Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
As long as sport remains competitive there will always be people willing to risk doping, cycling or not, Armstrong or not.
Him being out of the sport for 4 years has nothing to do with it, he didn't start the doping culture and his exit from the sport clearly hasn't ended it.
There's no doubt some riders are still doping, look how many Astana riders have been caught in the last few months - 4!
But I feel 90% is an exaggeration, more stringent tests and controls are in place now at the Elite level so why aren't more being caught?
The dopers can't be that clever or far ahead of the game if 4 riders from one team get caught so it's my opinion that doping is on the decline but there are still clearly issues.
Him being out of the sport for 4 years has nothing to do with it, he didn't start the doping culture and his exit from the sport clearly hasn't ended it.
There's no doubt some riders are still doping, look how many Astana riders have been caught in the last few months - 4!
But I feel 90% is an exaggeration, more stringent tests and controls are in place now at the Elite level so why aren't more being caught?
The dopers can't be that clever or far ahead of the game if 4 riders from one team get caught so it's my opinion that doping is on the decline but there are still clearly issues.
Edited by Matt_N on Monday 9th March 08:04
Welshbeef said:
So there are plenty of Lance Armstrongs in the field today and have been all along.
Let's stop the individual witch hunt led by a now disgraced sports body clearly trying to cover up its huge failings. Really feel for the sport as the governing body has been diabolical and by being weak encouraged the doping culture shame on them and moreso for trying to deflect than hands up caught.
The witch has been found. Armstrong brought doping to a new level and the Guardian article explains some of it.Let's stop the individual witch hunt led by a now disgraced sports body clearly trying to cover up its huge failings. Really feel for the sport as the governing body has been diabolical and by being weak encouraged the doping culture shame on them and moreso for trying to deflect than hands up caught.
I felt sorry for the bloke at one time but as more and more facts come to light, one has to say that his effect on the sport has been disasterous.
The other articles linked in the article show a trend that is of concern in many sports. Whether 'businessmen' are now putting in times equivalent to professionals due to EPO would have been doubted a few years ago. My son was a personal trainer for a while and reckoned that he could have make a lot more money by pushing drugs. They are everywhere.
It makes you wonder if amateur sports will be accessible in the future.
I know of 25 - 9 year old rugby players who have had heart attacks. Big blokes, full of muscle. Playing at a lowish level.
I can't see the justification for the word deflect. Both the governing body and Armstrong were guilty, but of different things. Armstrong was the start of the serious professional doping. It has continued but he went for the money and did not care about the sport.
Derek Smith said:
The witch has been found. Armstrong brought doping to a new level and the Guardian article explains some of it.
I felt sorry for the bloke at one time but as more and more facts come to light, one has to say that his effect on the sport has been disasterous.
The other articles linked in the article show a trend that is of concern in many sports. Whether 'businessmen' are now putting in times equivalent to professionals due to EPO would have been doubted a few years ago. My son was a personal trainer for a while and reckoned that he could have make a lot more money by pushing drugs. They are everywhere.
It makes you wonder if amateur sports will be accessible in the future.
I know of 25 - 9 year old rugby players who have had heart attacks. Big blokes, full of muscle. Playing at a lowish level.
I can't see the justification for the word deflect. Both the governing body and Armstrong were guilty, but of different things. Armstrong was the start of the serious professional doping. It has continued but he went for the money and did not care about the sport.
What about Dwane Chambers, Lawrance Dellalio, Ben Johnson, Tyson Gay,Asafa Powell,Floyd Landers, Marion Jones, Alberto Contador, entire Chinese swimming team, Mark McGwire, Michelle Smith, Nadzeya OstapchuckI felt sorry for the bloke at one time but as more and more facts come to light, one has to say that his effect on the sport has been disasterous.
The other articles linked in the article show a trend that is of concern in many sports. Whether 'businessmen' are now putting in times equivalent to professionals due to EPO would have been doubted a few years ago. My son was a personal trainer for a while and reckoned that he could have make a lot more money by pushing drugs. They are everywhere.
