The Triathlon thread - Ironman, 70.3, Olympic, Sprint
Discussion
okgo said:
What sort of training does that include? Lots of vo2 max intervals will help bump that FTP!
okgo,Yep, there were lots and lots of VO2 max intervals - it was great fun ;-) Plan is here: http://www.thesufferfest.com/plans/intermediate/
Love the Sufferfest videos - help to make the turbo bearable. Managed a 15% improvement in FTP in 10 weeks which I was pretty pleased with - still a long way to go, but training emphasis has shifted onto endurance in run up to Outlaw in July
croftsj said:
Half Iron here http://www.f3events.co.uk/general/maxifuel-half-ir...
Ah, I think I was confused by the post above mentioning Henley.Dambuster Duathlong training in full swing now. I seem to have picked the advanced training plan so committing a lot of time to it at the moment. I'll have no excuase if I dont hit my target time...
An update, and some progress, of sorts. The "baby steps" variety.
My present to myself on Christmas day was removal of the accursed airboot from my left foot. That thing is about an inch thicker than the sole of my thickest soled shoe, so I've had 5 weeks of my lower back being out of whack which is taking some time to work its way out of my system.
The foot felt a bit tender around the break area and under (I may have nicked the plantar fascia - not sure). And I was warned off running til the end of Jan. However, I've started very gently with 8 min runs every other day. My Newtons are proving a little too uncushioned though, and I've switched to my Hokas which seem to help. The Hokas are less stable though and raise the spectre of another ankle roll, which is not pleasant.
So one way or another I'm heading in the right direction, but bloody hell, it's a going to be a long slow road...
My present to myself on Christmas day was removal of the accursed airboot from my left foot. That thing is about an inch thicker than the sole of my thickest soled shoe, so I've had 5 weeks of my lower back being out of whack which is taking some time to work its way out of my system.
The foot felt a bit tender around the break area and under (I may have nicked the plantar fascia - not sure). And I was warned off running til the end of Jan. However, I've started very gently with 8 min runs every other day. My Newtons are proving a little too uncushioned though, and I've switched to my Hokas which seem to help. The Hokas are less stable though and raise the spectre of another ankle roll, which is not pleasant.
So one way or another I'm heading in the right direction, but bloody hell, it's a going to be a long slow road...
Greg66 said:
An update, and some progress, of sorts. The "baby steps" variety.
My present to myself on Christmas day was removal of the accursed airboot from my left foot. That thing is about an inch thicker than the sole of my thickest soled shoe, so I've had 5 weeks of my lower back being out of whack which is taking some time to work its way out of my system.
The foot felt a bit tender around the break area and under (I may have nicked the plantar fascia - not sure). And I was warned off running til the end of Jan. However, I've started very gently with 8 min runs every other day. My Newtons are proving a little too uncushioned though, and I've switched to my Hokas which seem to help. The Hokas are less stable though and raise the spectre of another ankle roll, which is not pleasant.
So one way or another I'm heading in the right direction, but bloody hell, it's a going to be a long slow road...
Wishing you a speedy and permanent recovery Greg. Is there any way you can do aqua running to take the load off the foot?My present to myself on Christmas day was removal of the accursed airboot from my left foot. That thing is about an inch thicker than the sole of my thickest soled shoe, so I've had 5 weeks of my lower back being out of whack which is taking some time to work its way out of my system.
The foot felt a bit tender around the break area and under (I may have nicked the plantar fascia - not sure). And I was warned off running til the end of Jan. However, I've started very gently with 8 min runs every other day. My Newtons are proving a little too uncushioned though, and I've switched to my Hokas which seem to help. The Hokas are less stable though and raise the spectre of another ankle roll, which is not pleasant.
So one way or another I'm heading in the right direction, but bloody hell, it's a going to be a long slow road...
drgav2005 said:
Wishing you a speedy and permanent recovery Greg. Is there any way you can do aqua running to take the load off the foot?
Cheers, Gav. I suppose I could - this was something open to me for both the stress reactions I had last year. The trouble is that although (or perhaps despite) swimming being my strongest of the three disciplines, I *hate* the process of going swimming. Everything is fine once I'm in the water and have pushed off, but everything leading to that point, I loathe. And I really mean "loathe". Ergo getting to the pool to aqua jog seems a bit of a longshot...!
