The Triathlon thread - Ironman, 70.3, Olympic, Sprint

[anonymous-user]

944fan said:

Coach - Check. Have used him a lot for the swimming which has made a massive improvement. He is running the camp next year too. Will start using him more for bike and run and think about attending some of his group track sessions.

Power meter - check. Got the power meter hand book and training and racing with a power meter too. Got premium TrainingPeaks account for analysis. Is the WKO+ software worthwhile?

I think we are talking about two different types of coaching. You're referring to a coach who looks at your swim technique and gives you drills to improve. I'm talking about one who will give you a daily/weekly/monthly periodised training schedule, specifically tailored to improving your ftp, run pace, etc and ultimately race pace. Hence why I left in the PM stuff above - you want someone you tells you exactly what to do with your PM rather than trying to puzzle it out from a book (I've got the same book and WKO+, and coaching is a couple of orders of magnitiude more valuable).

PM me if you want a recommendation (though I'm not 100% sure how much space he has in his roster right now).

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 12th July 08:24

[944fan]

Yeah I do have that type of coach but haven't utilised him fully. I have only used him for the swim technique and plan so far. He did my HIM plan this year which was a structured plan tailored to me (Base / Build / RnR / Peak phases). He also does intensive coaching on training peaks where he uploads sessions each week, I do them and he reviews and tweaks as required - I haven't used that yet.

I read the books because I like to understand the full information behind it and am interested in the science.

Am going to get a plan now to get me through the end of this season and focus on 10k speed and increasing FTP.

Just booking a gait analysis at the physio now.

Thanks for the tips. This is exciting for me to try and whilst I may never achieve it will be good to try it. I love to push myself and see if I can go further than ever before.

[anonymous-user]

944fan said:

Yeah I do have that type of coach but haven't utilised him fully. I have only used him for the swim technique and plan so far. He did my HIM plan this year which was a structured plan tailored to me (Base / Build / RnR / Peak phases). He also does intensive coaching on training peaks where he uploads sessions each week, I do them and he reviews and tweaks as required - I haven't used that yet.

I read the books because I like to understand the full information behind it and am interested in the science.

Am going to get a plan now to get me through the end of this season and focus on 10k speed and increasing FTP.

Just booking a gait analysis at the physio now.

Thanks for the tips. This is exciting for me to try and whilst I may never achieve it will be good to try it. I love to push myself and see if I can go further than ever before.

Good luck!

PS: I thought going down this path would be an interesting voyage of exploration/some "me time"; fk me, it's like having a second full time, high stress job on top of my existing full time, high stress job!

[944fan]

Greg66 said:

Good luck!

PS: I thought going down this path would be an interesting voyage of exploration/some "me time"; fk me, it's like having a second full time, high stress job on top of my existing full time, high stress job!

Cheers

Big part of me doing this is to offset he stress of my main job! Will probably end up wanting to go to work to get away from training.

[a boardman]

Anyone doing the Bolton Ironman I should be on a water station (miles 6,12 & 18) on Chorley road from 12 to 11.

[briangriffin]

Just did 2 parts of long course weekend in Wales this weekend. The 2.4 mile swim and the 112 mile cycle.

Good conditions for the swim, all be it a slight bit of roughness passed the first buoy and most people reporting that the swim was actually 200-400m longer than advertised. It's by far my worst discipline but managed to get round in 1.45 despite a bit of shoulder trouble. Sighting a major issue for more not helped by boats in the line of site of the 2nd buoy, hopefully I can knock 15 minutes off that time by the time of IMW. Do you guys think this is likely?

The cycle couldn't have been in worse conditions, windy and raining target time was in the region of 7 hours but wasn't going to happen due to conditions and got round in just under 7.5 in the end, bonus being that I felt I could run after it and am confident of finding at least an extra 1mph average in better conditions so fingers crossed for September.

Didn't do the run as the advice I've had is its not worth the risk with peak training upcoming. And being my strongest discipline I've got confidence that I can maintain a decent pace on the big day.

One question I do have for the ironman marathon though is what would you guys suggest it does to your normal mile average? I.e. If you'd normall run a marathon at 8 minute miles how much damage does the swim and bike do to that time?

[esuuv]

On the flat - a minute a mile, on a hilly course like Wales - probably more.

I can (when fit) run a 3.30 marathon without too much drama (8 min miles) - last year i did Copenhagen which has a pretty flat run - and went out at 9 minute miles, you feel like you can go so much faster and really have to be strong - do though because if you go to fast it'll bite you later on and it feels a world better to still be going when 3/4 of the field is walking and they will be. I came in under 4 hours for the run and apart from aid stations ran the lot which I was really pleased about.

