Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
I had written a long post about cheating but to be honest I can't be f
ked because you either want a clean sport or you will have people like David Millar pulling on national jerseys and Vino's winning golds and running teams!
Letting convicted cheats into the Olympics just says it all really.
You either want a clean sport or you don't!
ked because you either want a clean sport or you will have people like David Millar pulling on national jerseys and Vino's winning golds and running teams!Letting convicted cheats into the Olympics just says it all really.
You either want a clean sport or you don't!
Welshbeef said:
One big cheat gone banned for life yet he is still the big story yet the cheating continues.... System is broken people still heartbroken and devastated that LA cheated (I'm struggling why grown men would be impacted so much but each to their own ).
Welshbeef said:
Things is be gutted about would probably be things which impact me personally ie family and friends. That said I felt utterly devastated on Sennas death and frankly am gutted/filled with hope for Schumacher - and plenty of others.
How it would be such a downer is beyond - chill out and work out that the only person you can rely on is yourself then you'll never be facing depression unless you yourself bring it on.
I was pretty gutted about M Jackson not some hill billy cheating on a push bike.
seriously? You struggle to comprehend why grown men would be impacted so much by this yet were utterly devasted when Senna died (also a cheat but he did a lot of good work for Brazilian orphans so hes ok in your book) and when Michael bloody Jackson died who was, well, who the fHow it would be such a downer is beyond - chill out and work out that the only person you can rely on is yourself then you'll never be facing depression unless you yourself bring it on.
I was pretty gutted about M Jackson not some hill billy cheating on a push bike.
k knows?!... Grandfondo said:
I had written a long post about cheating but to be honest I can't be fked because you either want a clean sport or you will have people like David Millar pulling on national jerseys and Vino's winning golds and running teams!
Letting convicted cheats into the Olympics just says it all really.
You either want a clean sport or you don't!
You're absolutely right, the time has come when people who take banned substances know exactly what they are doing, why they are doing it and what the consequences are. There is no excuse for taking PEDs in the here and now, no "I didnt know what i was taking" or "the soigneur made me do it". What we can not do however, is apply todays sentances to yesterdays crimes. ked because you either want a clean sport or you will have people like David Millar pulling on national jerseys and Vino's winning golds and running teams!Letting convicted cheats into the Olympics just says it all really.
You either want a clean sport or you don't!
pablo said:
seriously? You struggle to comprehend why grown men would be impacted so much by this yet were utterly devasted when Senna died (also a cheat but he did a lot of good work for Brazilian orphans so hes ok in your book) and when Michael bloody Jackson died who was, well, who the fk knows?!...
Exactly Senna cheating didn't really bother me the passing of a great talent did. k knows?!... Did you lose sleep about LA getting caught? How's about Ben Johnson cry to sleep did you? Needed lithium from the quack to get over it... Seriously. How do you handle the weekly shop when your favourite must have sold out... Hair pulled out screaming in store
I'd probably be more annoyed at dropping a sausage into the BBQ through the grill than LA cheating on a push bike.
pablo said:
Grandfondo said:
I had written a long post about cheating but to be honest I can't be fked because you either want a clean sport or you will have people like David Millar pulling on national jerseys and Vino's winning golds and running teams!
Letting convicted cheats into the Olympics just says it all really.
You either want a clean sport or you don't!
You're absolutely right, the time has come when people who take banned substances know exactly what they are doing, why they are doing it and what the consequences are. There is no excuse for taking PEDs in the here and now, no "I didnt know what i was taking" or "the soigneur made me do it". What we can not do however, is apply todays sentances to yesterdays crimes. ked because you either want a clean sport or you will have people like David Millar pulling on national jerseys and Vino's winning golds and running teams!Letting convicted cheats into the Olympics just says it all really.
You either want a clean sport or you don't!
s back into the worlds biggest sporting arena!Welshbeef said:
The team owners knew what was going on and permitted it to happen. They allowed their employees to participate in activity which is strictly against the then current rules of the sport.
I'm struggling to understand how you do not think that is an issue?
Generally when an employee puts a company/organisation into disrepute /gross misconduct would be the charge management would act accordingly but they didn't they allowed this to continue as such they were complicit in the cheating and need to be reprimanded accordingly.