Greg66 said:
drgav2005 said:
Wishing you a speedy and permanent recovery Greg. Is there any way you can do aqua running to take the load off the foot?
Cheers, Gav. I suppose I could - this was something open to me for both the stress reactions I had last year. The trouble is that although (or perhaps despite) swimming being my strongest of the three disciplines, I *hate* the process of going swimming. Everything is fine once I'm in the water and have pushed off, but everything leading to that point, I loathe. And I really mean "loathe". Ergo getting to the pool to aqua jog seems a bit of a longshot...!Best of luck though and I'll join DrGav in wishing you a speedy recovery!
dangerousB said:
How about jumping on your turbo or a spin bike at the gym? You'll be able to challenge your aerobic system whilst putting pressure through your foot without the impact that running will entail . . . either that or just get into the gym and get stretching, or work on your hamstrings and quads for when the foot's better.
Best of luck though and I'll join DrGav in wishing you a speedy recovery!
Cheers, dB!Best of luck though and I'll join DrGav in wishing you a speedy recovery!
I've been turbo'ing a bit. Somewhere on FB there's a photo of me taken by Mrs 66; I'm in bike kit with my finisher's jacket on, plus the airboot, all ready to tackle the turbo. Although it never really hurt to pedal, getting the shoe on and off, mounting and dismounting (at some point I had to have all my weight on it) and unclipping weren't very pleasant. Now I'm back to riding normally, so that's something.
Anyway, today was another small breakthrough in the "small steps" world: first consecutive day of running. Still only 8 mins each day, but right now it's about whether it reacts adversely. Seems ok, if a little sore this pm, so I will lay off it tomorrow and repeat on Sat. Small steps indeed...
The plan is to get myself able to start what's known on Slowtwitch as the BarryP plan - recommended as a good way to avoid injury *and* build speed. If I weren't about to go to sleep, I'd tell you all about it....zzzzzzzzz...
Would you believe it - 4 days after my last post wishing Greg a speedy recovery, BOOM! Injury strikes me! 
Not sure exactly what it's been, but it's had the feel of a tendon/ligament in my hip, certainly top of the femur area anyway. Imagine doing a knee extension and whatever's doing the work in that area has been unusably painful! Usual thing of doing too much, too soon I think - I really should know better!
Fast forward 2 and a bit weeks and today's the first day I've walked upstairs without feeling like I need a hip replacement!!!
Two weeks off has felt like an eternity - made me wonder how your recovery's going Greg how's everyone elses training going?
Not sure exactly what it's been, but it's had the feel of a tendon/ligament in my hip, certainly top of the femur area anyway. Imagine doing a knee extension and whatever's doing the work in that area has been unusably painful! Usual thing of doing too much, too soon I think - I really should know better!
Fast forward 2 and a bit weeks and today's the first day I've walked upstairs without feeling like I need a hip replacement!!!
Two weeks off has felt like an eternity - made me wonder how your recovery's going Greg how's everyone elses training going?
dangerousB said:
Would you believe it - 4 days after my last post wishing Greg a speedy recovery, BOOM! Injury strikes me!
Not sure exactly what it's been, but it's had the feel of a tendon/ligament in my hip, certainly top of the femur area anyway. Imagine doing a knee extension and whatever's doing the work in that area has been unusably painful! Usual thing of doing too much, too soon I think - I really should know better!
Fast forward 2 and a bit weeks and today's the first day I've walked upstairs without feeling like I need a hip replacement!!!
Two weeks off has felt like an eternity - made me wonder how your recovery's going Greg how's everyone elses training going?
Hard luck on the injury that sounds painful, I've just had a week off with a particularly nasty cough/cold so I feel your pain. A week felt ridiculously long. Thankfully running tuesday, and an hour on the rollers yesterday still felt decent so I don't think its knocked me back too much. Looking forward to cracking on with the rest of my early training. Contemplating doing an early season Duathlon next weekend as well if the race course isn't underwater! Not sure exactly what it's been, but it's had the feel of a tendon/ligament in my hip, certainly top of the femur area anyway. Imagine doing a knee extension and whatever's doing the work in that area has been unusably painful! Usual thing of doing too much, too soon I think - I really should know better!
