Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
JuniorD said:
Yeah you're probably right, Lance was the best at cycling, plus everyone cheats in sports and gets away with it particularly in cycling, so they should leave him alone, and let him enjoy a happy, wealthy and well earned retirement.
Another one question why don't you want all the other EPO dopers and cheats banned for life and have punitive fines? What about our UK 100m sprinter drug doper?Didn't our boy Bradley use the same "saddle sore" corrida cream that lance did and just like lance was found out and had to give the perscritpion after the fact rather than in advance...... (Might have Wiggings mixed with the other good UK cyclist but he same applies).
Lastly if we talk about totally blown out of the water results - why isn't there any questions or lots of testing Usain Bolt? I mean to be that far ahead with hardly any history seems just too good to be true. Maybe an amazing doping going on right now which the trsters simply have not found (or not).
Welshbeef said:
JuniorD said:
Yeah you're probably right, Lance was the best at cycling, plus everyone cheats in sports and gets away with it particularly in cycling, so they should leave him alone, and let him enjoy a happy, wealthy and well earned retirement.
Another one question why don't you want all the other EPO dopers and cheats banned for life and have punitive fines? What about our UK 100m sprinter drug doper?Didn't our boy Bradley use the same "saddle sore" corrida cream that lance did and just like lance was found out and had to give the perscritpion after the fact rather than in advance...... (Might have Wiggings mixed with the other good UK cyclist but he same applies).
Lastly if we talk about totally blown out of the water results - why isn't there any questions or lots of testing Usain Bolt? I mean to be that far ahead with hardly any history seems just too good to be true. Maybe an amazing doping going on right now which the trsters simply have not found (or not).
I think you must either be mixing me up with someone else, or with your imaginary opponent in the imaginary heated debate that's going on in your mind.
JuniorD said:
Tell me where I ever said I don't want all the other EPO dopers and cheats banned.
I think you must either be mixing me up with someone else, or with your imaginary opponent in the imaginary heated debate that's going on in your mind.
Hold on its a general post on here plenty of others have this view. I think you must either be mixing me up with someone else, or with your imaginary opponent in the imaginary heated debate that's going on in your mind.
End of the day to me its the fact they should all get more or less the same ban and a tiered level of fines. That is fair but it appears too many realised the house of cards was falling down and literally days to go jumped in on it and take 6 months ban then back in the game. Mad not to do it to be fair to them but what if LA had done it too and another one held out would he had had the same? Somehow I doubt it.
This is my sole issue. I couldn't give a flying f
k about him or what he did or didn't do sports wise or personally wise (though his cancer testicuallar awareness message went round the world which without question will have saved some lives - that alone makes up for any nasty man bully or cheat stuff). iMHOel stovey said:
Welshbeef said:
So are you honestly stating that if a competitor is caught taking illegal drugs yet won the game and the prize money should keep it all? Very odd.
Read about Armstrong's contracts with SCA. he has been posting the same uninformed drivel for a good few pages. well I say uninformed, but it appears to have been informed by the daily mail.
A lot of the difference in treatment comes from the local authorities/national culture...
USADA, being American, have seen an injustice and gone for the throat. I don't think many disagree with that. American sponsors, knowing that the American public will see complicity if they don't (with a corresponding loss of reputation) have done t same.
Most of the other cyclists who've doped are from countries that culturally just don't see the big deal. Hence national doping authorities being happy with a slap on the wrist, and sponsors not being bothered about recriminations as there's no corresponding loss of reputation.
Is that right? No. Not in my view. But then I share (although probably to a lesser extent) the American desire for punishment when the desired fair play doesn't exist. Whilst Spain still lauds confirmed dopers, along with France and Germany, there will be disparate treatment of those found guilty...
What can be changed to prevent this? Unfortunately there's no solution I can see, as the whole system is based on local authorities operating under a global code - but the global oversight has no teeth, nor can I see a mechanism that would provide them.
USADA, being American, have seen an injustice and gone for the throat. I don't think many disagree with that. American sponsors, knowing that the American public will see complicity if they don't (with a corresponding loss of reputation) have done t same.
Most of the other cyclists who've doped are from countries that culturally just don't see the big deal. Hence national doping authorities being happy with a slap on the wrist, and sponsors not being bothered about recriminations as there's no corresponding loss of reputation.
