Lance Armstrong vs. USADA

[London424]

Here's a link to the interview.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-ex...

[London424]

LostBMW said:

London424 said:

Can't see much to disagree with LA. Here's Rasmussen confessing all.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/michael-rasmussen-...

""I used EPO, growth hormone, testosterone, DHEA, insulin, IGF-1, and cortisone and did blood transfusions," Rasumssen said reading a prepared statement, looking pale and emotional but in control."

Withdrawal symptoms?

[London424]

As many have said, if you think it is only cycling that is doped up I think there is a pretty murky world out there that people aren't looking into too closely.

Here's one of the latest in the US.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/a-...

You've also got Vijay Singh (PGA Golf) caught as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/21273128

[London424]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/21347525

The first soundings of criminal charges.

[London424]

Toscana said:

Wouldn't it be easier to list the non cheats from that era?

Which era? From what I've taken from all this is you go back to the start of cycling and that's when the cheating began.

[London424]

Digger said:

Welshbeef said:

Given whats happening in swimming track and field Golf squash frankly everyone is at it

Yep . . . essence of deer antler is where it's at

Don't forget everything going on in Oz.

[London424]

Efbe said:

London424 said:

Digger said:

Welshbeef said:

Given whats happening in swimming track and field Golf squash frankly everyone is at it

Yep . . . essence of deer antler is where it's at

Don't forget everything going on in Oz.

hang on. about 20 pages ago, and quite a few months I posted that all professional sport with any kind of money in it will be full of drugs.

...I got thoroughly slated...

Now a bit later, more is coming about about drugs, more drug use found and found to be much more prolific, and now I sound slightly less alarmist.

So I stand by what I said, and I think more people may agree now. There will always be dopers in sports, and where there are dopers with a distinct advantage, it will make it near impossible for other contenders not to dope. Thus the doping culture is formed.
So whether it be steroids, hgh, drugs to help concentration, drugs to keep you awake or get you more focussed, I would expect drugs to be at the highest levels of most highly profitable sports.

The second point which is completely separate is that it is up to the sports themselves to prove they are not doping, not on the spectator to prove they are. We can't do anything, enforce anything, say anything. Sport is still treated as a past-time in law, you try cheating in any other profession, and see where that gets you!
Cycling has made some quite pathetic attempts to prove drugs have gone from the sport. I don't for a second think they actually have, and their inaction just confirms my suspicions.
Most other sports however do nothing or very little, certainly no where near the levels of cycling.

I was with you. Where there is money to be made, people will push the boundaries. I've been one of the people who have also struggled to understand why LA has been vilified as much as he has. I guess that he is the biggest target and makes a perfect scapegoat.

[London424]

Vocal Minority said:

London424 - I do understand your point, but I think an awful lot of the anger isn't directed at Lance Armstrong the athlete, it is directed at Lance Armstrong the legend.

Your perspective is very clinical and logical - and on that basis yopu are bang on the money. Lance is not the biggest cheat in sport history - he is just another cheat.

The biggest fraud on the other hand...now that is a different matter. It isn't about sport any more - as much as you break it down dispassionately it just isn't. Lance Armstrong became a legend, driven on by the cult of personality, being a survivor, being a winner, through Livestrong, through his books, through being 'St Lance'. Being clean was a huge part of that. The fact that the man appears to be the most colossal ahole merely rubs salt in the wounds.

I think we have probably discussed this before, but you have a very nuts and bolts view of it, whereas many others are much more involved.

Looking purely at the sport aspect - you are right. Lance isn't necessarily worse for the use of PEDs, just better at it. However, where for you it may be purely about sport, for the people villifying (for want of a better word, that implies innosence I don't think is there) him, it is about way way more than merely bike racing.

I guess I'm just a bit more pragmatic. I think it's very silly to idolise anyone or put people on a pedastal...they are just as flawed (and more so in many cases) than anyone else.

What I find interesting is that the people that seem to be most angry (I guess that's the emotion) are the ones that feel there are people that were taken in with Livestrong. The reason I find it interesting is that it is the people with cancer that still believe in him. Livestrong received the largest donations following the stories of him doping.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnist/hie...

That's just a link to a US sportscaster whose cancer has returned and rather than feel let down by LA, he and others still appreciate what he represents as a cancer survivor and what Livestrong has done to raise awareness and support network.

[London424]

http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-releases-armstro...

UCI actually manages to make someone else look a bit silly, rather than themselves.

[London424]

Derek Smith said:

London424 said:

I've been one of the people who have also struggled to understand why LA has been vilified as much as he has. I guess that he is the biggest target and makes a perfect scapegoat.

I'm not sure you fully understand the concept of a scapegoat.