Fast forward 2 and a bit weeks and today's the first day I've walked upstairs without feeling like I need a hip replacement!!!
Two weeks off has felt like an eternity - made me wonder how your recovery's going Greg how's everyone elses training going?
dangerousB said:
Would you believe it - 4 days after my last post wishing Greg a speedy recovery, BOOM! Injury strikes me!
Not sure exactly what it's been, but it's had the feel of a tendon/ligament in my hip, certainly top of the femur area anyway. Imagine doing a knee extension and whatever's doing the work in that area has been unusably painful! Usual thing of doing too much, too soon I think - I really should know better!
Fast forward 2 and a bit weeks and today's the first day I've walked upstairs without feeling like I need a hip replacement!!!
Two weeks off has felt like an eternity - made me wonder how your recovery's going Greg how's everyone elses training going?
Doh! Sorry to hear that. Not sure exactly what it's been, but it's had the feel of a tendon/ligament in my hip, certainly top of the femur area anyway. Imagine doing a knee extension and whatever's doing the work in that area has been unusably painful! Usual thing of doing too much, too soon I think - I really should know better!
Fast forward 2 and a bit weeks and today's the first day I've walked upstairs without feeling like I need a hip replacement!!!
Two weeks off has felt like an eternity - made me wonder how your recovery's going Greg how's everyone elses training going?
Take it easy on the comeback - I know 2 weeks feels like an eternity but you'll get that fitness back no problem.
Greg & Dangerous - hope the recoveries are going well. With less than 3 weeks to the Dambuster Duathlon plans were to get 4 decent 10k runs done in the next two weeks (Have only run more than 5k twice this year so far) - but woke up at 3.45 this morning shivering & ended up getting in a sleeping bag under my duvet before I felt warm again, still feel like crap & hope I can shift this in a day or two. Guess this means a few days off & probably no 10k runs at all this week - Bugger !
I'm now back into my fourth week of running. I started at 8/16/8/16/8/24 mins over six days, and have upped the base unit by 1 min per week, so now at 11/22 etc. it feels very weird running for such short distances and is obviously giving little cv benefit. But it is all about building form and allowing steady adaptation to loading - something my cv fitness last year allowed me to bypass completely to my ultimate cost.
What is also weird is the amount of ache and pain I have had! My MT now doesn't play up at all, but was a bit achy to begin with. That came with a tenderness underneath the MT (a nicked tendon?) which has also now gone. Plus two weeks of crunched outside of the ankles - like I had jumped off a roof onto a concrete floor - first right, then left, now gone. Plus various complaining tendons extending down my lower leg from my knee. All stuff I've had from time to time before over the years, but never all at once! Anyway, for once running through it seems to have been the right thing to do.
The trouble I now have is psychological: I can't quite bring myself to hit the turbo trainer big time until I am fairly sure my legs and foot are going to hold up. That means another couple of weeks (on the basis that stress FXs/reactions can take three weeks from loading to come out); and then I still want to know that I can run a good 45 mins without side effects, and that's quite a way off right now.
And I'm not hitting the pool until I really have to, which I can shave down to 4 weeks pre race if need be. So I suppose for once I am training to my weaknesses rather than my strengths. Feels odd though.
And the other thing that is odd is adjusting mentally to the low volumes early season (except with a first race in May, I'm not early season any more - gulp!). It's so tempting to think of the high volume weeks at the end of an IM programme as normal, which they really, really aren't.
What is also weird is the amount of ache and pain I have had! My MT now doesn't play up at all, but was a bit achy to begin with. That came with a tenderness underneath the MT (a nicked tendon?) which has also now gone. Plus two weeks of crunched outside of the ankles - like I had jumped off a roof onto a concrete floor - first right, then left, now gone. Plus various complaining tendons extending down my lower leg from my knee. All stuff I've had from time to time before over the years, but never all at once! Anyway, for once running through it seems to have been the right thing to do.
The trouble I now have is psychological: I can't quite bring myself to hit the turbo trainer big time until I am fairly sure my legs and foot are going to hold up. That means another couple of weeks (on the basis that stress FXs/reactions can take three weeks from loading to come out); and then I still want to know that I can run a good 45 mins without side effects, and that's quite a way off right now.