IF any of the sponsors incl US postal service had any suspicions of foul play and didn't formally raise it OR if they knew then they need to be pursued accordingly. This is he only way to eradicate such behaviour.
Do you not think the postal service the bike makers the countless sponsors made a fortune off of the TDF success? Of course they did. If they knew about the cheating don't you think they therefore are an organisation which needs to be fined/at the very last the public made aware and then the public can choose weather to buy a bike or whatever the sponsors produce.
Do we care that he was a nasty man? Do we care he called a lady a prostitute? I'm sure those directly facing such bullying might and general public might think tosser but let's be clear hundreds of millions if not billions of people every day are nasty people some to a lesser extent some to a much greater extent.
I'd say this part of the debate needs to be off the table - as its utterly irrelevant.
Are you saying Ben Johnson didn't push it to the extreme for his era? Yes he did so did all the others listed
So did Button at Honda when the entire team cheated with the large fuel tanks - complicit illegal cheating for a competitive advantage. They didn't come clean they were caught out by a random weight check during the race and hey your below min weight.... How's that possible??
I'm unsure how someone could be as gutted as you appear to be in the previous post when you discover he cheated... I get pissed off if Wales lose a rugby game, I don't like to lose at a board game, I didn't get demotivated when our own UK DwayneChanbers was caught.
Things is be gutted about would probably be things which impact me personally ie family and friends. That said I felt utterly devastated on Sennas death and frankly am gutted/filled with hope for Schumacher - and plenty of others.
How it would be such a downer is beyond - chill out and work out that the only person you can rely on is yourself then you'll never be facing depression unless you yourself bring it on.
I was pretty gutted about M Jackson not some hill billy cheating on a push bike.
I think the guilty should be punished. That's my whole basis. You can't, though, do what you seem to be doing if you read your post carefully, that the fact that they were not punished in some way mitigates Armstrong's offence to the extent that he should not be punished in accordance with normal practice. I'm struggling to understand how you do not think that is an issue?
Generally when an employee puts a company/organisation into disrepute /gross misconduct would be the charge management would act accordingly but they didn't they allowed this to continue as such they were complicit in the cheating and need to be reprimanded accordingly.
IF any of the sponsors incl US postal service had any suspicions of foul play and didn't formally raise it OR if they knew then they need to be pursued accordingly. This is he only way to eradicate such behaviour.
Do you not think the postal service the bike makers the countless sponsors made a fortune off of the TDF success? Of course they did. If they knew about the cheating don't you think they therefore are an organisation which needs to be fined/at the very last the public made aware and then the public can choose weather to buy a bike or whatever the sponsors produce.
Do we care that he was a nasty man? Do we care he called a lady a prostitute? I'm sure those directly facing such bullying might and general public might think tosser but let's be clear hundreds of millions if not billions of people every day are nasty people some to a lesser extent some to a much greater extent.
I'd say this part of the debate needs to be off the table - as its utterly irrelevant.
Are you saying Ben Johnson didn't push it to the extreme for his era? Yes he did so did all the others listed
So did Button at Honda when the entire team cheated with the large fuel tanks - complicit illegal cheating for a competitive advantage. They didn't come clean they were caught out by a random weight check during the race and hey your below min weight.... How's that possible??
I'm unsure how someone could be as gutted as you appear to be in the previous post when you discover he cheated... I get pissed off if Wales lose a rugby game, I don't like to lose at a board game, I didn't get demotivated when our own UK DwayneChanbers was caught.
Things is be gutted about would probably be things which impact me personally ie family and friends. That said I felt utterly devastated on Sennas death and frankly am gutted/filled with hope for Schumacher - and plenty of others.
How it would be such a downer is beyond - chill out and work out that the only person you can rely on is yourself then you'll never be facing depression unless you yourself bring it on.
I was pretty gutted about M Jackson not some hill billy cheating on a push bike.
It has been said a number of times that Armstrong's punishment would have been equivalent to those who had gone before if he had confessed. However, he did not. It was always conditional, a bit at a time. He also attacked the regulatory body, suggesting that he was totally innocent and that they had invented much. This was proved wrong.
I deal with discipline at my club. I advise players on the likely outcome. If Armstrong had asked for my advice and followed it, he would have been cycling now. But he chose not to and instead threatened, used his fortune to intimidate. He also cost the regulatory body a great deal of money. Yet, all he had to do was confess to those items that there was evidence for.