Is that right? No. Not in my view. But then I share (although probably to a lesser extent) the American desire for punishment when the desired fair play doesn't exist. Whilst Spain still lauds confirmed dopers, along with France and Germany, there will be disparate treatment of those found guilty...
What can be changed to prevent this? Unfortunately there's no solution I can see, as the whole system is based on local authorities operating under a global code - but the global oversight has no teeth, nor can I see a mechanism that would provide them.
It would seem that LA thought he was untouchable due to those who supported him. There is a massive cultural difference of course but it is not all one way. The USA supports its interests and if LA had used a different strategy then he might be cycling now. But he didn't.
He took a risk and it didn't pay off. I would assume, and it is an assumption, that if he'd stayed in control of the revelations he'd have come out the other end a damn sight richer than he looks likely to be now.
The other cyclists, who coughed at an early stage, had, perhaps, less conceit and found the cap-in-hand requirement much easier to perform.
The idea of Spain still lauding their corrupt cyclists and the USA damning theirs is not quite right. There still is considerable support for LA in the USA. The difference is that LA is up against lawyers, and in the USA lawyers rule. Where there's 60% to be creamed off the top, there's pressure to proceed.
What we are seeing now is nothing to do with punishment for the damage he's done to the sport. It's those who think they can have a bit of the corpse.
He took a risk and it didn't pay off. I would assume, and it is an assumption, that if he'd stayed in control of the revelations he'd have come out the other end a damn sight richer than he looks likely to be now.
The other cyclists, who coughed at an early stage, had, perhaps, less conceit and found the cap-in-hand requirement much easier to perform.
The idea of Spain still lauding their corrupt cyclists and the USA damning theirs is not quite right. There still is considerable support for LA in the USA. The difference is that LA is up against lawyers, and in the USA lawyers rule. Where there's 60% to be creamed off the top, there's pressure to proceed.
What we are seeing now is nothing to do with punishment for the damage he's done to the sport. It's those who think they can have a bit of the corpse.
And didn't someone seriously try to take him to court over a book they had bought written by him which they enjoyed initially but following the lies they didn't as such wanted millions ?
WTF is that about.
Why are the lawyers not going after the bike makers who sold millions of bikes and kit on the back of his lies all those sales a drug sales so profits should be fined.
As a side question how on watch can BP be paying out more than the total cost of Katrina and counting for an incident which cannot compare - note all those shrimp companies they said would be out of business for life... Seems to be thriving now does that mean a rebate for British Petrolium?
Actually as BP had to sell assets at the peak prices pretty much you have to wonder how much the writing down of assets is costing its competitors
.
What about Haliburton? $400k fine v $40billions.... Really.
WTF is that about.
Why are the lawyers not going after the bike makers who sold millions of bikes and kit on the back of his lies all those sales a drug sales so profits should be fined.
As a side question how on watch can BP be paying out more than the total cost of Katrina and counting for an incident which cannot compare - note all those shrimp companies they said would be out of business for life... Seems to be thriving now does that mean a rebate for British Petrolium?
Actually as BP had to sell assets at the peak prices pretty much you have to wonder how much the writing down of assets is costing its competitors
. What about Haliburton? $400k fine v $40billions.... Really.
Welshbeef said:
Another one question why don't you want all the other EPO dopers and cheats banned for life and have punitive fines? What about our UK 100m sprinter drug doper?
Didn't our boy Bradley use the same "saddle sore" corrida cream that lance did and just like lance was found out and had to give the perscritpion after the fact rather than in advance...... (Might have Wiggings mixed with the other good UK cyclist but he same applies).
Lastly if we talk about totally blown out of the water results - why isn't there any questions or lots of testing Usain Bolt? I mean to be that far ahead with hardly any history seems just too good to be true. Maybe an amazing doping going on right now which the testers simply have not found (or not).
There is so much info to link Bolt with doping that you have to be blind or a fantasist to ignore it... Bolt was running 19.9s for the 200m consistently from 2005-2007 only once dipping into the 19.7s and even winning the 2007 Worlds in 19.9s..... then boom, come Beijing in 2008 is a 19.3s man....Didn't our boy Bradley use the same "saddle sore" corrida cream that lance did and just like lance was found out and had to give the perscritpion after the fact rather than in advance...... (Might have Wiggings mixed with the other good UK cyclist but he same applies).