And I'm not hitting the pool until I really have to, which I can shave down to 4 weeks pre race if need be. So I suppose for once I am training to my weaknesses rather than my strengths. Feels odd though.
And the other thing that is odd is adjusting mentally to the low volumes early season (except with a first race in May, I'm not early season any more - gulp!). It's so tempting to think of the high volume weeks at the end of an IM programme as normal, which they really, really aren't.
Just signed up for the Chatsworth Triathlon in July. This will be my second event. Excited.
Can you explain how this type of training works and what you hope it will develop? Also, are you running at ten tenths for these durations or moderating speed?
Greg66 said:
I'm now back into my fourth week of running. I started at 8/16/8/16/8/24 mins over six days, and have upped the base unit by 1 min per week, so now at 11/22 etc. it feels very weird running for such short distances and is obviously giving little cv benefit. But it is all about building form and allowing steady adaptation to loading - something my cv fitness last year allowed me to bypass completely to my ultimate cost.
I am not well versed in the world of fitness training but want to improve my running stamina and endurance. Can you explain how this type of training works and what you hope it will develop? Also, are you running at ten tenths for these durations or moderating speed?
Hoddo said:
I am not well versed in the world of fitness training but want to improve my running stamina and endurance.
Can you explain how this type of training works and what you hope it will develop? Also, are you running at ten tenths for these durations or moderating speed?
I'll try, but the better resource (which is where I cribbed the plan) is slowtwitch.com. Go to the forums and find the BarryP running plan. There are at least a dozen long and detailed posts/articles by that chap, describing this plan, with lots of Q&A between other posters. Can you explain how this type of training works and what you hope it will develop? Also, are you running at ten tenths for these durations or moderating speed?
How it is supposed to work: The idea, I think, is that if you run regularly you body will naturally find the most efficient style for you to run. Stand at the 25 mile mark in any marathon at 3 -4 hours after the start and you will see a whole variety of running styles, all of which are working pretty well for their users.
Secondly, it is designed to limit your chances of getting injured. Most people (and this includes me) who are training for a distance event regard running to that distance in training as a goal to be achieved rapidly. The result can be that your long run ramps up rapidly; much faster than your stamina/fitness does; and so you end up running a sizeable chunk of it on tired legs which are reinforcing bad form/habits and potentially creating injuries. Garbage yardage, in other words.
Each week you increase volume by a max of 10%, so (in mins) 10/20/10/20/10/30 notches up to 11/22/11/22/11/36. I admit that at the sub 10 min for the base unit level I moved up in increments of 1 min rather than 10%. I think there is nothing to prevent you from "holding" at a level for a few weeks, and (though I am not sure about this) also loading all you additional time onto your long 3 unit run, if you are targeting longer distances.
How they are supposed to be run: IIRC, the long run is a long slow run to build endurance. The three short runs are all much more focussed on form than anything else. They are essentially extended technique drills. The two medium runs are tempo. If you're going to build speed, these are the sessions to do it in.
My objective is to build my endurance firstly, and speed secondly (distantly second, as I am a bit of a one trick pony when it comes to speed), without overstressing my recovering 5th MT, creating stress FXs in the adjacent MTs (a common problem in recovery, I am told), and avoiding a repetition of stress FXs I had in my femurs last year.
Last year I was following a 1:1:2 pattern: two equal timed runs in the week and a long run at the weekend of at least twice that duration - eg 1 hour, 1 hour, 2+ hours. I had the cv fitness to allow me to do this, but having not been able to do much running I was able to ramp up the mileages/times far far faster than my lower body form was able to sustain itself for those durations. Net effect was a gradual descent into stress FXs.
As my physio said, stress FXs and other injuries are more commonly seen in cyclists and rowers who take up running than any other group, because their cv systems allow them to run far longer than is a good idea for their legs/hips.
The idea of the plan is more or less to simulate being an unfit person - if you were to start at 5/10/5/10/5/15 mins, that's really very little distance per session or in total. But if you concentrate on your form, you lay much more effective groundwork for the months ahead. That said, I found it, and still find it, quite hard to slot into good form from the first step, and if you're only running for 5 mins, it can be a good way into the run before you settle into your form.
