Lance Armstrong vs. USADA

[samwilliams]

Asterix said:

Next you'll be saying there is a God as no-one can prove he doesn't exist. Trying to prove a negative is quite difficult.

Not really. I presume USADA has case it is willing to present in court (or whatever the forum would be). If it's so bad that it can't possibly result in Armstrong being found guilty of doping, then it's an easy thing for him to fight and he should do it. But, if there is a case to answer, you can't avoid facing it by simply refusing to turn up.

[Nom de ploom]

odyssey2200 said:

Question.

Who organises and runs the Tour de france?

If the organisers are happy that Lance passed all the tests, do they have the right or obligation to strip him of his wins on the basis of unproven allegations from another body?

exactly my point from earlier in the thread...

[Asterix]

samwilliams said:

Asterix said:

Next you'll be saying there is a God as no-one can prove he doesn't exist. Trying to prove a negative is quite difficult.

Not really. I presume USADA has case it is willing to present in court (or whatever the forum would be). If it's so bad that it can't possibly result in Armstrong being found guilty of doping, then it's an easy thing for him to fight and he should do it. But, if there is a case to answer, you can't avoid facing it by simply refusing to turn up.

True - I was being a bit extreme.

[rhinochopig]

Hackney said:

Given the number of dopers caught in the years Armstrong won would they even bother announcing a new winner of each tour?

@KathyLeMond tweeted (one of only two so not sure if a genuine account) "Finally"

the other one is a retweet, "as of tonight, Greg LeMond is the only American man to win the Tour de France"

This would the man who beat Chiapucci who was suspected of doping. Just shows you how good lemond was to beat dopers in three tours and to do it clean

[anonymous-user]

Nom de ploom said:

to this date he has still never failed a drugs test. FACT.

amid the conjecture, allegations and anecdotal evidence and testimony, I don't think we should lose sight of that fact.

Plenty of ex dopers never failed a test. Many of lances ex team mates never failed a test and have admitted to doping. Why did Lance Armstrong donate $100,000 to the UCI? The allegation is that he tested positive and the uci covered it up.

[Hackney]

Nom de ploom said:

odyssey2200 said:

Question.

Who organises and runs the Tour de france?

If the organisers are happy that Lance passed all the tests, do they have the right or obligation to strip him of his wins on the basis of unproven allegations from another body?

exactly my point from earlier in the thread...

UCI could strip Armstrong of TdF titles.
USADA have no authority to do that.

[Hackney]

rhinochopig said:

Hackney said:

Given the number of dopers caught in the years Armstrong won would they even bother announcing a new winner of each tour?

@KathyLeMond tweeted (one of only two so not sure if a genuine account) "Finally"

the other one is a retweet, "as of tonight, Greg LeMond is the only American man to win the Tour de France"

This would the man who beat Chiapucci who was suspected of doping. Just shows you how good lemond was to beat dopers in three tours and to do it clean

But then LeMond used tribars when they were illegal and won the tour.

[anonymous-user]

Hackney said:

But then LeMond used tribars when they were illegal and won the tour.

they werent illeagal at all, its simply that the french hadn't thought of using them...

[DJRC]

el stovey said:

Nom de ploom said:

to this date he has still never failed a drugs test. FACT.

amid the conjecture, allegations and anecdotal evidence and testimony, I don't think we should lose sight of that fact.

Plenty of ex dopers never failed a test. Many of lances ex team mates never failed a test and have admitted to doping. Why did Lance Armstrong donate $100,000 to the UCI? The allegation is that he tested positive and the uci covered it up.

Again thats an allegation though, not proof.
So far, nobody has actually offered any proof. Its just hearsay, or circumstantial at best.

