Biggest gap between professional & enthusiast?

[wormburner]

pilchardthecat said:

wormburner said:

superkartracer said:

gmh23 said:

Golf still requires physical exertion

Walking ? and swinging a stick.... i agree it's a game not sport, athletes they are not.

Picture your best 'athlete', whoever he is. Well, he can't hit a golf ball as far as fat, middle-aged Phil Mickelson can. How do you explain that?

He won't be able to beat Moses Kiptanui over 3000m steeplechase either. Nor will he beat Zhang Yong at weightlifting. Nor would he stand a chance of becoming a yokozuma. How do you explain that?

Perhaps your definition of athlete is rather narrow.

So darts is a sport then? and the fat beer drinking darts player on page 1 is a sportsman?

Golf is a skilled game. Middle-aged Phil Mickelson can hit golf balls further because he has good technique.

The fact that it is a skilled game and not a sport should in no way detract from the admiration you may have for people who are very good at golf, but the fact that something requires technique, does not make it a sport.

Correct. He is.

Since you can draw a distinction between sports and games, even between sports and games when both comprise both physical and mental challenges, can you tell me where that distinction lies?

What is the most 'sporty' game which is still a game, and what is the least 'sporty' sport which is still a sport?

I'm fascinated as to where you'll draw the line.

[Tiger Tim]

Tiggsy said:

I played a lot when younger and my kids play national league now (at the young end) and I'm involved with a Div 1 club behind the scenes so get to meet people.

I spoke with Wade when we were on the same train from Paris to London when Miami played in France few years ago - I took my son to see them play there as tickets for London (O2) where sold out....getting on the train to come home we were joined by the Heat and Nets players! I've seen all the NBA Europe games in the last few years and bump into all sorts via people I know in the sport.

Talking of Nash - I was talking to a US scout who was over here looking at some older kids in our system - he'd seen Nash train, just shooting jumpers from all over the court. Simply not missing anything....not like, hinting most....literally, not missing! (I bet he wishes he was 3" taller though )

I'm surprised you guys haven't mentioned Nate Robinson. Ok so he's a little hot headed and can be inconsistent but being 5'8 and playing in the NBA anywhere at any level is incredible. Going on to be Sprite dunk champ years on the trot is amazing. He took his weakness and now has one of the best jumps in the game.

That impresses me..

[superkartracer]

wormburner said:

Perhaps your definition of athlete is rather narrow.

Can't be bothered going into all the above posts in detail and unless you are an athlete yourself it'll be hard for you to understand.

SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above

The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.

1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique
4. Pain control and injury management during event
5. Fuel management during sport
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time.
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress.

Some samples -

F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing

GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above

Golf
Darts
Etc

[samwilliams]

superkartracer said:

...
SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above
...
4. Pain control and injury management during event
...

Some samples -

F1 driver

So, being an F1 driver requires 100% pain control and injury management? In what sense? Your little definition is so narrow that it would exclude countless things that are almost indisputably sports.

The fact is, everyone will have a slightly different definition and, invariably, it will include their own sport/game of choice.

From your profile it appears you race karts and consider yourself an athlete as a result. That's quite possibly fair enough, but it wouldn't be difficult to find plenty of people who don't share that opinion.

[wormburner]

superkartracer said:

wormburner said:

Perhaps your definition of athlete is rather narrow.

Can't be bothered going into all the above posts in detail and unless you are an athlete yourself it'll be hard for you to understand.

SPORT - that requires 100% from each of the 7 point above

The *athlete* will be on the razors edge of pushing the body to the limits while his/her mind monitors the bodies systems and controls the skill side of the task in hand, while energy levels slip away and damage is caused.

1. Fitness, elite.. top of the tree, able to run the body just under the limit
2. Mental skill - keeping tabs on Heart-rate, energy, time, effort while at the same time actually doing said sport
3. Skill - Balance/Speed/hand to eye coordination, spatial awareness, technical skill/technique
4. Pain control and injury management during event
5. Fuel management during sport
6. Physical and Mental strength - able to push the limits and at the correct time.
7. Focus - one of the most important skills, 100% total focus under the above stress.

Some samples -

F1 driver
TT cyclist
Marathon runner
Boxing

GAME - something that lacks 1-7 points or does not require extremes of the above

Golf
Darts
Etc

That sounds emphatic, but haven't you deemed sprinters non-athletes, on the grounds of points 2, 4 & 5?