That's why his punishment is greater than those who, I have no doubt, sought legal advice and followed it.
I know that precedent is not overwhelming in discipline for sporting organisations but fair play must be, and if players who had cooperated were punished to the same extent as Armstrong then it would be unfair.
I'm not so competitive as you. I like the competition. I like to win, but if I lose I think that there are things to learn. If I'm beaten by someone better, I try to get better. When England lose to a better team, I'm cool with it. Victory and defeat are both imposters and should be treated just the same.
If I was beaten by someone cheating, or indeed won, I would put them away to the regulatory body. I'd have no problem with that and would consider it worthwhile.
Just to emphasise: I've not said that those who also benefited from his cheating should not be punished but there is little doubt that his was the motivating force. However, I think that Armstrong was dealt with in exactly the same manner as anyone with regards to punishment. If he ignored advice, then he's a fool as well as a cheat.
Derek Smith said:
It has been said a number of times that Armstrong's punishment would have been equivalent to those who had gone before if he had confessed.
Contador never admitted cheating but returned 12 months later.Armstrong created a lot of enemies and p****d important people off, therefore they took great pleasure in giving him a life ban which wasn't consistent with others. In my opinion this was wrong and gave LA the opportunity to cry "it's not fair, I only did the same as everyone else"
They should have given him 2yrs for drugs and 10yrs for brining the sport into disrepute for all the bullying.
WestyCarl said:
Contador never admitted cheating but returned 12 months later.
Armstrong created a lot of enemies and p****d important people off, therefore they took great pleasure in giving him a life ban which wasn't consistent with others. In my opinion this was wrong and gave LA the opportunity to cry "it's not fair, I only did the same as everyone else"
They should have given him 2yrs for drugs and 10yrs for brining the sport into disrepute for all the bullying.
I couldn't give a sArmstrong created a lot of enemies and p****d important people off, therefore they took great pleasure in giving him a life ban which wasn't consistent with others. In my opinion this was wrong and gave LA the opportunity to cry "it's not fair, I only did the same as everyone else"
They should have given him 2yrs for drugs and 10yrs for brining the sport into disrepute for all the bullying.
t about bullying. Lots of very successful people are bullies...it's the nature of the beast. London424 said:
I couldn't give a st about bullying. Lots of very successful people are bullies...it's the nature of the beast.
I tend to agree with what you've said. Also Armstrong was one of the last 'patrons' of the peleton, I'm certainly not advocating his behaviour but years ago other riders ruled the peleton with an iron fist - people like Hinault and Merckx etc. As for bringing the sport into disrepute - honestly don't make me laugh. The sport had disappeared down the plughole long before Armstrong climbed all over it.t about bullying. Lots of very successful people are bullies...it's the nature of the beast. mcelliott said:
I tend to agree with what you've said. Also Armstrong was one of the last 'patrons' of the peleton, I'm certainly not advocating his behaviour but years ago other riders ruled the peleton with an iron fist - people like Hinault and Merckx etc. As for bringing the sport into disrepute - honestly don't make me laugh. The sport had disappeared down the plughole long before Armstrong climbed all over it.
some think the sport was invented in the 80's the fact is that the close nature of the peleton and keeping things within its group goes back generations.Armstrong was no more a bully than any of the greats from the 40's through to his own time. the top pro's were actually like royality with in the peleton and they ruled accordingly.Again, the point is that Armstrong didnt keep it in the peloton, he went way outside the world of cycling, he used his influence through livestrong to establish himself as much more than just a "push bike racer". For a few years, he was professional cycling and no article was complete without a picture or reference to him regardless of the race, he was also cancer survivor, cancer spokesman, politician, celebrity etc etc.
So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
pablo said:
Again, the point is that Armstrong didnt keep it in the peloton, he went way outside the world of cycling, he used his influence through livestrong to establish himself as much more than just a "push bike racer". For a few years, he was professional cycling and no article was complete without a picture or reference to him regardless of the race, he was also cancer survivor, cancer spokesman, politician, celebrity etc etc.