This week I'm on 12/24/12/24/12/36. So far, so good. The main problem I've had is that I'm having to do all my runs on pavements, which I'm supposed to avoid, because the grass is waterlogged. It was a slip on muddy ground and a rolled ankle that broke my 5th MT.
FWIW, on a different point there's a very interesting article/video analysis on the net if you google "gazelles vs gliders". It was helpful for me to realise that I'm never going to run like Mo Farah, but unless I want to run sub 2h 50 for a marathon (haha) I needn't worry about it.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 28th February 12:01
Greg66 said:
Hoddo said:
I am not well versed in the world of fitness training but want to improve my running stamina and endurance.
Can you explain how this type of training works and what you hope it will develop? Also, are you running at ten tenths for these durations or moderating speed?
I'll try, but the better resource (which is where I cribbed the plan) is slowtwitch.com. Go to the forums and find the BarryP running plan. There are at least a dozen long and detailed posts/articles by that chap, describing this plan, with lots of Q&A between other posters. Can you explain how this type of training works and what you hope it will develop? Also, are you running at ten tenths for these durations or moderating speed?
How it is supposed to work: The idea, I think, is that if you run regularly you body will naturally find the most efficient style for you to run. Stand at the 25 mile mark in any marathon at 3 -4 hours after the start and you will see a whole variety of running styles, all of which are working pretty well for their users.
Secondly, it is designed to limit your chances of getting injured. Most people (and this includes me) who are training for a distance event regard running to that distance in training as a goal to be achieved rapidly. The result can be that your long run ramps up rapidly; much faster than your stamina/fitness does; and so you end up running a sizeable chunk of it on tired legs which are reinforcing bad form/habits and potentially creating injuries. Garbage yardage, in other words.
Each week you increase volume by a max of 10%, so (in mins) 10/20/10/20/10/30 notches up to 11/22/11/22/11/36. I admit that at the sub 10 min for the base unit level I moved up in increments of 1 min rather than 10%. I think there is nothing to prevent you from "holding" at a level for a few weeks, and (though I am not sure about this) also loading all you additional time onto your long 3 unit run, if you are targeting longer distances.
How they are supposed to be run: IIRC, the long run is a long slow run to build endurance. The three short runs are all much more focussed on form than anything else. They are essentially extended technique drills. The two medium runs are tempo. If you're going to build speed, these are the sessions to do it in.
My objective is to build my endurance firstly, and speed secondly (distantly second, as I am a bit of a one trick pony when it comes to speed), without overstressing my recovering 5th MT, creating stress FXs in the adjacent MTs (a common problem in recovery, I am told), and avoiding a repetition of stress FXs I had in my femurs last year.
Last year I was following a 1:1:2 pattern: two equal timed runs in the week and a long run at the weekend of at least twice that duration - eg 1 hour, 1 hour, 2+ hours. I had the cv fitness to allow me to do this, but having not been able to do much running I was able to ramp up the mileages/times far far faster than my lower body form was able to sustain itself for those durations. Net effect was a gradual descent into stress FXs.
As my physio said, stress FXs and other injuries are more commonly seen in cyclists and rowers who take up running than any other group, because their cv systems allow them to run far longer than is a good idea for their legs/hips.
The idea of the plan is more or less to simulate being an unfit person - if you were to start at 5/10/5/10/5/15 mins, that's really very little distance per session or in total. But if you concentrate on your form, you lay much more effective groundwork for the months ahead. That said, I found it, and still find it, quite hard to slot into good form from the first step, and if you're only running for 5 mins, it can be a good way into the run before you settle into your form.
This week I'm on 12/24/12/24/12/36. So far, so good. The main problem I've had is that I'm having to do all my runs on pavements, which I'm supposed to avoid, because the grass is waterlogged. It was a slip on muddy ground and a rolled ankle that broke my 5th MT.
FWIW, on a different point there's a very interesting article/video analysis on the net if you google "gazelles vs gliders". It was helpful for me to realise that I'm never going to run like Mo Farah, but unless I want to run sub 2h 50 for a marathon (haha) I needn't worry about it.