It makes you wonder if amateur sports will be accessible in the future.
I know of 25 - 9 year old rugby players who have had heart attacks. Big blokes, full of muscle. Playing at a lowish level.
I can't see the justification for the word deflect. Both the governing body and Armstrong were guilty, but of different things. Armstrong was the start of the serious professional doping. It has continued but he went for the money and did not care about the sport.
I can go on and on - so many predate Lance these influenced him to do it why not witch hunt them? Seems bonkers to think its only him that's caused it.
As for cancer he has single handedly created more awareness for testicular cancer globally than any other individual and has saved lives in so doing. That's a huge achievement which cannot be taken away from him especially when all he did was nasty individual bully who took some drugs while on a push bike. Sport is a past time saving lives -- try telling a nasty doctor who has saved lives he should be witch hunted ...
pablo said:
I rest my case...
Thing is you are at the other end of the spectrum so the same logic can be used against yourself rather than a more liberal approach. Give the guy a break its destroying his children's lives he cannot do anything now so others need to move on and arrest the UCI leaders ASAP.
Welshbeef said:
Give the guy a break its destroying his children's lives he cannot do anything now so others need to move on and arrest the UCI leaders ASAP.
The only person responsible for "destroying" his childrens lives is Lance himeslf. And he can do something about it, he can come clean tothe appropriate authorities and explain everything, how they did it, who htey bribed, when the did it, what races, the people invovled and the costs invovled.... but he wont because he revels in the attention so will drip feed information to ensure he remains relevant.
This whole 90% of the peloton are doping sensationalism is just farcical. In reality, 90% of the riders are unwilling to sign a waiver that would allow their samples to be used again and again for whatever purpose wihtout their approval, well there is a surprise....
How many of us tick that "dont add me to your mailing list, send me s
te, pass on my details to marketing companies" box when prompted to do so....
This whole 90% of the peloton are doping sensationalism is just farcical. In reality, 90% of the riders are unwilling to sign a waiver that would allow their samples to be used again and again for whatever purpose wihtout their approval, well there is a surprise....
How many of us tick that "dont add me to your mailing list, send me s
te, pass on my details to marketing companies" box when prompted to do so....lets be frank you cant find many 70 year old former professional cyclists they are all dead.
The 50's through to the 70's were primative in the drug taking and there was a saying that went something along the lines of "if it takes ten to kill you then I'll take nine".
When the 80's came along it got serious. The peleton is a closed shop and it does not surprise me that you dont have a load of people coming forward "grassing" is frowned upon.
The UCI isnt who I would choose to investigate the issue.
Give Lance an option of 20 years in jail or tell the truth and we might get somewhere.
What I do find interesting is that in my lifetime Cycling has struggled with the issue of drugs but always shyed away from it just when they get close to actually having a grown up conversation but when it comes to other sports Athletics in particular then the press seem less interested.
The 50's through to the 70's were primative in the drug taking and there was a saying that went something along the lines of "if it takes ten to kill you then I'll take nine".
When the 80's came along it got serious. The peleton is a closed shop and it does not surprise me that you dont have a load of people coming forward "grassing" is frowned upon.
The UCI isnt who I would choose to investigate the issue.
Give Lance an option of 20 years in jail or tell the truth and we might get somewhere.
What I do find interesting is that in my lifetime Cycling has struggled with the issue of drugs but always shyed away from it just when they get close to actually having a grown up conversation but when it comes to other sports Athletics in particular then the press seem less interested.
I agree but cycling has adopted the "the more we test the more we will catch" philosophy which looks bad on the sport in the short term because all we hear is more cases of riders getting caught and everyone assumes only cyclists are taking drugs because only cyclists get caught....
But the other sports have so much to lose and darent open that can of worms for fear of what might happen. Were every sport to acknowledge the possible use of drugs in top flight competitions, they would lose so much money in sponsorship etc that its easier for them to let cycling remain the fall guy.