Lastly if we talk about totally blown out of the water results - why isn't there any questions or lots of testing Usain Bolt? I mean to be that far ahead with hardly any history seems just too good to be true. Maybe an amazing doping going on right now which the testers simply have not found (or not).
As for all those tests, United States Olympic Gold Medalist Marion Jones proudly proclaimed that she passed more than 160 drug tests in her career. The fact remains that she won three gold medals at the 2000 Olympics while passing the supposedly stringent requirements of Olympic WADA testing.
And yet, despite breaking world records in the 100m and 200m sprints; despite being romantically involved with and coached by Olympic shot-putter CJ Hunter who tested positive for steroids four times leading up to the 2000 Olympics and was subsequently banned by the ITAF; despite being romantically involved with and coached by Olympic sprinter Tim Montgomery who tested positive for steroids and was subsequently banned; despite training under track coach Trevor Graham who has been banned for life from track and field; and despite her affiliation with BALCO Labs and the insistence of BALCO president Victor Conte who admitted to injecting Marion Jones with steroids, the general public and sports journalists were still gullible enough to believe Marion Jones was in fact, a clean athlete because she didnt fail a drugs test....
On October 5, 2007, Jones admitted to lying to federal agents under oath about her use of steroids prior to the 2000 Summer Olympics and pleaded guilty at the US District Court for the Southern District of New York (in White Plains). She confessed to Judge Kenneth Karas that she had made false statements regarding the BALCO case and a check-fraud case. She was released on her own recognizance but was required to surrender both her US and Belizean passports, pending sentencing in January. Although a maximum sentence of five years could be imposed, the prosecution recommended no more than six months as part of Jones' plea bargain.
After her admission, Jones held a press conference, where she finally publicly admitted taking steroids before the Sydney 2000 Summer Olympics and acknowledged that she had, in fact, lied when she previously denied steroid use in statements to the press, to various sports agencies, and to two grand juries.
As Marion Jones proved, testing clean means absolutely nothing
Coaching staff are as good as chemists these days, they have extracted the maxmimum potential from the human body and are now looking at other ways to make their athletes go faster. They know exactly how the PEDs work, perfect the administration cycle and thus know exactly when their athlete will be at their peak but also test clean.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 18th February 21:20
Indoor athletics coming up and Russian's seem to be some what tainted. No st.
Why I don't really go with the "Burn Armstrong" brigade is professional sport is rife with drug takers.
My sporting hero is Tom Simpson he had a choice when he got to the continent to race in 1960 be average and clean or a winner and dope. It cost him his life but I still admire and respect him.
Many people would have known of Armstrong's drug taking programme but remained silent. Some of his sponsors made a fortune from association with him.
I have never met Lance Armstrong if I did I doubt we would be friends but I dislike people being made scapegoats and blaming him for everything bad in cycling will not make cycling clean.
If you ever watched Chris Boardmans career you will have seen someone who had all the natural ability and skill's required to succeed but unlike his peers when a major mountain stage occurred in the TDF he could not replicate his performance day after day. No st he couldn't because his body could not recover quickly enough and yet this man had all the engine that his competitors had.
t.Why I don't really go with the "Burn Armstrong" brigade is professional sport is rife with drug takers.
My sporting hero is Tom Simpson he had a choice when he got to the continent to race in 1960 be average and clean or a winner and dope. It cost him his life but I still admire and respect him.
Many people would have known of Armstrong's drug taking programme but remained silent. Some of his sponsors made a fortune from association with him.
I have never met Lance Armstrong if I did I doubt we would be friends but I dislike people being made scapegoats and blaming him for everything bad in cycling will not make cycling clean.
If you ever watched Chris Boardmans career you will have seen someone who had all the natural ability and skill's required to succeed but unlike his peers when a major mountain stage occurred in the TDF he could not replicate his performance day after day. No s
t he couldn't because his body could not recover quickly enough and yet this man had all the engine that his competitors had.johnxjsc1985 said:
Indoor athletics coming up and Russian's seem to be some what tainted. No st.
Why I don't really go with the "Burn Armstrong" brigade is professional sport is rife with drug takers.
