Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
Silver993tt said:
Disastrous said:
Assuming he's guilty, which it sadly sounds like, he's played this an absolute blinder. This will, IMO, allow enough doubt to surround the issue that it will be impossible to be sure.
Politics next for him??
He's totally innocent until there is concrete evidence proving otherwise, which there clearly isn't. The USDA's actions confirm this as they can't provide anything that will prove any illegal activities to a court of law. I'm sure that LA will follow all of this with a string of law suits to many that have been accusing him without any factual evidence that will stand up in a court of law and I'm sure that will include many members of the public who have been slandering his name by using media channels such as this.Politics next for him??
That's it he's guilty.
Who on earth is LA going to sue? He's the guilty one.
el stovey said:
Silver993tt said:
Disastrous said:
Assuming he's guilty, which it sadly sounds like, he's played this an absolute blinder. This will, IMO, allow enough doubt to surround the issue that it will be impossible to be sure.
Politics next for him??
He's totally innocent until there is concrete evidence proving otherwise, which there clearly isn't. The USDA's actions confirm this as they can't provide anything that will prove any illegal activities to a court of law. I'm sure that LA will follow all of this with a string of law suits to many that have been accusing him without any factual evidence that will stand up in a court of law and I'm sure that will include many members of the public who have been slandering his name by using media channels such as this.Politics next for him??
That's it he's guilty.
Who on earth is LA going to sue? He's the guilty one.
telecat said:
el stovey said:
Silver993tt said:
Disastrous said:
Assuming he's guilty, which it sadly sounds like, he's played this an absolute blinder. This will, IMO, allow enough doubt to surround the issue that it will be impossible to be sure.
Politics next for him??
He's totally innocent until there is concrete evidence proving otherwise, which there clearly isn't. The USDA's actions confirm this as they can't provide anything that will prove any illegal activities to a court of law. I'm sure that LA will follow all of this with a string of law suits to many that have been accusing him without any factual evidence that will stand up in a court of law and I'm sure that will include many members of the public who have been slandering his name by using media channels such as this.Politics next for him??
That's it he's guilty.
Who on earth is LA going to sue? He's the guilty one.
I'm not sure what other process people thing he should be facing. It isn't a criminal case.
el stovey said:
Silver993tt said:
Disastrous said:
Assuming he's guilty, which it sadly sounds like, he's played this an absolute blinder. This will, IMO, allow enough doubt to surround the issue that it will be impossible to be sure.
Politics next for him??
He's totally innocent until there is concrete evidence proving otherwise, which there clearly isn't. The USDA's actions confirm this as they can't provide anything that will prove any illegal activities to a court of law. I'm sure that LA will follow all of this with a string of law suits to many that have been accusing him without any factual evidence that will stand up in a court of law and I'm sure that will include many members of the public who have been slandering his name by using media channels such as this.Politics next for him??
That's it he's guilty.
Who on earth is LA going to sue? He's the guilty one.
That in fact is what everybody is waiting for. Cards on the deck, money on the table, eyeballs front and centre, put up or shut up. Said right from the start the USDA have buggered this one up and they have, they have allowed Armstrong free reign to laugh at them, point fingers and generally ask allowed to everybody far and near "See what I have to put up with? They're incompetent!" Its worked a treat. Armstrong isnt after vindication from sports fans, authorities or cycling, he is after the wider PR war and he is a country mile ahead. Donations to Livestrong went up by 20 times in the week after the USDA "stripped" him of his TdF wins...which neither the UCI nor the French organisers have recognised yet.
You seem to think the issue is over whether he is guilty or not, it isnt and never has been. Its over whether the USDA has a watertight case to defend itself from the mud. Currently they dont, so Armstrong's mud and obfuscation are winning and winning easily. Its helped massively by the USDA's arrogance of presumption...yes, we will accuse first, then not release our evidence. Even to other authorities we are over-riding! Muppets.
el stovey said:
telecat said:
el stovey said:
Silver993tt said:
Disastrous said:
Assuming he's guilty, which it sadly sounds like, he's played this an absolute blinder. This will, IMO, allow enough doubt to surround the issue that it will be impossible to be sure.