[944fan]

briangriffin said:

Good conditions for the swim, all be it a slight bit of roughness passed the first buoy and most people reporting that the swim was actually 200-400m longer than advertised. It's by far my worst discipline but managed to get round in 1.45 despite a bit of shoulder trouble. Sighting a major issue for more not helped by boats in the line of site of the 2nd buoy, hopefully I can knock 15 minutes off that time by the time of IMW. Do you guys think this is likely?

Its really hard to say. The difference between 1:45 and 1:30 is 24 seconds per 100m or 6 seconds per lap of a 25m pool. Are you hoping to cut time by swimming better or faster? I mean was it the sighting problem that caused you to go massively off course? If the course was long by 400m and it will be more accurate in the IM then you will drop 10 minutes from that.

A good tip is too look for landmarks on something large behind the buoy you are aiming for. If you are swimming out to sea that will be hard but for others something that stands out in the distance is useful. Firstly it is easier to see so you can swim in a straighter line, secondly you wont have to lift your head out of the water as much and will create less drag.

Draughting another swimmer will save a lot of energy and make you faster. However at your pace be careful that the person you are following can swim in a straight line. Generally, although not always faster swimmers are straighter swimmers. To draught you just swim right up behind them, tickle their toes occasionally. Don't be surprised if you get a kick in return.

If I were you I wouldn't push the swim hard at all. As long as you are within the cut offs you could put in a huge effort to trim a few minutes off the swim and completely balls up your bike and run.

[944fan]

Greg66 - regarding the gait analysis and physio do you have any recommendations? There is a large choice with varying costs.

My local physio does a run assessment which last an hour and they film it, £70. Not much info on the website as to what that entails but seems to be more about coming back after injury

The Running School does a 60 min session for £90 which focuses more on speed as well as injury prevention which is more like what I need.

Then there is Run3D which do a full on 3D Gait & Biomechanical Assessment including 3d filming, strength and flexibility assessments. £300.

I am guessing the Run3D is pretty good but is it worth more than 3 x the other lot?

Any other options?

[anonymous-user]

Alas not. I've figured it out the hard way.

If I were looking stone cold though I think I'd want to speak to some former "students" or whatever the word is to get their feedback.

[944fan]

Greg66 said:

Alas not. I've figured it out the hard way.

If I were looking stone cold though I think I'd want to speak to some former "students" or whatever the word is to get their feedback.

I have asked my coach if he knows anyone or if any of the squad have had something done. I probably should stop being so anti social and go to some of the squad sessions and talk to the other athletes :-)

[briangriffin]

944fan said:

Its really hard to say. The difference between 1:45 and 1:30 is 24 seconds per 100m or 6 seconds per lap of a 25m pool. Are you hoping to cut time by swimming better or faster? I mean was it the sighting problem that caused you to go massively off course? If the course was long by 400m and it will be more accurate in the IM then you will drop 10 minutes from that.

A good tip is too look for landmarks on something large behind the buoy you are aiming for. If you are swimming out to sea that will be hard but for others something that stands out in the distance is useful. Firstly it is easier to see so you can swim in a straighter line, secondly you wont have to lift your head out of the water as much and will create less drag.

Draughting another swimmer will save a lot of energy and make you faster. However at your pace be careful that the person you are following can swim in a straight line. Generally, although not always faster swimmers are straighter swimmers. To draught you just swim right up behind them, tickle their toes occasionally. Don't be surprised if you get a kick in return.

If I were you I wouldn't push the swim hard at all. As long as you are within the cut offs you could put in a huge effort to trim a few minutes off the swim and completely balls up your bike and run.

It's a bit of both for me really, my technique needs work, sighting obviously does and from doing a bit of sea swimming with a mate who is a good swimmer I'm a bit lazy with my underwater stroke (although above the water I'm quite tidy apparently). I've got a weaker left shoulder which probably doesn't help, an old rugby injury but only painful towards the end of the swim rather than likely to go into complete failure. Thinking with a combination of better technique, pushing slightly harder and better sighting and hopefully an accurate course il be able to pick up that extra 24 secs per 100m or close to it.

Thinking the better efficiency will actually save me for the bike and run, the run is my strongest discipline so my main motivation is to be able to come off the bike and run the run all the way as comfortably as possible,

[944fan]

Yes having a more efficient stroke will mean you go further or less effort. Improving the stroke is hard if you don't know what you are doing wrong. I think we talked about coaching before I seem to recall you didn't have many options where you were or something? That would be your best bet for getting big gains in a short period of time.

When you say lazy underwater do you know what that is? Are you pulling your hand out too soon? If so a good drill to do there is what my coach calls pull to hip, but really it is pull to mid thigh. Swim lengths of normal crawl but brush your thumb against your thigh each time. This ensures a full length stroke. Doing this regularly in your swim sessions will build the muscle memory needed to always do that.

Other thing to work on underwater is arm position. You want to enter with your fingers pointing slightly down, quite often (and I was bad at this), peoples fingers point up, this has a braking effect and often your fingers re break the water. This creates a lot of drag.

