on this but it seems all a bit ridiculously bad luck
Yes, you must notify the DVLC if the engine is changed:
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registra...
Think it's £1000 fine.
You have very little leverage on a private seller, but the car must still be as described and be road legal:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/cars-an...
An HPI check or RAC/AA inspection would have given you a better idea of the car's history. And this is assuming the garage(s) have not swapped engines by accident - certainly a dodgy seller's first port of call would be for you to prove the engine in question is the one they sold you. I doubt that is something you could prove 100% so it ends up as your word verses his. In summary, you're stuffed.
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registra...
Think it's £1000 fine.
You have very little leverage on a private seller, but the car must still be as described and be road legal:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/cars-an...
An HPI check or RAC/AA inspection would have given you a better idea of the car's history. And this is assuming the garage(s) have not swapped engines by accident - certainly a dodgy seller's first port of call would be for you to prove the engine in question is the one they sold you. I doubt that is something you could prove 100% so it ends up as your word verses his. In summary, you're stuffed.
t situation, do I pay the bill take the car and get a new engine fitted into it? Or use the car as part payment to the garage and just walk away from it all?votedchimp said:
Apparently the supercharger was still in the car but fitted badly to to cooper engine, Im going to the garage to find out more tomorrow regarding the engine number etc.
As for the paper work and dvla check it has no record of a engine change and any checks came back clean. the registration is wg06dkd (no use blanking it the poor thing seems pretty dead now)
This is the alarming thing to me also to get so far into the engine and then realise its the wrong engine seems a bit drastic, do you not need the engine number etc to order parts?
I no im clutching at straws and going to be massively out of pocket on this but it seems all a bit ridiculously bad luck
If the supercharger is still in the engine, it is more than likely the engine would be that of a Cooper S. To add a supercharger to a Cooper engine is not the work of 5 minutes, though not impossible. As for the paper work and dvla check it has no record of a engine change and any checks came back clean. the registration is wg06dkd (no use blanking it the poor thing seems pretty dead now)
This is the alarming thing to me also to get so far into the engine and then realise its the wrong engine seems a bit drastic, do you not need the engine number etc to order parts?
I no im clutching at straws and going to be massively out of pocket on this but it seems all a bit ridiculously bad luck
The engine number will be hidden behind the supercharger and alternator if it's a Cooper S, or the water pump and alternator if it's a Cooper engine.
Have you a picture of the engine bay?
It depends if you're willing to keep going with the car. A re-conditioned Cooper S engine would cost around £1500 plus ancillaries which you should be able to carry over. That also doesn't include labour.
A complete 2nd hand engine should be no more than about £700 on eBay, but then there's no guarantee that it isn't completely knackered.
The garage offering you £1k seems very stingy to me, it's worth considerably more than that in parts
A complete 2nd hand engine should be no more than about £700 on eBay, but then there's no guarantee that it isn't completely knackered.
The garage offering you £1k seems very stingy to me, it's worth considerably more than that in parts
Sorry no pics of the engine as didnt expect any of this.
So the engine numbers are completely different to that on the paper work, so somebody did a crafty one somewhere along the line
Mini are trying to get me to take a new one instead but i kinda wanna put the work in and replace the engine as the car is in great condition.....bar the engine.....
So the engine numbers are completely different to that on the paper work, so somebody did a crafty one somewhere along the line
Mini are trying to get me to take a new one instead but i kinda wanna put the work in and replace the engine as the car is in great condition.....bar the engine.....
Something seems a little wrong here. When you bought the car did you check the service history, MOT and paperwork? Its seems strange for the the 1st garage to notice all this work suddenly needs doing a and charging you the earth for it.
When the EML came on did they run a diagnostics check? Did the main deal also do this? I would have though the Main Dealer might have noticed when they first got the car the engine would have been from a Cooper not a Cooper S as should be.
Im unsure if its how you have written it but i wonder if things are getting confused?
What ever it seems that you need them to stop chucking parts are the car in the attempt to fix things.
When the EML came on did they run a diagnostics check? Did the main deal also do this? I would have though the Main Dealer might have noticed when they first got the car the engine would have been from a Cooper not a Cooper S as should be.
Im unsure if its how you have written it but i wonder if things are getting confused?
What ever it seems that you need them to stop chucking parts are the car in the attempt to fix things.
If you do decide to cut your loses, you should get a better deal than 1K as the convertible is due for replacement in about 9 months:
http://www.motoringfile.com/2015/03/30/the-mini-co...