How many rumours were flying around Nadal and the Spanish football team? How many rugby players do we think are taking PEDs? Too many times PEDs are associated with physical sports but datrts and snooker, where concentration is critical, could well be plagued with drugs like Ritalin etc.
But the other sports have so much to lose and darent open that can of worms for fear of what might happen. Were every sport to acknowledge the possible use of drugs in top flight competitions, they would lose so much money in sponsorship etc that its easier for them to let cycling remain the fall guy.
How many rumours were flying around Nadal and the Spanish football team? How many rugby players do we think are taking PEDs? Too many times PEDs are associated with physical sports but datrts and snooker, where concentration is critical, could well be plagued with drugs like Ritalin etc.
pablo said:
I agree but cycling has adopted the "the more we test the more we will catch" philosophy which looks bad on the sport in the short term because all we hear is more cases of riders getting caught and everyone assumes only cyclists are taking drugs because only cyclists get caught....
But the other sports have so much to lose and darent open that can of worms for fear of what might happen. Were every sport to acknowledge the possible use of drugs in top flight competitions, they would lose so much money in sponsorship etc that its easier for them to let cycling remain the fall guy.
How many rumours were flying around Nadal and the Spanish football team? How many rugby players do we think are taking PEDs? Too many times PEDs are associated with physical sports but datrts and snooker, where concentration is critical, could well be plagued with drugs like Ritalin etc.
If any proffesional sports Federation say they have a clean sport then I would love to hear from them.But the other sports have so much to lose and darent open that can of worms for fear of what might happen. Were every sport to acknowledge the possible use of drugs in top flight competitions, they would lose so much money in sponsorship etc that its easier for them to let cycling remain the fall guy.
How many rumours were flying around Nadal and the Spanish football team? How many rugby players do we think are taking PEDs? Too many times PEDs are associated with physical sports but datrts and snooker, where concentration is critical, could well be plagued with drugs like Ritalin etc.
There are one or two odd posters on this thread (against LA) it would appear that heads are deep in the sand and will never get out of those weeds and up into the helicopter.
He cheated - lots did
He bullied and threatened to sue 8 people - frankly big deal
He raised global testicular cancer awareness - certainly saved lives
His charity involvement ended up in donations increasing which was spent on good works for those suffering from potentially terminal illness
He got found out- grassed up by individuals equally complicit and gained financially yet they get away with 3 month bans no removal of winning position and no fines
Team owners - no fines and banning
The way some people post on here it goes the impression they rate LA in the same bracket as Ian Huntley.
Bloody chap cheated on a push bike -- in the grand scheme of things who cares really when all is said and done. Look at ISIS look at Ian Huntley look at anyone charged with GBH look at rapists look at pedophiles look at con men who have defrauded innocent people in the street look at Madoff
Then look at a chap on a push bike.
He cheated - lots did
He bullied and threatened to sue 8 people - frankly big deal
He raised global testicular cancer awareness - certainly saved lives
His charity involvement ended up in donations increasing which was spent on good works for those suffering from potentially terminal illness
He got found out- grassed up by individuals equally complicit and gained financially yet they get away with 3 month bans no removal of winning position and no fines
Team owners - no fines and banning
The way some people post on here it goes the impression they rate LA in the same bracket as Ian Huntley.
Bloody chap cheated on a push bike -- in the grand scheme of things who cares really when all is said and done. Look at ISIS look at Ian Huntley look at anyone charged with GBH look at rapists look at pedophiles look at con men who have defrauded innocent people in the street look at Madoff
Then look at a chap on a push bike.
Someone has to be to blame, its not the poor divils that are taking them now, its not the poor souls that also took them at the same time as LA. It's certainly not the governing body. Those on here alluding to the fact that if Armstrong tells the truth then all will be ok need to get real. It is a sport that has a history of being immersed and possibly leading in Drug Use. Armstrong took them, in fact he has already admitted as such has he not?? Those still harping and crowing on about Armstrong need to get their heads out of their holes, he is gone. Cycling needs to move on, those who are doping or those complicit need to be rooted out, simple as that. Stop blaming a man that has already been bombed out and look perhaps a little more closely to those still involved.