Even if we accept the questionable premise that Armstrong was no worse than a lot of other athletes, we must also accept that he is as bad as other athletes. He deserves contempt for that.

On top of that he made him $millions by being clean, by not taking drugs, by showing everyone that natural talent, allied to hard work and excellent coaching, can overcome all obstacle, even the big C. We find he's not only a cheat but a liar, his career is based on fraud.

He marketed emotive: you cannot blame those who were taken in for using similar emotions to criticise him. Hamilton tells us that Armstrong not only put pressure on others to take drugs by way of increased performance but did it by bullying as well.

We have had a rather eloquent goodbye speech from one of our own road racers saying that those who took drugs also took money from her and other clean riders. The same goes for Armstrong.

Also this is another nail in the coffin of a sport that I really love watching. I used to cycle 200 miles a week and the Tour was the sporting highlight of the year.

The scapegoat comment refers that people seem to have a warped view that punishing LA will cure doping in cycling as if he was some Godfather figure controlling all and everything. They are focusing on him, when he has done what numerous others have and continue to do but aren't targetted in nearly the same way.

As we've seen over the last few weeks alone, he's just one of a number of athletes at the top of their sports that have doped.

[London424]

DJRC said:

Where he would have been just as much of a ruthless bd, squashing, bullying and railroading people and probably picking and chosing the law as it suited him. No difference.

Yep. Slightly off topic but it was Michael Jordan's 50th this week. If you want to see someone who made LA look like an angel do a bit of reading up about him.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/Michael-Jorda...

Oh and if you're still even remotely interested, watch his hall of fame induction speech.

[London424]

DJRC said:

And there we have it.

The US govt just filed against Lance to the tune of £78m.

Now the real fight begins.

No surprise there.

I wonder if he will counter sue for the increase in revenue/brand awareness during the time he was riding

[London424]

Now this is how you cover up drug taking!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycli...

[London424]

WeirdNeville said:

Absolutely - it's nothing near a level playing field.
The person who can extract maximum performance without killing themself wins: It's like turbocharging an engine. More money means you can do it better, safer, and extract more potential. Not all engines are the same of course: But you might be able to get more performance out of your 3.0 V6 than the guy next to you can get out of his 4.0 V8.
The best doctors and the best drugs means more chance of winning, and less chance of getting caught or suffering unwanted effects. Like Death.

Whilst I agree with this, the "level playing field" comment I think is more that if you weren't on anything then you were nowhere.

So no it wasn't "level", but closer than if you were clean.

Sad times

[London424]

Zabel tells all now...

http://m.cyclingnews.com/news/zabel-admits-to-dopi...

[London424]

Welshbeef said:

This is part of my point. Sure LA did a terrible thing and is getting trashed for it - but why not everyone else?

They were all at it so treat them all the same a cheat is a cheat if you do it once or a career or anywhere inbetween.
The issues of bullying etc should be persued via the courts in a civil action. I'm sure we all know plenty of people who put success ahead of everything else evening lying to their closest families bullying those in work etc so to me while its not very nice to read about it happens all the time. If they have a grievance then go to court and be done with it - and do it sharp ish before he has no more money to give out in compensation.

Oh he's got plenty of money. More than he could ever spend.

[London424]

Well he's won this lawsuit it seems.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/...

Looked pretty optimistic to me anyway so not much of a victory.

[London424]

Here's the next one in the line. A heavy hitter...interesting defense he's going with!

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/540530/...

[London424]

Digger said:

Boo fking Hoo. Sorry Lance no sympathy from me I'm afraid.

You reap what you sow.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/24896216

I think his overall point is you can't pick and choose the punishment. He has been made a "special case" and it's frankly a bit laughable when you think of all the dopers throughout the history of cycling in comparison.

[London424]

Jacobyte said:

London424 said:

Digger said:

Boo fking Hoo. Sorry Lance no sympathy from me I'm afraid.

You reap what you sow.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/24896216

I think his overall point is you can't pick and choose the punishment. He has been made a "special case" and it's frankly a bit laughable when you think of all the dopers throughout the history of cycling in comparison.

He wasn't just a doper like the rest of them. The extreme levels of manipulation and fraud he committed have had a far more wide reaching and damaging effect than someone just doing drugs to be a competitive cyclist. He deserves not a jot of sympathy.

But this is the point. They were all doing it. They all manipulated, they all cheated, they all committed fraud.

Do you think he was the first?

I'm not suggesting he gets any sympathy, and I don't think he particularly wants any. What he is saying is treat everyone the same. Just because he's the most "famous" of recent years and wasn't European he has had a much harsher punishment than anyone else.

ETA: This case has some parallels with the Alex Rodriguez and Major League Baseball case and they punishment they are trying to give him.

Edited by London424 on Monday 11th November 16:48