You have proof...present it! At the moment LA has got these fools whipped because he has just played them in public to look like a witchhunt for his head. By throwing his hands up and saying "You know what? Im done with you guys, whatever" he has removed their effective power over him. What are they going to do? Stand there and shout and point fingers and say woohoo we got out man? No, ppl will just laugh at them and say no you didnt, in fact he did the opposite and just walked away from you. They either have to put the proof into a court of law or basically go nowhere with it. They cant strip him of anything and it would appear that no authority outside of internally within the US gives a crap.

It has been an almighty cock up from start to finish. Armstrong has hung, drawn and quartered them in the court of public opinion and they have let him by incompetence.

[Nom de ploom]

O/T odd that they didn't learn from that experience at the olympics.

Team GB wheels are more round than everyone elses...

RE LA:

I believe still though, that the effort and sheer will power it would have needed - if he were doping - to take the right drugs to cover the PE drugs up or the right masking drugs or whateever would have been so huge and time consuming that it would be less effort staying clean...

is there a serious suggestion then that over a 20 year pro cycling career he took performance enhancing drugs and took the right drugs consistently to mask those...

That bit just doesn't fit with random testing in and out of season...to me...

[Derek Smith]

Nom de ploom said:

to this date he has still never failed a drugs test. FACT.

Not quite a fact. There have been suggestions that he failed half a dozen on the Tour de Suisse. Further, it has been apparent over the years that not failing drugs tests is not a reliable indicator as to whether a person has taken drugs or not. There have been any number of riders who have said that they have passed drugs tests while taking drugs. The problem that scientists have is not testing for drugs but in eliminating the masking agents.

Further, from what I've read - not really totally dependable but more so than '500+ drugs tests' and 'most tested athlete in history' - the charges do not only related to taking drugs but other 'illegal' activities as well. Don't forget, it is not only he who is under investigation in this matter.

marcosgt said:

Guilty or not, this doesn't say much good about American 'Justice'.

A man accused of something with no substantial evidence (that's ever been put into the public arena anyway) is 'guilty' because he decides to give up lining lawyer's pockets.

Have the Americans abandoned "Innocent until proven guilty" altogether now?

M

The justice system has found he has a case to answer. He has been given the opportunity of denying these accusations under oath but has, so far, failed to do so. Far from being reluctant to line the pockets of lawyers, there is much online to suggest that Livestrong.org will opt for courts at the drop of a hint.

He has turned down the option of a tribunal where one of the three is nominated by his 'side' and where his choice has the right of veto on the third. Some might feel the reason he has refused is not because he wants a kip but because such evidence is given under oath and if anyone lies they can be prosectuted.

He is, in my understanding, being punished for failing to conform to the requirement that he will put himself in the witness box under oath. LA would appear to have backed himself into a corner wher the only option is the one the ADA has opted for.

[samwilliams]

DJRC said:

...You have proof...present it! At the moment LA has got these fools whipped because he has just played them in public to look like a witchhunt for his head. By throwing his hands up and saying "You know what? Im done with you guys, whatever" he has removed their effective power over him...

But that's exactly what they have just tried to do. As soon as they did that, and Armstrong was going to have to present a defence in proceedings, he suddenly decided to shut up and give in.

To me, that doesn't look like it's the USADA that are scared to present their evidence. More likely the other way around.

[JuniorD]

ewenm said:

JuniorD said:

Sorry, I don't see how your post and question is pertinent to my quoted post?

You seem so certain about it, I assumed you've seen the evidence against LA and so would know why USADA see this case as such a priority. My mistake.

Please point me to where I said anything about the USADA making Armstrong's case a priority.

[epom]

At the end of the day I assume they are doing all this and inviting all this terrible publicity to preserve the 'good' name of cycling

[Sway]

I put on here earlier, although I haven't the link, that LA isn't even the most tested Armstrong...

There's a female Armstrong triathlete (no relation) that has been tested more often...

[anonymous-user]

DJRC said:

el stovey said:

Nom de ploom said:

to this date he has still never failed a drugs test. FACT.

amid the conjecture, allegations and anecdotal evidence and testimony, I don't think we should lose sight of that fact.