Welshbeef said:
What about Dwane Chambers, Lawrance Dellalio, Ben Johnson, Tyson Gay,Asafa Powell,Floyd Landers, Marion Jones, Alberto Contador, entire Chinese swimming team, Mark McGwire, Michelle Smith, Nadzeya Ostapchuck
I can go on and on - so many predate Lance these influenced him to do it why not witch hunt them? Seems bonkers to think its only him that's caused it.
As for cancer he has single handedly created more awareness for testicular cancer globally than any other individual and has saved lives in so doing. That's a huge achievement which cannot be taken away from him especially when all he did was nasty individual bully who took some drugs while on a push bike. Sport is a past time saving lives -- try telling a nasty doctor who has saved lives he should be witch hunted ...
That argument is nonsensical. Armstrong's cheating was at a much higher level, the sophistication was streets ahead. He moved cheating to an entirely new level. I can go on and on - so many predate Lance these influenced him to do it why not witch hunt them? Seems bonkers to think its only him that's caused it.
As for cancer he has single handedly created more awareness for testicular cancer globally than any other individual and has saved lives in so doing. That's a huge achievement which cannot be taken away from him especially when all he did was nasty individual bully who took some drugs while on a push bike. Sport is a past time saving lives -- try telling a nasty doctor who has saved lives he should be witch hunted ...
Yes, you can go on, as you have demonstrated on this subject.
I'm a bit keen on rugby union. I see the effects of drugs abuse in the sport and I know of young players who have had heart attacks, obviously brought on by abuse. My lad plays for an ambitious club but the coach tries his hardest not to put pressure on the players to bulk up. This costs us of course. We play other teams where there is doubt that their players are of the same mind.
Our tight five have improved no end this season, but some teams we will never better, not without our own Ferrari. So, thankfully, we will never beat them.
My lad used to be a personal trainer, in the gym for many hours a day. He has a tremendous physique but is light for his position. So he goes up against some officer worker who carries more weight and muscle. The pressure is on, especially for those who also work in offices and would want to play second row. Everyone wants to be good at their sport. Thankfully, some want to be good because of who they are and not how well they cheat.
This is what those like Armstrong do to 'my' sport. And what he did to his.
And as for cancer awareness, I think he's got more out of that that the general public has. And further, it is not too much to say that I found him inspiring. Someone who had nearly died could, by application, beat the world at his sport of choice. When I realised he was a cheat I found the down greater than the up. And that was before we discovered the extent of his cheating.
I would suggest that he had brought the level of cheating in cycling to the attention of many more people than testicular cancer.
Let us ignore the comments about Huntley and Madoff, firstly because they are irrelevant and secondly because they are pathetic.
You seem, finally, to accept that Armstrong is a cheat. Do you also accept that he brought doping to an entirely new level of sophistication? If you don’t then I suggest you need to read a few of the reports into his conduct, not to mention lots of books. Other riders did take drugs as well, none of them nine TdFs.
You accept that he bullied and threatened people. He seemed to suggest that this is acceptable behaviour. Some of those he bullied and threatened have suggested that their lives were extremely difficult for some period of time. He called one woman I prostitute at a time when he had the media at his disposal.
I accept he’s done a lot for charity. I accept that the tax systems in America are very generous to those who do a lot for charity.
The way Armstrong was expose was not just by individuals crossing him up. We can accept that Armstrong’s financial gain was nothing like the amount that many, including him no doubt, expected to end up with. Those who got away with less penalty for those who confessed completely, did not abuse the regulators, did not lead teams to anything like the level Armstrong did.
Had Armstrong confessed early on, by now he would have been a fair bit richer than he is likely to turn out to be, plus he would be cycling again and probably competing at a fairly high level.
As pointed out by another poster, the damage to Armstrong’s family life and his children is down entirely to him. Sometimes you have to accept that what you have done is wrong and we await Armstrong reaching that place.
