Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
rhinochopig said:
But to single LA out is pointless now. They were ALL at it. And to be fair to him, he was a complete psycho in terms of his training and preparation.
I read a psych paper a few years back which compared elite - multi championship, olympic, etc winning athletes to full on certified psychopaths and other than a focus for their outlet, they tested exactly the same. And I think LA takes the level of obsession and drive to a new level compared to his contemporaries.
If ANYONE was going to do it clean it was him.
Ha ha, this does match my thoughts of the elite rowers I know exactly, totally pathalogically focussed and rubbish people people. Think Andy Murray..!I read a psych paper a few years back which compared elite - multi championship, olympic, etc winning athletes to full on certified psychopaths and other than a focus for their outlet, they tested exactly the same. And I think LA takes the level of obsession and drive to a new level compared to his contemporaries.
If ANYONE was going to do it clean it was him.
prand said:
rhinochopig said:
But to single LA out is pointless now. They were ALL at it. And to be fair to him, he was a complete psycho in terms of his training and preparation.
I read a psych paper a few years back which compared elite - multi championship, olympic, etc winning athletes to full on certified psychopaths and other than a focus for their outlet, they tested exactly the same. And I think LA takes the level of obsession and drive to a new level compared to his contemporaries.
If ANYONE was going to do it clean it was him.
Ha ha, this does match my thoughts of the elite rowers I know exactly, totally pathalogically focussed and rubbish people people. Think Andy Murray..!I read a psych paper a few years back which compared elite - multi championship, olympic, etc winning athletes to full on certified psychopaths and other than a focus for their outlet, they tested exactly the same. And I think LA takes the level of obsession and drive to a new level compared to his contemporaries.
If ANYONE was going to do it clean it was him.
I struggle to believe that mental determination allowed him to do what he did for 3 weeks, on every single balls to the wall stage.
Plus the teammates who massively outperformed their abilities.
Also don't forget the analysis of physiologically possible power outputs aren't just based on cyclists, but sportsmen of all flavours. I stopped following things prior to this analysis being available, but the required power outputs for the performances were not a small amount higher than any other sportsman, but significantly higher.
Not saying he's not an incredible natural athlete, look to his WC win at 21, but he wasn't and isn't a superhuman who could effectively have won any endurance event in any sport with power outputs like that...
Also, if he was part of the supply chain, then calling it ancient history really shouldn't be an option.
Do agree that the methods being used leave a sour taste, but like the McCanns, he seems to be more effort being litigious than answering very pertinent questions...
Asterix said:
Being a s
t singer live probably - horribly nasal voice and phoned in the performance when I was dragged along to see them. Rest of the band were good.
I reckon that's it
t singer live probably - horribly nasal voice and phoned in the performance when I was dragged along to see them. Rest of the band were good.I reckon that's it
True but hardly a shadow, more like a massive neon sign that drew everyone's attention ages ago to those facts!Sway said:
prand said:
rhinochopig said:
But to single LA out is pointless now. They were ALL at it. And to be fair to him, he was a complete psycho in terms of his training and preparation.
I read a psych paper a few years back which compared elite - multi championship, olympic, etc winning athletes to full on certified psychopaths and other than a focus for their outlet, they tested exactly the same. And I think LA takes the level of obsession and drive to a new level compared to his contemporaries.
If ANYONE was going to do it clean it was him.
Ha ha, this does match my thoughts of the elite rowers I know exactly, totally pathalogically focussed and rubbish people people. Think Andy Murray..!I read a psych paper a few years back which compared elite - multi championship, olympic, etc winning athletes to full on certified psychopaths and other than a focus for their outlet, they tested exactly the same. And I think LA takes the level of obsession and drive to a new level compared to his contemporaries.
If ANYONE was going to do it clean it was him.
I struggle to believe that mental determination allowed him to do what he did for 3 weeks, on every single balls to the wall stage.
Plus the teammates who massively outperformed their abilities.