Plenty of ex dopers never failed a test. Many of lances ex team mates never failed a test and have admitted to doping. Why did Lance Armstrong donate $100,000 to the UCI? The allegation is that he tested positive and the uci covered it up.

Again thats an allegation though, not proof.
So far, nobody has actually offered any proof. Its just hearsay, or circumstantial at best.

You have proof...present it! At the moment LA has got these fools whipped because he has just played them in public to look like a witchhunt for his head. By throwing his hands up and saying "You know what? Im done with you guys, whatever" he has removed their effective power over him. What are they going to do? Stand there and shout and point fingers and say woohoo we got out man? No, ppl will just laugh at them and say no you didnt, in fact he did the opposite and just walked away from you. They either have to put the proof into a court of law or basically go nowhere with it. They cant strip him of anything and it would appear that no authority outside of internally within the US gives a crap.

It has been an almighty cock up from start to finish. Armstrong has hung, drawn and quartered them in the court of public opinion and they have let him by incompetence.

Lance has nobody whipped. He's just given up defending himself. He looks completely guilty.

Only the most ardent Lance fans would believe he's innocent after this defeat. He has simply chosen the least worst option, he knows he's about to have evidence against him formally released and has simply preempted it by given up first, It's not all over by a long shot. Unfortunately this is only the beginning of the end of Lance Armstrong's reputation.

Innocent people never defend themselves by saying they've had enough. It's nonsense.

[anonymous-user]

samwilliams said:

DJRC said:

...You have proof...present it! At the moment LA has got these fools whipped because he has just played them in public to look like a witchhunt for his head. By throwing his hands up and saying "You know what? Im done with you guys, whatever" he has removed their effective power over him...

But that's exactly what they have just tried to do. As soon as they did that, and Armstrong was going to have to present a defence in proceedings, he suddenly decided to shut up and give in.

To me, that doesn't look like it's the USADA that are scared to present their evidence. More likely the other way around.

Of course. It will come out anyway and even then Lance fans won't accept it.

[BlackVanDyke]

el stovey said:

samwilliams said:

DJRC said:

...You have proof...present it! At the moment LA has got these fools whipped because he has just played them in public to look like a witchhunt for his head. By throwing his hands up and saying "You know what? Im done with you guys, whatever" he has removed their effective power over him...

But that's exactly what they have just tried to do. As soon as they did that, and Armstrong was going to have to present a defence in proceedings, he suddenly decided to shut up and give in.

To me, that doesn't look like it's the USADA that are scared to present their evidence. More likely the other way around.

Of course. It will come out anyway and even then Lance fans won't accept it.

The number of people that have gone a bit ostrich over all this is incredible.

[anonymous-user]

BlackVanDyke said:

el stovey said:

samwilliams said:

DJRC said:

...You have proof...present it! At the moment LA has got these fools whipped because he has just played them in public to look like a witchhunt for his head. By throwing his hands up and saying "You know what? Im done with you guys, whatever" he has removed their effective power over him...

But that's exactly what they have just tried to do. As soon as they did that, and Armstrong was going to have to present a defence in proceedings, he suddenly decided to shut up and give in.

To me, that doesn't look like it's the USADA that are scared to present their evidence. More likely the other way around.

Of course. It will come out anyway and even then Lance fans won't accept it.

The number of people that have gone a bit ostrich over all this is incredible.

The only people Lance is fooling and playing is his own supporters.

[Silver993tt]

I do believe that LA is totally innocent in this. However, what happpens if they do strip him of the 7 TDF tiles (which they have no power to anyway)? So whoever came second 10 years ago or whenever is told "by the way, you won". So what, it's pointless. Winning is being 1st there at the time in the atmosphere with the supporters.

This is all an utterly pointless excercise that won't change the real results that happened at the time.

It's about time that the drug testing authorities are give one year from the TDF (for example) to prove or not that a participant was doped or not. After that, tough, they had their time and failed to prove anything.