I’ve not read anyone on here excusing other doping riders, or other spokespersons. So what makes it all right for Armstrong to cheat? Further, most of these other riders were sensible enough to make a full breast of it, probably for financial reasons, and so their penalties were lower.
From your arguments it would appear that you are upset that Armstrong has been penalised but that his team owners and managers have not been. This is a bewildering point of view.
You seem, finally, to accept that Armstrong is a cheat. Do you also accept that he brought doping to an entirely new level of sophistication? If you don’t then I suggest you need to read a few of the reports into his conduct, not to mention lots of books. Other riders did take drugs as well, none of them nine TdFs.
You accept that he bullied and threatened people. He seemed to suggest that this is acceptable behaviour. Some of those he bullied and threatened have suggested that their lives were extremely difficult for some period of time. He called one woman I prostitute at a time when he had the media at his disposal.
I accept he’s done a lot for charity. I accept that the tax systems in America are very generous to those who do a lot for charity.
The way Armstrong was expose was not just by individuals crossing him up. We can accept that Armstrong’s financial gain was nothing like the amount that many, including him no doubt, expected to end up with. Those who got away with less penalty for those who confessed completely, did not abuse the regulators, did not lead teams to anything like the level Armstrong did.
Had Armstrong confessed early on, by now he would have been a fair bit richer than he is likely to turn out to be, plus he would be cycling again and probably competing at a fairly high level.
As pointed out by another poster, the damage to Armstrong’s family life and his children is down entirely to him. Sometimes you have to accept that what you have done is wrong and we await Armstrong reaching that place.
I’ve not read anyone on here excusing other doping riders, or other spokespersons. So what makes it all right for Armstrong to cheat? Further, most of these other riders were sensible enough to make a full breast of it, probably for financial reasons, and so their penalties were lower.
From your arguments it would appear that you are upset that Armstrong has been penalised but that his team owners and managers have not been. This is a bewildering point of view.
Welshbeef bought into LA hook line and sinker and he is nit a cyclist so he can be forgiven a bit for that but people that have ridden a bike at any sort of level that believed LA was doing it on "panne e Aqua" are a laughing stock IMO.
We have reached a point post LA and drug taking is still there and flourishing in the amateur ranks because the gains out way the punishments, so until sport in general starts making being caught an end game for athletes then it will persist!
We have reached a point post LA and drug taking is still there and flourishing in the amateur ranks because the gains out way the punishments, so until sport in general starts making being caught an end game for athletes then it will persist!
The team owners knew what was going on and permitted it to happen. They allowed their employees to participate in activity which is strictly against the then current rules of the sport.
I'm struggling to understand how you do not think that is an issue?
Generally when an employee puts a company/organisation into disrepute /gross misconduct would be the charge management would act accordingly but they didn't they allowed this to continue as such they were complicit in the cheating and need to be reprimanded accordingly.
IF any of the sponsors incl US postal service had any suspicions of foul play and didn't formally raise it OR if they knew then they need to be pursued accordingly. This is he only way to eradicate such behaviour.
Do you not think the postal service the bike makers the countless sponsors made a fortune off of the TDF success? Of course they did. If they knew about the cheating don't you think they therefore are an organisation which needs to be fined/at the very last the public made aware and then the public can choose weather to buy a bike or whatever the sponsors produce.
Do we care that he was a nasty man? Do we care he called a lady a prostitute? I'm sure those directly facing such bullying might and general public might think tosser but let's be clear hundreds of millions if not billions of people every day are nasty people some to a lesser extent some to a much greater extent.
I'd say this part of the debate needs to be off the table - as its utterly irrelevant.
Are you saying Ben Johnson didn't push it to the extreme for his era? Yes he did so did all the others listed
So did Button at Honda when the entire team cheated with the large fuel tanks - complicit illegal cheating for a competitive advantage. They didn't come clean they were caught out by a random weight check during the race and hey your below min weight.... How's that possible??