My sporting hero is Tom Simpson he had a choice when he got to the continent to race in 1960 be average and clean or a winner and dope. It cost him his life but I still admire and respect him.
Many people would have known of Armstrong's drug taking programme but remained silent. Some of his sponsors made a fortune from association with him.
I have never met Lance Armstrong if I did I doubt we would be friends but I dislike people being made scapegoats and blaming him for everything bad in cycling will not make cycling clean.
If you ever watched Chris Boardmans career you will have seen someone who had all the natural ability and skill's required to succeed but unlike his peers when a major mountain stage occurred in the TDF he could not replicate his performance day after day. No st he couldn't because his body could not recover quickly enough and yet this man had all the engine that his competitors had.
Its been done to death but what Lance did was way more than just take drugs, in order to facilitate his own success, he pretty much made doping a cultural norm within cycling and becuase of his actions, put pressure on other teams and riders to go down the same route, riders who previously would have had no desire or need to take PEDs were heavily encouraged to dope by their team in order to put up a reasonable challenge to US Postal/Discovery... Everyone in the peloton knew what was going on but they had nothing to gain from talking and Lance had already used his power to silence others. I agree he is a bit of a scapegoat because the likes of the UCI knew what was going on but they also knew in Lance, they had a marketing tool worth millions that was brinign huge sums of money into the sport. For me its the same as Bolt and the IAAF, if Bolt is at a Diamond League event, it will sell out, if he isnt, it will be 3/4 full, if Bolt is doping and the IAAF know about it, they are going to keep schtum...t.Why I don't really go with the "Burn Armstrong" brigade is professional sport is rife with drug takers.
My sporting hero is Tom Simpson he had a choice when he got to the continent to race in 1960 be average and clean or a winner and dope. It cost him his life but I still admire and respect him.
Many people would have known of Armstrong's drug taking programme but remained silent. Some of his sponsors made a fortune from association with him.
I have never met Lance Armstrong if I did I doubt we would be friends but I dislike people being made scapegoats and blaming him for everything bad in cycling will not make cycling clean.
If you ever watched Chris Boardmans career you will have seen someone who had all the natural ability and skill's required to succeed but unlike his peers when a major mountain stage occurred in the TDF he could not replicate his performance day after day. No s
t he couldn't because his body could not recover quickly enough and yet this man had all the engine that his competitors had.Boardman was always a track rider, he never trained to be a GT rider and thus didnt really have the same engine as the others. He had no intention of ever doing a full three weeks as his focus was always the track and then, come the tour, ride the prolopgue, get yellow and earn his sponsors some air time then plan to pull out after a few days. Sure he could ride at GT pace for a few days but was never going to challenge.
pablo said:
Its been done to death but what Lance did was way more than just take drugs, in order to facilitate his own success, he pretty much made doping a cultural norm within cycling and becuase of his actions, put pressure on other teams and riders to go down the same route, riders who previously would have had no desire or need to take PEDs were heavily encouraged to dope by their team in order to put up a reasonable challenge to US Postal/Discovery... Everyone in the peloton knew what was going on but they had nothing to gain from talking and Lance had already used his power to silence others. I agree he is a bit of a scapegoat because the likes of the UCI knew what was going on but they also knew in Lance, they had a marketing tool worth millions that was brinign huge sums of money into the sport. For me its the same as Bolt and the IAAF, if Bolt is at a Diamond League event, it will sell out, if he isnt, it will be 3/4 full, if Bolt is doping and the IAAF know about it, they are going to keep schtum...
Boardman was always a track rider, he never trained to be a GT rider and thus didnt really have the same engine as the others. He had no intention of ever doing a full three weeks as his focus was always the track and then, come the tour, ride the prolopgue, get yellow and earn his sponsors some air time then plan to pull out after a few days. Sure he could ride at GT pace for a few days but was never going to challenge.
The dope existed long before he was born in cycling and continued though his childhood and before he hit the big league. Are you naive enough to think a young first timer could suddenly get in and then dictate to everyone what was the new norm. Crazy to think a what 18yo or heck even a 30yo could have so much power and influence over others. Boardman was always a track rider, he never trained to be a GT rider and thus didnt really have the same engine as the others. He had no intention of ever doing a full three weeks as his focus was always the track and then, come the tour, ride the prolopgue, get yellow and earn his sponsors some air time then plan to pull out after a few days. Sure he could ride at GT pace for a few days but was never going to challenge.