There's nothing 'mental' about athleticism. It's a description for high physical performance. Put the mental game on top, and then you're talking about sport. Both required, in different mixtures for different sports.

"He's a great athlete" doesn't say anything at all about what's going on between his ears.

[superkartracer]

samwilliams said:

So, being an F1 driver requires 100% pain control and injury management?

Ever driven a top flight single seater?

[superkartracer]

wormburner said:

That sounds emphatic, but haven't you deemed sprinters non-athletes, on the grounds of points 2, 4 & 5?

So you think when training they only ever do 9 second sprints?, in training they will be pushing 2/4/5 to the limits

[samwilliams]

superkartracer said:

Ever driven a top flight single seater?

No. Ever felt the stresses placed on the body by swinging a golf club?

I admit that I don't have any idea how accurate this statement is, but a website (obviously the source of all fantastic evidence!) suggests that "Studies show that it would actually be less stressful to jog the eighteen holes of golf than to play them." It wouldn't surprise me.

I do think that motorsport is a sport. I also think that golf is a sport. I wouldn't consider participants of either as athletes necessarily (although those at the pinnacle usually are in both cases).

[Tiggsy]

superkartracer said:

wormburner said:

That sounds emphatic, but haven't you deemed sprinters non-athletes, on the grounds of points 2, 4 & 5?

So you think when training they only ever do 9 second sprints?, in training they will be pushing 2/4/5 to the limits

A darts player might run marathons to train - not a sport though.

[wormburner]

superkartracer said:

wormburner said:

That sounds emphatic, but haven't you deemed sprinters non-athletes, on the grounds of points 2, 4 & 5?

So you think when training they only ever do 9 second sprints?, in training they will be pushing 2/4/5 to the limits

What has training to do with anything? When they're training they'll be working on their bodies (athleticism) and sorting their heads out (not athleticism).

There's no medals for 'fuel management in training', that's not a sport, because it's not a competition.

The training might be a full time job, but the actual sport takes 10 seconds and involves essentially zero strategy and zero brain-power, which, by your own rules, makes Usain Bolt a non-athlete.

Honest question for you: are body-builders athletes?

[simoid]

superkartracer said:

So you think when training they only ever do 9 second sprints?, in training they will be pushing 2/4/5 to the limits

So might a tiddlywink trainer, or a golfer, or a dartist.

[samwilliams]

wormburner said:

Honest question for you: are body-builders athletes?

I'd put them in the same category as figure skaters - I think a sport needs to be able to have a clear and objective winner, not rely on subjective judgements.

[superkartracer]

Samwilliams - yes i've swung a golf-stick, F1 drivers are some of the fitness people on the planet and cover all those points.

Tiggsy - Not required to play darts is it, you can be a fat beer drinking type and do well.

Wormburner - What do you think athletes do in training? points 1-7 to the extreme if fact it's what they spend 30 hours a week doing, If you think bolt simply turns up and sprints with zero strategy and brain-power then do some reading, i'm not sure what bodybuilders are?, perverts??

Simoid - But points 2/4/5 are not required are they

Are any of you athletes? out of interest

[samwilliams]

superkartracer said:

Are any of you athletes? out of interest

Would I class myself as an athlete? Certainly not.

Have I done things that have led to others classing me as an athlete? Yes.

[simoid]

But I don't see how training has nothing to do with the categorising of an activity as sport.

Not an athlete, I'm a social golfer, footballer, darter, snookerer and racket sporter on occasion.

[superkartracer]

Interesting read on just the start of a sprint alone!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/skills/4...

[simoid]

Interesting evidence of something we all know: that sprinting requires some technique, or did I miss something?

[samwilliams]

superkartracer said:

Interesting read on just the start of a sprint alone!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/skills/4...

Interesting video of a golf swing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2o1SYXaOHE

(this could go round and round in circles for hours, you know?!)

[superkartracer]

samwilliams said:

superkartracer said:

Interesting read on just the start of a sprint alone!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/skills/4...

Interesting video of a golf swing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2o1SYXaOHE

(this could go round and round in circles for hours, you know?!)

But his Heartrate is not at 200 bpm and body on that razors edge of failure which will makes things far easier to control.

I posted the vid as someone said above there was no brain power required, in-fact the launch and sprint is very complex set of tasks, even tho it's only 10 seconds to you and me it'll be slowed right down by the sprinter who will be keeping checks on everything ( including the guys around him ) i assure you, it's not just a blind dash for the line.

[superkartracer]

Anyway... still think it's boxing.