I'm unsure how someone could be as gutted as you appear to be in the previous post when you discover he cheated... I get pissed off if Wales lose a rugby game, I don't like to lose at a board game, I didn't get demotivated when our own UK DwayneChanbers was caught.
Things is be gutted about would probably be things which impact me personally ie family and friends. That said I felt utterly devastated on Sennas death and frankly am gutted/filled with hope for Schumacher - and plenty of others.
How it would be such a downer is beyond - chill out and work out that the only person you can rely on is yourself then you'll never be facing depression unless you yourself bring it on.
I was pretty gutted about M Jackson not some hill billy cheating on a push bike.
I'm struggling to understand how you do not think that is an issue?
Generally when an employee puts a company/organisation into disrepute /gross misconduct would be the charge management would act accordingly but they didn't they allowed this to continue as such they were complicit in the cheating and need to be reprimanded accordingly.
IF any of the sponsors incl US postal service had any suspicions of foul play and didn't formally raise it OR if they knew then they need to be pursued accordingly. This is he only way to eradicate such behaviour.
Do you not think the postal service the bike makers the countless sponsors made a fortune off of the TDF success? Of course they did. If they knew about the cheating don't you think they therefore are an organisation which needs to be fined/at the very last the public made aware and then the public can choose weather to buy a bike or whatever the sponsors produce.
Do we care that he was a nasty man? Do we care he called a lady a prostitute? I'm sure those directly facing such bullying might and general public might think tosser but let's be clear hundreds of millions if not billions of people every day are nasty people some to a lesser extent some to a much greater extent.
I'd say this part of the debate needs to be off the table - as its utterly irrelevant.
Are you saying Ben Johnson didn't push it to the extreme for his era? Yes he did so did all the others listed
So did Button at Honda when the entire team cheated with the large fuel tanks - complicit illegal cheating for a competitive advantage. They didn't come clean they were caught out by a random weight check during the race and hey your below min weight.... How's that possible??
I'm unsure how someone could be as gutted as you appear to be in the previous post when you discover he cheated... I get pissed off if Wales lose a rugby game, I don't like to lose at a board game, I didn't get demotivated when our own UK DwayneChanbers was caught.
Things is be gutted about would probably be things which impact me personally ie family and friends. That said I felt utterly devastated on Sennas death and frankly am gutted/filled with hope for Schumacher - and plenty of others.
How it would be such a downer is beyond - chill out and work out that the only person you can rely on is yourself then you'll never be facing depression unless you yourself bring it on.
I was pretty gutted about M Jackson not some hill billy cheating on a push bike.
Grandfondo said:
Welshbeef bought into LA hook line and sinker and he is nit a cyclist so he can be forgiven a bit for that but people that have ridden a bike at any sort of level that believed LA was doing it on "panne e Aqua" are a laughing stock IMO.
We have reached a point post LA and drug taking is still there and flourishing in the amateur ranks because the gains out way the punishments, so until sport in general starts making being caught an end game for athletes then it will persist!
This 100%. We have reached a point post LA and drug taking is still there and flourishing in the amateur ranks because the gains out way the punishments, so until sport in general starts making being caught an end game for athletes then it will persist!
One big cheat gone banned for life yet he is still the big story yet the cheating continues.... System is broken people still heartbroken and devastated that LA cheated (I'm struggling why grown men would be impacted so much but each to their own ).
Sort out the governing body - UCI and WADA have to be disbanded and a new one set up to replace. How they can carry on punishing people yet they are complicit themselves is broaching on criminal charges not just cheating.
Go after all the team owners and the governing body individuals involved and ban them for life from all sports.
Also not sure how a push bike for needing body can ban someone from say becoming an F1 driver or an extreme Snowboarder.. More push bikes I get but the rest? They have no jurisdiction nor can they do it globally as not all countries sign up to those governing bodies. Arse covering at its highest - and possibly why LA was given such a buzzare punishment.
Currently LA legally cannot compete in a father son egg and spoon race... Or a fun run for charity. WHY?
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