Its bull s
t. He cheated a lot - possibly caused his balls needing removal and nearly died. He made that choice live by the sword and all that.
He was a nasty person -- well break this down he was protecting his cheating what alternative did he have come clean which wasn't an option.
He was arrogant still is --- um lots are who are at the top of their game. Heck the other week Shirly Carter (Eastenders actress) shouted at someone in the street "don't you know who I am you ducking idiot"
He raised global awareness about testicular cancer. Regardless what anyone thinks of him he physically has saved people's lives by getting rid of the nonsense where plenty of men would simply ignore any lumps and wouldn't even contemplate letting a doctor check out his balls. This alone saving lives is huge - even if it was simply a by product and he could see it as a chance for him to gain more £ so what if it has saved LIVES its worth every penny.
Most and by that >75% of all top flight riders cheated by doping too.
Did the others cheat on wives - be nasty on divorce etc
A certain Brit tested +ive for the exact same bum cream as LA did yet LA banned on that the Brit not.... Why? Has to be the same playing field.
Either ban everyone for life for drugs or a sliding scale for the drugs.
Remove doctors practicing certificate
Ban team owners to have any involvement with any sport again - or even allowed to be a director of a company
Fine the sponsors for any profits they have earned from the success of any cheats --- this threat alone would change it overnight. No sponsors no TDF or it would go amateur again.
Why not set up a second tour with zero prize money and only for amateurs. This would be great to watch - just like CART is over F1
pablo said:
Its been done to death but what Lance did was way more than just take drugs, in order to facilitate his own success, he pretty much made doping a cultural norm within cycling and becuase of his actions, put pressure on other teams and riders to go down the same route, riders who previously would have had no desire or need to take PEDs were heavily encouraged to dope by their team in order to put up a reasonable challenge to US Postal/Discovery... Everyone in the peloton knew what was going on but they had nothing to gain from talking and Lance had already used his power to silence others. I agree he is a bit of a scapegoat because the likes of the UCI knew what was going on but they also knew in Lance, they had a marketing tool worth millions that was brinign huge sums of money into the sport. For me its the same as Bolt and the IAAF, if Bolt is at a Diamond League event, it will sell out, if he isnt, it will be 3/4 full, if Bolt is doping and the IAAF know about it, they are going to keep schtum...
Boardman was always a track rider, he never trained to be a GT rider and thus didnt really have the same engine as the others. He had no intention of ever doing a full three weeks as his focus was always the track and then, come the tour, ride the prolopgue, get yellow and earn his sponsors some air time then plan to pull out after a few days. Sure he could ride at GT pace for a few days but was never going to challenge.
you really need to get your facts straight you assume an awful lot in this post.Boardman was always a track rider, he never trained to be a GT rider and thus didnt really have the same engine as the others. He had no intention of ever doing a full three weeks as his focus was always the track and then, come the tour, ride the prolopgue, get yellow and earn his sponsors some air time then plan to pull out after a few days. Sure he could ride at GT pace for a few days but was never going to challenge.
In the 60's the theory in the peleton was if it takes 10 pills to kill you then take 9.Drugs didn't arrive in the Peleton just because Armstrong brought them he just
Chris Boardmans engine was as good as you could get to ride a GT his problem was he was clean and couldn't recover as well as riders who were taking drugs. You need to look at his achievements and understand what sort of rider achieves what he achieved his hour records prove the type of engine he had and he was Gan's team leader and therefore a Tour rider.
TdF riders were taking amphetamines in the early 1930s of course Lance didnt introduce drugs to cycling!... I said his actions made doping an acceptable practice throughout the peloton in the 1990s/2000s. Lance's reasoning was if he had to dope to win, he was going to make damn sure the rest were doping too...
Boardmans's problem was osteoporosis and Festina....
Boardmans's problem was osteoporosis and Festina....
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 19th February 12:41
pablo said:
TdF riders were taking amphetamines in the early 1930s of course Lance didnt introduce drugs to cycling!... I said his actions made doping an acceptable practice throughout the peloton in the 1990s/2000s. Lance's reasoning was if he had to dope to win, he was going to make damn sure the rest were doping too...