Greg66 said:
How they are supposed to be run: IIRC, the long run is a long slow run to build endurance. The three short runs are all much more focussed on form than anything else. They are essentially extended technique drills. The two medium runs are tempo. If you're going to build speed, these are the sessions to do it in.
This is where I need advice. How does one know if your form and technique are correct?When you say tempo, do you mean build speed and try to maintain that speed for the duration of the run?
Greg66 said:
"gazelles vs gliders"
Should be a third option "plodding ape"Hoddo said:
Greg66 said:
How they are supposed to be run: IIRC, the long run is a long slow run to build endurance. The three short runs are all much more focussed on form than anything else. They are essentially extended technique drills. The two medium runs are tempo. If you're going to build speed, these are the sessions to do it in.
This is where I need advice. How does one know if your form and technique are correct?When you say tempo, do you mean build speed and try to maintain that speed for the duration of the run?
Single biggest thing for me was working out that my feet were supposed to hit the ground under my hips, and not in front of them. That made moving (over an 18m period) from a heel strike forward of my hips to a mid foot strike under them a move worth making.
And tempo, at least as far as I am concerned, means just below the line that marks the divide between "moderate discomfort" and "don't like this", and being able to hold that for the duration of the distance.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 28th February 13:40
Hoddo said:
This is where I need advice. How does one know if your form and technique are correct?
The basic principle is that everything should be moving parallel to your direction of travel, so no flailing arms or feet out to the side 
However, changing your natural form is usually a long and difficult process. If you can run a decent distance without getting injured then your form is probably OK. As above, there are so many running styles that people are successful with that trying to change from a comfortable, natural style can be more trouble than it's worth. You'll generally see much bigger improvements by gaining fitness through long runs, tempo/threshold runs, intervals and overall mileage than by changing style.Of course, if there's a problem or imbalance that is causing pain/retricted movement/injury then sorting that out is important.
ewenm said:
Hoddo said:
This is where I need advice. How does one know if your form and technique are correct?
The basic principle is that everything should be moving parallel to your direction of travel, so no flailing arms or feet out to the side However, changing your natural form is usually a long and difficult process. If you can run a decent distance without getting injured then your form is probably OK. As above, there are so many running styles that people are successful with that trying to change from a comfortable, natural style can be more trouble than it's worth. You'll generally see much bigger improvements by gaining fitness through long runs, tempo/threshold runs, intervals and overall mileage than by changing style.Of course, if there's a problem or imbalance that is causing pain/retricted movement/injury then sorting that out is important.
Thank you for the information. My goal is a simple one, get my 5k triathlon time down.
Hoddo said:
My goal is a simple one, get my 5k triathlon time down.
Key session for improving 5k times in my experience:6 x 1k efforts at or just faster than target 5k pace, with 50% of the effort time as recovery between each. For example, if your target 5k time is 25 mins, that's 5 mins/km meaning the session would be 1k in 5 mins, 2:30 walk/jog recovery, repeat for 6 efforts.
Progression comes in adding a couple more reps, dropping the recovery a bit, or going a bit faster (or any combination of those). The idea being pushing your body at or above target pace for longer than race distance but with recoveries.
Greg66 said:
Hoddo said:
Greg66 said:
How they are supposed to be run: IIRC, the long run is a long slow run to build endurance. The three short runs are all much more focussed on form than anything else. They are essentially extended technique drills. The two medium runs are tempo. If you're going to build speed, these are the sessions to do it in.
This is where I need advice. How does one know if your form and technique are correct?When you say tempo, do you mean build speed and try to maintain that speed for the duration of the run?
Single biggest thing for me was working out that my feet were supposed to hit the ground under my hips, and not in front of them. That made moving (over an 18m period) from a heel strike forward of my hips to a mid foot strike under them a move worth making.
And tempo, at least as far as I am concerned, means just below the line that marks the divide between "moderate discomfort" and "don't like this", and being able to hold that for the duration of the distance.
Your feet are supposed to hit the ground under your hips?!?! Sitting at my desk it is hard to visualise where my feet do land but I'd bet it is forward of my hips. Doing Parkrun tomorrow AM, will have a play and see where they find the ground.
When you describe the change in strike point as a 'move worth making', what benefits did you gain?
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