Pre-reg Cooper S are selling for about 18-20K at the moment, so 1K is about 5% (i.e. about what you could get off list by hard bargaining). It's a lot easier for them to sell you a new one and pass on the car to a breaker or indy than have it parked in their service bay for several weeks. They tend not to like big jobs as their bread and butter is oil & filter servicing. Several of my local VAG dealers pass on all the larger jobs to a local specialist, so it's better (and cheaper) to go to the specialist direct.
Regarding the use of the engine number to order parts - the dealer would use the VIN and probably wouldn't look too closely at the engine until it came to be time to put it back together.
http://www.motoringfile.com/2015/03/30/the-mini-co...
Pre-reg Cooper S are selling for about 18-20K at the moment, so 1K is about 5% (i.e. about what you could get off list by hard bargaining). It's a lot easier for them to sell you a new one and pass on the car to a breaker or indy than have it parked in their service bay for several weeks. They tend not to like big jobs as their bread and butter is oil & filter servicing. Several of my local VAG dealers pass on all the larger jobs to a local specialist, so it's better (and cheaper) to go to the specialist direct.
Regarding the use of the engine number to order parts - the dealer would use the VIN and probably wouldn't look too closely at the engine until it came to be time to put it back together.
diagnostic was run by the original garage and mini themselves it was apparently only when the new piston didnt fit that they began to dive deeper into the engine numbers etc
Do i argue the bill with mini as i dont see why im paying when the reason i took the car to them as they are the specialists in the car and should be able to tell immediately id have thought.
Im currently trying to get quotes to fit a new engine and take the car from mini and get it done elsewhere but cant get over that mini seem to have made a load of money from me and not really helped at all
Do i argue the bill with mini as i dont see why im paying when the reason i took the car to them as they are the specialists in the car and should be able to tell immediately id have thought.
Im currently trying to get quotes to fit a new engine and take the car from mini and get it done elsewhere but cant get over that mini seem to have made a load of money from me and not really helped at all
"What ever it seems that you need them to stop chucking parts are the car in the attempt to fix things."
Absolutely - it annoys me that garages can spend your money on attempting to fix things, and even if it does not make any difference at all you are still expected to pay. It means that they don't need to look beyond the diagnostic codes and a lookup table to the parts bin, rather than spending time correctly diagnosing the issue.
You look at the original post and both garages follow the same path - ignition system, then cylinder scoring and later the piston. Any bets as to whether the order in the fault code "what could be wrong" table, based on statistical probability, is in that order?
To the OP, I think you will need to pay the MINI dealer. See what you can do on goodwill - going for a new or pre-reg car could help. They have after all spent time pulling out the engine; they can return the parts to stock but that will be minimal compared to the labour charges.
I know it's bolting the stable door, but it could be worth an inspection to check the rest of the car is original and not a cut and shut. If it is the latter then take up the dealer's offer.
Absolutely - it annoys me that garages can spend your money on attempting to fix things, and even if it does not make any difference at all you are still expected to pay. It means that they don't need to look beyond the diagnostic codes and a lookup table to the parts bin, rather than spending time correctly diagnosing the issue.
You look at the original post and both garages follow the same path - ignition system, then cylinder scoring and later the piston. Any bets as to whether the order in the fault code "what could be wrong" table, based on statistical probability, is in that order?
To the OP, I think you will need to pay the MINI dealer. See what you can do on goodwill - going for a new or pre-reg car could help. They have after all spent time pulling out the engine; they can return the parts to stock but that will be minimal compared to the labour charges.
I know it's bolting the stable door, but it could be worth an inspection to check the rest of the car is original and not a cut and shut. If it is the latter then take up the dealer's offer.
What is the number on the engine?
What colour are the injectors?
The outside casting is the same as the S so bolting on all the parts is quite an easy task. Cylinder 1 is a common failure point for the S.
I know there are very many minis running different engines to what they rolled out the factory with, the numbers are very difficult to read especially now they have aged.
As for the repair I would be tempted to get another second hand engine and put that in as the car could be sold to cover the costs (just) - I'd do it myself and I could save the cash.
Having to pay someone to finish the car may just make it more expensive to get it all finished even though it is simple enough to sort.