Once you entry is good you want a high elbow and vertical forearm. A good drill here is to swim and reach over an imaginary barrel with your stroke. It can feel a little odd at first, and for me it slowed me down slightly on short sprints but sped up my distance swims

Final thing is head position. Nice flat head in the water keeps legs high. Low legs are draggy and very bad. When you breathe keep your head flat. You want one google in the water, one out.

Keep your kick tight. I like to brush my big toes together to ensure it is tight. A scissor kick is like opening a parachute behind you.

[briangriffin]

Thanks mate that's a big help, have got a coach down here local and he has knocked 40-50 seconds off my 100m time couple with getting my breathing right which has been a big help. Just think I haven't pushed on from perfecting comfortable breathing and pushed myself that little but harder physically. I do brush the thumb on the thigh but it isn't a muscle memory yet and I have to consciously think about doing it.

I do like the barrel idea though and the visualisation may help stop me daydreaming and getting lazy. My left arm, the bad shoulder arm is probably poor on form and technique which leads me crabbing across to the right when swimming so this visualisation may help me in that respect.

One last question bike related this time. What difference does weight make over the 112 mile distance? I'm fairly slim and basically size small in most clothes but could probably drop a stone over the course of the next 2 months with simply cleaning up my eating a bit (used to do a bit of boxing so was always slimmer than this before) and if I'm honest the focus and clean eating does make me feel much better within myself.

[944fan]

That's great progress to be taking that kind of time of your 100m. Sounds like now you just need to tweak the individual phases of the stroke now as you have the basics sorted. At your pace there is still a lot to be gained from technique improvements as well as fitness.

I often do the brush the thigh later on in long races just to remind me when I get lazy. Its a good drill because you an do it all the time if you don't do it unconsciously as it wont effect anything else.

Weight makes a huge difference on hills. I understand IM Wales is hilly as fk (technical term). On flat 85% of your output is going to moving the air out of the way. The faster you go the more effort required to move that air. Drag squares with speed. Up hill though you are fighting gravity, and so more mass = more effort. As you will be dealing with a lot of hills then yes being lighter will make you faster, it will also help you to keep your effort more constant so you don't over do the bike.

However, you need to make sure you don't torpedo your training by being in massive calorie deficit. You could end up lighter but less fit than you could be by not being able to train properly. Sounds like you aren't a massive fatty like me anyway. Definitely return to eating enough 2-3 weeks out so you are topped up with energy for the day.

[briangriffin]

7eah I'm not really talking of going into deficit I'm probably just under 12 stone at present and looking at going to just over 11. More cutting out takeaways and other junk and getting back to big portions of cleaner foods so losing 1lb a week.

And yeah that is the technical term for IMW, it's my area so my training ground anyway. Got 4 hours on the bike tomorrow heading due north from my house is pretty much up and down all the way. I've got a second wind for the training now after completing the swim and bike for LCW.

Are you doing Wales this year?

[944fan]

No I am not. I did a half a couple of weeks back, now focusing on standard distance.

At 100kg+ IM Wales will kill me. :-)

Plus the wife said I am not allowed to do a full IM as I spent too long training for the HIM. Little does she know I will probably spends just along training for the standard .

[bigandclever]

briangriffin said:

What difference does weight make over the 112 mile distance?

This is both scientific and not very scientific Plug some numbers into the calculator at http://bikecalculator.com/index.html and have a play with your different weights.

[m444ttb]

My first iron distance tri is now 4 days away and the reality is starting to sink in. Booked it last October and it has always felt a long way away. Even at the start of the month. There are only 134 competitors so it's likely to be fairly lonely on the bike, although the swim will take me 1:30-40 so I'll be in the last 10 or so out of the water and therefore probably have a chance of catching and passing one or two competitors along the 180k. I'll be happy just to finish but under 14 would be great, as would managing to run a decent portion rather than walk.

[ED209]

Completed my first standard tri yesterday at Woodhorn in Northumberland 2hrs 55 mins. Overall it was a little bit faster than i had hoped for but I had a massive panic attack at the start of the swim and nearly gave up, I couldn't breathe, couldn't settle and literally for got how to swim. I was about second last out of the water and was so relieved to have got out that i actually shed tears of joy on the bike.

My bike went as good as i could have expected, I averaged 17.8 mph over 28.6 miles which included me being an utter buffon and taking a wrong turn at my mates marshall point due to lack of concentration which maybe cost me 30 seconds and also having to stop for a slash which probably wasted around a minute.

i was happy with my run too 45mins 38 seconds for the 6 miles.

I got beat by my wife though by 1min 19 seconds , she won 3rd senior female which is great as its only her second serious tri event.

Overall I enjoyed it, i just wish i could wipe the start of the swim out of my mind. It was awful.