Also don't forget the analysis of physiologically possible power outputs aren't just based on cyclists, but sportsmen of all flavours. I stopped following things prior to this analysis being available, but the required power outputs for the performances were not a small amount higher than any other sportsman, but significantly higher.
Not saying he's not an incredible natural athlete, look to his WC win at 21, but he wasn't and isn't a superhuman who could effectively have won any endurance event in any sport with power outputs like that...
Also, if he was part of the supply chain, then calling it ancient history really shouldn't be an option.
Do agree that the methods being used leave a sour taste, but like the McCanns, he seems to be more effort being litigious than answering very pertinent questions...
It does make you wonder what he's done behind the scenes to make them so venomous rather than celebrate his achievments and flaying the flag for the US.
Agreed, and I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, but if its clear that not testing positive isn't the full answer, and the power outputs are suspicious to say the least to a layman he's got to realise that there should be answers.
Never forget how much he could lose. In the States he is a massive, massive star. He's earned vast sums of money, fame and opportunities outside cycling through his achievements, so falling back on 'I've never tested positive', especially when there have been bans based on alternative evidence in spite of passed tests isn't good enough in my opinion.
It also has bugger all to do with the accusations of being part of the supply chain...
Never forget how much he could lose. In the States he is a massive, massive star. He's earned vast sums of money, fame and opportunities outside cycling through his achievements, so falling back on 'I've never tested positive', especially when there have been bans based on alternative evidence in spite of passed tests isn't good enough in my opinion.
It also has bugger all to do with the accusations of being part of the supply chain...
Sway said:
Agreed, and I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, but if its clear that not testing positive isn't the full answer, and the power outputs are suspicious to say the least to a layman he's got to realise that there should be answers.
Never forget how much he could lose. In the States he is a massive, massive star. He's earned vast sums of money, fame and opportunities outside cycling through his achievements, so falling back on 'I've never tested positive', especially when there have been bans based on alternative evidence in spite of passed tests isn't good enough in my opinion.
It also has bugger all to do with the accusations of being part of the supply chain...
But there are athletes who are simply that much better than the opposition. Look at Usain Bolt for example. Conventional wisdom WRT sprinting was that being very tall was a distinct disadvantage due to power to weight / acceleration. And yet here comes someone who's 6'5" tall and completely destroys the field with absolute ease and re-writes the rule book in the process.Never forget how much he could lose. In the States he is a massive, massive star. He's earned vast sums of money, fame and opportunities outside cycling through his achievements, so falling back on 'I've never tested positive', especially when there have been bans based on alternative evidence in spite of passed tests isn't good enough in my opinion.
It also has bugger all to do with the accusations of being part of the supply chain...
Look at Mat Pinsent who had produced a raft of never seen before physiological measurements.
So you do occasionally get these 'supermen'
I've been a big Lance fan over the years. His incredible story and achievements were part of the reason I entered the Etape du Tour in 2005. However, I've always accepted that it was extremely likely that he was bang on the gear.
I think everybody was during his era, or rather every cyclist competing remotely near the front. If you wanted to be in the mix, that's what you had to do. So many of his contemporaries have been caught, and yet he was able to soundly, and often spectacularly, beat them. To my mind, that's the most damning evidence. Then when you scratch a little deeper, and learn about Ferrari and listen to the accusations of the former team mates and associates, it's harder not to reach that conclusion.
But he was the best. If they were all on it, then he was fastest, and I suspect that if they'd all been clean he would have still won a few yellow jerseys.
This may sound like a contradiction, but having stated that I believe he took performance enhancers, I don't want the USADA to pursue him. What are they hoping to achieve?
I think everybody was during his era, or rather every cyclist competing remotely near the front. If you wanted to be in the mix, that's what you had to do. So many of his contemporaries have been caught, and yet he was able to soundly, and often spectacularly, beat them. To my mind, that's the most damning evidence. Then when you scratch a little deeper, and learn about Ferrari and listen to the accusations of the former team mates and associates, it's harder not to reach that conclusion.