He did indeed professionalise drug taking. but those who complained about how they had to dope or get kicked of the team had that choice didn't they.Cycling is my favourite sport despite its darker side but unlike Athletics or Swimming at least as a Sport it owns up to the problem
pablo said:
TdF riders were taking amphetamines in the early 1930s of course Lance didnt introduce drugs to cycling!... I said his actions made doping an acceptable practice throughout the peloton in the 1990s/2000s. Lance's reasoning was if he had to dope to win, he was going to make damn sure the rest were doping too...
Hold on LA first competed in the TDF in 1995Then in 1995 he was diagnosed with ball cancer - he finally returned to serious cycling in 1998.
So he competed for 4 years in the 90's
95/96/98/99.
He was 24 when he first competed and a junior in the team but did very well. Clearly no one on their first year @24 has the gravitas and influence to force the teams to do drugs.
So at best it was 3 years / I'd wager just 98/99 as 96 he's still a rookie and again 1 year in how on earth can you carry any influence? Me thinks not
So who was influencing all the cyclists in 1990/91/92/93/94/9
Yes the dopers had a choice but for years some of us have argued it was never a simple black and white choice. You are a young rider, new to the team having spent a few years beasting yourself through the amateur racing circuits on the Continent, you arent perfomring, you now have soigneurs giving you stuff that they claim is just vitamins, team managers demanding results, friends and other riders telling you its all ok and that the tests come back clean and nothing to fall back on if you turn your back and walk.... so yeah its a simple choice....
Compare it to a business, your boss tells you to go find some confidential pricing info from a competitotr, its not legal, you know you are doing something wrong but you might get sacked if you dont do it, the job market isnt bouyant in your field, you have a mortgage and a family..... so what do you do?!
Compare it to a business, your boss tells you to go find some confidential pricing info from a competitotr, its not legal, you know you are doing something wrong but you might get sacked if you dont do it, the job market isnt bouyant in your field, you have a mortgage and a family..... so what do you do?!
Armstrong in 1993
1st World Road Race Champion UCI Road World Championships
1st US National Road Race Champion
1st Stage 8 Tour de France
1st Overall Tour of America
1st Trofeo Laigueglia
1st Thrift Drug Classic
1st Overall Kmart West Virginia Classic
1st Prologue
1st Stage 1
2nd Overall Tour du Pont
1st Stage 5
3rd Overall Tour of Sweden
1st Stage 3
So yeah, pretty much an amateur really!... No influence there, no way....
1st World Road Race Champion UCI Road World Championships
1st US National Road Race Champion
1st Stage 8 Tour de France
1st Overall Tour of America
1st Trofeo Laigueglia
1st Thrift Drug Classic
1st Overall Kmart West Virginia Classic
1st Prologue
1st Stage 1
2nd Overall Tour du Pont
1st Stage 5
3rd Overall Tour of Sweden
1st Stage 3
So yeah, pretty much an amateur really!... No influence there, no way....
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 19th February 12:54
pablo said:
Yes the dopers had a choice but for years some of us have argued it was never a simple black and white choice. You are a young rider, new to the team having spent a few years beasting yourself through the amateur racing circuits on the Continent, you arent perfomring, you now have soigneurs giving you stuff that they claim is just vitamins, team managers demanding results, friends and other riders telling you its all ok and that the tests come back clean and nothing to fall back on if you turn your back and walk.... so yeah its a simple choice....
Compare it to a business, your boss tells you to go find some confidential pricing info from a competitotr, its not legal, you know you are doing something wrong but you might get sacked if you dont do it, the job market isnt bouyant in your field, you have a mortgage and a family..... so what do you do?!
~I am not saying in their position I wouldn't do the same but they had a choice so don't go all Coy about it when you get caught.Compare it to a business, your boss tells you to go find some confidential pricing info from a competitotr, its not legal, you know you are doing something wrong but you might get sacked if you dont do it, the job market isnt bouyant in your field, you have a mortgage and a family..... so what do you do?!
I know and have know about half a dozen people who have ridden the TDF going back to the 60's.
One of them told me one of the first conversations he had with his soigneur was what drugs did he want as you cant ride the TDF on rice cakes and water.
Its clear that the UCI has been playing catch up and maybe that's where they like to be. What message did they give to the World when they gave Astana a license.
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