If you purchased it as seen then you are stuck with it, I doubt the issue would have been seen by an inspection before buying and if you got it from a dealer then you need to get them involved although it may be too late
I would offer to buy you out of the situation if you wish to talk about it drop me a contact
What colour are the injectors?
The outside casting is the same as the S so bolting on all the parts is quite an easy task. Cylinder 1 is a common failure point for the S.
I know there are very many minis running different engines to what they rolled out the factory with, the numbers are very difficult to read especially now they have aged.
As for the repair I would be tempted to get another second hand engine and put that in as the car could be sold to cover the costs (just) - I'd do it myself and I could save the cash.
Having to pay someone to finish the car may just make it more expensive to get it all finished even though it is simple enough to sort.
If you purchased it as seen then you are stuck with it, I doubt the issue would have been seen by an inspection before buying and if you got it from a dealer then you need to get them involved although it may be too late
I would offer to buy you out of the situation if you wish to talk about it drop me a contact
Edited by RKDE on Sunday 28th June 12:18
I think the differences between the engines are pistons and crank, which neither garage can obviously see, hence why the latter garage raised concerns on piston fitment.
However, the first garage ripped you off, instead of attending to the original problem, sold you stuff you didn't need at that point. You may have had the requirement to deal with other things that could have just been reported to you, but not urgently required when there for another specific fault. The pas pipes are common, and can be cleaned off and topped up for review later.
You unfortunately just rolled over and paid, not querying the resolution of the only reason you first went, so have to bear that, however, they should explain their attitude in resolving other faults before that reported by the customer, and refund you some of the labour in my opinion, as they have had you. Even if the car is in a better state in some areas, but how can you service a knackered engine? If it has a piston problem, it would have remained apparent after they swapped a coil and leads, and those parts clearly haven't remedied the fault, and should also be refunded.
The other garage being a main agent, indeed perhaps may have had a duty to check the engine in the car is the correct engine type W11 rather than W10 I think the code is, which would have saved you further labour. So a conversation is due there too, regarding significant labour costs.
I would fit another engine perhaps, and write the rest of to experience, as the cars are good in general, and letting the car go just gives someone else the same opportunity as you, but where they also make a profit out of you.
If the engine is already apart, speak to the service manager about a deal with further labour, and get another short engine.
The cylinder heads are the same, so you only need a short motor not a complete one.
You may prefer to just abandon it all, but I think you're so far in, and at a point where the solution is in front of you.
Hard to say what's best, especially when reliant on workshops and sales tactics.
However, the first garage ripped you off, instead of attending to the original problem, sold you stuff you didn't need at that point. You may have had the requirement to deal with other things that could have just been reported to you, but not urgently required when there for another specific fault. The pas pipes are common, and can be cleaned off and topped up for review later.
You unfortunately just rolled over and paid, not querying the resolution of the only reason you first went, so have to bear that, however, they should explain their attitude in resolving other faults before that reported by the customer, and refund you some of the labour in my opinion, as they have had you. Even if the car is in a better state in some areas, but how can you service a knackered engine? If it has a piston problem, it would have remained apparent after they swapped a coil and leads, and those parts clearly haven't remedied the fault, and should also be refunded.
The other garage being a main agent, indeed perhaps may have had a duty to check the engine in the car is the correct engine type W11 rather than W10 I think the code is, which would have saved you further labour. So a conversation is due there too, regarding significant labour costs.
I would fit another engine perhaps, and write the rest of to experience, as the cars are good in general, and letting the car go just gives someone else the same opportunity as you, but where they also make a profit out of you.
If the engine is already apart, speak to the service manager about a deal with further labour, and get another short engine.
The cylinder heads are the same, so you only need a short motor not a complete one.
You may prefer to just abandon it all, but I think you're so far in, and at a point where the solution is in front of you.
Hard to say what's best, especially when reliant on workshops and sales tactics.
I would advise on a whole engine rather than a short just because you will still need to buy a head gasket and bolts which will add up. At least with a whole engine you can just throw it in. Though a new gasket would be a nice thing to have and one less worry, may as well do the main crank seal and a new clutch whilst its all out.
That said I am almost sure that if you didn't have a cooper head gasket cylinder 1 would have been fine. Due to the gasket coolant holes you would have been getting very little coolant flow at cylinder 1 and have probably been running very hot.
That said I am almost sure that if you didn't have a cooper head gasket cylinder 1 would have been fine. Due to the gasket coolant holes you would have been getting very little coolant flow at cylinder 1 and have probably been running very hot.
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