But he was the best. If they were all on it, then he was fastest, and I suspect that if they'd all been clean he would have still won a few yellow jerseys.
This may sound like a contradiction, but having stated that I believe he took performance enhancers, I don't want the USADA to pursue him. What are they hoping to achieve?
London424 said:
What I can't figure out though is, if they were all on it, how did they get caught and he didn't? Especially as he was probably the most tested of the lot.
Because it wasn't like steroids - a non natural substance that had a performance enhancement.It was naturally occurring substances, or their own blood taken a long time before, sperated and reintroduced to assist recovery. Or a million and one other ways that effectively are immeasurable.
EPO wasn't discovered through testing, but by a random police check on a team doctor who happened to have some very suspicious vials he couldn't explain...
Sway said:
London424 said:
What I can't figure out though is, if they were all on it, how did they get caught and he didn't? Especially as he was probably the most tested of the lot.
Because it wasn't like steroids - a non natural substance that had a performance enhancement.It was naturally occurring substances, or their own blood taken a long time before, sperated and reintroduced to assist recovery. Or a million and one other ways that effectively are immeasurable.
EPO wasn't discovered through testing, but by a random police check on a team doctor who happened to have some very suspicious vials he couldn't explain...
London424 said:
Sway said:
London424 said:
What I can't figure out though is, if they were all on it, how did they get caught and he didn't? Especially as he was probably the most tested of the lot.
Because it wasn't like steroids - a non natural substance that had a performance enhancement.It was naturally occurring substances, or their own blood taken a long time before, sperated and reintroduced to assist recovery. Or a million and one other ways that effectively are immeasurable.
EPO wasn't discovered through testing, but by a random police check on a team doctor who happened to have some very suspicious vials he couldn't explain...
They wouldn't be done for theft, but would be bent over by the taxman...
Don't forget, Bruyneel has a lot of questionmarks over his head, the Astana investigation seems to have produced a lot of information.
To the poster who mentioned Bolt and Pinsent - agreed, there are supermen. All the ones I can think of though are sprinters, I can't think of a single endurance athlete that dominated a sport so completely, by such a margin.
Ask Pinsent to do a record Head time everyday for three weeks, I'm pretty sure I know what the answer would be!
The treatment of Armstrong's cancer is critical to this whole argument but no one seems to really want to mention it for fear of criticism. Lance was given a 5% chance of survival so the doctors pretty much went ballistic with everything they had at their disposal to treat him with little regard for what it did ot him as as athlete. To be honest, I gather cycling was a long way from most peoples thoughts at the time...
Chemotherapy treatment is designed to stop the production of cells which naturally reproduce at a fast rate, subsequently this affects the production rate of blood cells, so as far as i am aware, its common practice to then use drugs which, when the cancer cells have been eliminated, increase the production of the cells affected and thus aid recover.
The simple question to which no one seems to be able to answer is could these recovery drugs have had the same affect as doping. Logic would seem to indicate that its possible....
he is known for being brash, i htink he has rubbed a good few people up the wrong way in the past and they want to bring him down. This has less to do with cleaning up cycling and more to do with increasing some peoples personal profile as being the man who took down Armstrong.
Chemotherapy treatment is designed to stop the production of cells which naturally reproduce at a fast rate, subsequently this affects the production rate of blood cells, so as far as i am aware, its common practice to then use drugs which, when the cancer cells have been eliminated, increase the production of the cells affected and thus aid recover.
The simple question to which no one seems to be able to answer is could these recovery drugs have had the same affect as doping. Logic would seem to indicate that its possible....
he is known for being brash, i htink he has rubbed a good few people up the wrong way in the past and they want to bring him down. This has less to do with cleaning up cycling and more to do with increasing some peoples personal profile as being the man who took down Armstrong.
Having done some more reading, the whole 'I'm the most tested athlete ever' is complete tosh - according to USADA, he's not even the most tested person called Armstrong! (Kristian Armstrong has more recorded tests)...
More info here...
http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the...
More info here...
http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/the-legend-of-the...
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