So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
Agreed. He was not just doing EPO/etc like everyone else.So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
Just one example of his "untouchable" fraud and Libel (beyond blackmail, bribery and collusion with the UCI): he sued the Sunday Times when it was suggested he may not be squeaky clean - and won - with the abject apology and financial benefit that followed "The Sunday Times has confirmed to Mr Armstrong that it never intended to accuse him of being guilty of taking any performance enhancing drugs and sincerely apologised for any such impression. Mr Armstrong has always vigorously opposed drugs in sport and appreciates the Sunday Times‘s efforts to also address the problem."
If he was simply cheating for better results and bullying some people then I agree that current circumstances would be disproportionate. But it's far, far more than that. Welsh, etc, should read up a bit more.
pablo said:
Again, the point is that Armstrong didnt keep it in the peloton, he went way outside the world of cycling, he used his influence through livestrong to establish himself as much more than just a "push bike racer". For a few years, he was professional cycling and no article was complete without a picture or reference to him regardless of the race, he was also cancer survivor, cancer spokesman, politician, celebrity etc etc.
So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
Spot on. I don't remember Eddy Merckx calling any women a w
e, lying under oath or destroying reputations through dishonest litigation. It's so sad that people keep faith and believe in Lance. He's become a religion, a cult. His manipulation has clearly reached deep inside the psyche of the gullible. Cults always attract the weaklings and the inadequates of society, and the Cult of Armstrong is no different.
pablo said:
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
The man is a first class a
hole but the comparisons to the likes of Cult leaders is rediculous.The "men" in his teams were adults they had a choice to make and they made it now they feel guilty but not guilty enough to give money back to sponsors and the like.
pablo said:
Again, the point is that Armstrong didnt keep it in the peloton, he went way outside the world of cycling, he used his influence through livestrong to establish himself as much more than just a "push bike racer". For a few years, he was professional cycling and no article was complete without a picture or reference to him regardless of the race, he was also cancer survivor, cancer spokesman, politician, celebrity etc etc.
So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
Ruined lives - um it was a 7 year stint call it 8 years while he won and cheated. Not sure how lives can be ruined in that timeframe, especially as they didn't shout out from the off instead towards the end only. So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
Ruined to me would be down to the following list but not an exhaustive list
Being raped as a child or adult
Terminal/degrading illness
Abducted child
Death of someone very close who died far far too young
Banished from a locality for something someone had done
Begging on the streets - though that could be short term rather than for life
Convicted of a crime while utterly innocent
Jail time and meeting Mr Big in the showers while dropping a bar of soap
Loss of a dependant
Some on here have very odd views in so much they think the world is ending for pretty petty things. If this made you depressed well your life is utopia/not really living in the real world OR you've lived an exceptionally sheltered life.
Welshbeef said:
Ruined lives - um it was a 7 year stint call it 8 years while he won and cheated. Not sure how lives can be ruined in that timeframe, especially as they didn't shout out from the off instead towards the end only.
Ruined to me would be down to the following list but not an exhaustive list
Being raped as a child or adult
Terminal/degrading illness
Abducted child
Death of someone very close who died far far too young
Banished from a locality for something someone had done
Begging on the streets - though that could be short term rather than for life
Convicted of a crime while utterly innocent
Jail time and meeting Mr Big in the showers while dropping a bar of soap
Loss of a dependant
Some on here have very odd views in so much they think the world is ending for pretty petty things. If this made you depressed well your life is utopia/not really living in the real world OR you've lived an exceptionally sheltered life.
I dont recall any of "his people" being chained to their hotel bedrooms they were free to leave and seek other employment if their lives had become so awful.Ruined to me would be down to the following list but not an exhaustive list
Being raped as a child or adult
Terminal/degrading illness
Abducted child
Death of someone very close who died far far too young
Banished from a locality for something someone had done
Begging on the streets - though that could be short term rather than for life
Convicted of a crime while utterly innocent
Jail time and meeting Mr Big in the showers while dropping a bar of soap
Loss of a dependant
Some on here have very odd views in so much they think the world is ending for pretty petty things. If this made you depressed well your life is utopia/not really living in the real world OR you've lived an exceptionally sheltered life.
I am not going to defend him as a person he sounds a bit of a nutter and control freak but its just a cop out to blame him for all the evil in cycling.
My experience and memories go back a longtime and the leaders of teams in the past and the "grandee's" of the peleton did not run a democracy it was thier way or the high way and that included drug taking.
Welshbeef said:
pablo said:
Again, the point is that Armstrong didnt keep it in the peloton, he went way outside the world of cycling, he used his influence through livestrong to establish himself as much more than just a "push bike racer". For a few years, he was professional cycling and no article was complete without a picture or reference to him regardless of the race, he was also cancer survivor, cancer spokesman, politician, celebrity etc etc.
So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
Ruined lives - um it was a 7 year stint call it 8 years while he won and cheated. Not sure how lives can be ruined in that timeframe, especially as they didn't shout out from the off instead towards the end only. So no, he wasnt just doing what other dopers in the past had done, he was covering his arse so thickly that it was like concrete. Lance established himself such that he could use his cancer to twist and manipulate anyone who suspected him of doping, to me that is so hugely disrespectful to all other cancer survivors I think his behaviour is just deplorable.
As for the bullying, he dint bully people, he ruined peoples lives.
Ruined to me would be down to the following list but not an exhaustive list
Being raped as a child or adult
Terminal/degrading illness
Abducted child
Death of someone very close who died far far too young
Banished from a locality for something someone had done
Begging on the streets - though that could be short term rather than for life
Convicted of a crime while utterly innocent
Jail time and meeting Mr Big in the showers while dropping a bar of soap
Loss of a dependant
Some on here have very odd views in so much they think the world is ending for pretty petty things. If this made you depressed well your life is utopia/not really living in the real world OR you've lived an exceptionally sheltered life.
Welshbeef said:
Ruined lives - um it was a 7 year stint call it 8 years while he won and cheated. Not sure how lives can be ruined in that timeframe, especially as they didn't shout out from the off instead towards the end only.
Ruined to me would be down to the following list but not an exhaustive list
Being raped as a child or adult
Terminal/degrading illness
Abducted child
Death of someone very close who died far far too young
Banished from a locality for something someone had done
Begging on the streets - though that could be short term rather than for life
Convicted of a crime while utterly innocent
Jail time and meeting Mr Big in the showers while dropping a bar of soap
Loss of a dependant
Some on here have very odd views in so much they think the world is ending for pretty petty things. If this made you depressed well your life is utopia/not really living in the real world OR you've lived an exceptionally sheltered life.
Wow! Some people on here have a mixed up view of ruined lives and serious crime.Ruined to me would be down to the following list but not an exhaustive list
Being raped as a child or adult
Terminal/degrading illness
Abducted child
Death of someone very close who died far far too young
Banished from a locality for something someone had done
Begging on the streets - though that could be short term rather than for life
Convicted of a crime while utterly innocent
Jail time and meeting Mr Big in the showers while dropping a bar of soap
Loss of a dependant
Some on here have very odd views in so much they think the world is ending for pretty petty things. If this made you depressed well your life is utopia/not really living in the real world OR you've lived an exceptionally sheltered life.
Two people have gone on TV and said that their lives were ruined by his false accusations. To criticise those being bullied suggests that it is you who have lived the sweet life. Different people react differently.
I've seen more than my fair share of pain and distress caused by bullying. That is the real world.
Either you have no idea and so have an excuse or else you are just waffling.
Is it pretty pretty not to want people to deliberately lie about you, to get the press printing stories about you?
I'm quite happy for him to sue Murdoch for a bit of poor under-researched reporting, but if he lied in his evidence, he should repay the full amount, with interest and have to pay exemplary damages. Oh, and full costs of course.
Raped as a child! I ask you.
How about the treatment of Greg Lemond?
Tour winner. Brand owner under Trek. Successful businessman.
His business completely destroyed because Armstrong was more important to Trek bike sales than Lemond. Yet he was absolutely right.
Now it's fair to say that Lemond was already comfortably off, however to destroy someone's business for telling the truth is way beyond anything Merckx, Hainault, etc. did when ruling the peloton.
Tour winner. Brand owner under Trek. Successful businessman.
His business completely destroyed because Armstrong was more important to Trek bike sales than Lemond. Yet he was absolutely right.
Now it's fair to say that Lemond was already comfortably off, however to destroy someone's business for telling the truth is way beyond anything Merckx, Hainault, etc. did when ruling the peloton.
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