Politics next for him??
He's totally innocent until there is concrete evidence proving otherwise, which there clearly isn't. The USDA's actions confirm this as they can't provide anything that will prove any illegal activities to a court of law. I'm sure that LA will follow all of this with a string of law suits to many that have been accusing him without any factual evidence that will stand up in a court of law and I'm sure that will include many members of the public who have been slandering his name by using media channels such as this.Politics next for him??
That's it he's guilty.
Who on earth is LA going to sue? He's the guilty one.
I'm not sure what other process people thing he should be facing. It isn't a criminal case.
Bedazzled said:
DJRC said:
Armstrong isnt after vindication from sports fans, authorities or cycling, he is after the wider PR war and he is a country mile ahead... Armstrong's mud and obfuscation are winning and winning easily...
Are you the Iraqi Minister for Misinformation?
He's already been found guilty of doping by the United States organisation responsible for finding dopers. USADA don't have to defend themselves or explain themselves to anyone, they are simply doing their job.
Anyone who thinks he is winning anything is quite frankly barking. He has already lost. He's lost his titles and been found to be a doper. It's over. Unfortunately for Armstrong, things are only going to get worse as all his ex team mates and people who have kept quiet retire and spill the beans publicly over the extent of his cheating.
Even then some people will still think he's innocent and has somehow won.
London424 said:
And if the file they hand to the UCI is seen as being worthless the UCI will reinstate him. Time will tell what they've actually got on him.
The UCI are a bunch of corrupt jokers. They accepted money from Armstrong when they were supposed to be policing him. Why was Armstrong donating money to the UCI?Armstrong is an irrelevance now. What's important is that the chickens are finally coming home to roost for the UCI. McQuaid and Verbruggen hold the real culpability for what the UCI has allowed to happen in the last 20 years.
Their desperation is starting to show, for instance in suing Kimmage.
Chapeau to Holy Dave for standing up and asking a couple of pointed questions to McQuaid today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaeXXDZUSJs
Their desperation is starting to show, for instance in suing Kimmage.
Chapeau to Holy Dave for standing up and asking a couple of pointed questions to McQuaid today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaeXXDZUSJs
el stovey said:
London424 said:
And if the file they hand to the UCI is seen as being worthless the UCI will reinstate him. Time will tell what they've actually got on him.
The UCI are a bunch of corrupt jokers. They accepted money from Armstrong when they were supposed to be policing him. Why was Armstrong donating money to the UCI?el stovey said:
London424 said:
And if the file they hand to the UCI is seen as being worthless the UCI will reinstate him. Time will tell what they've actually got on him.
The UCI are a bunch of corrupt jokers. They accepted money from Armstrong when they were supposed to be policing him. Why was Armstrong donating money to the UCI?aspender said:
Armstrong is an irrelevance now. What's important is that the chickens are finally coming home to roost for the UCI. McQuaid and Verbruggen hold the real culpability for what the UCI has allowed to happen in the last 20 years.
Their desperation is starting to show, for instance in suing Kimmage.
Chapeau to Holy Dave for standing up and asking a couple of pointed questions to McQuaid today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaeXXDZUSJs
I think you are right. The real battle is against the UCI. Upsetting though it is, Lawrence is a side issue. Given the number of team mates and fellow cyclists who have 'come clean', if a little late, the argument re drug taking is over. We all know.Their desperation is starting to show, for instance in suing Kimmage.
Chapeau to Holy Dave for standing up and asking a couple of pointed questions to McQuaid today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaeXXDZUSJs
The UCI however, is not a pushover. Further, the ADA has little authority over them. This war will, I think, run and run with little battle, skirmishes, going on all the time.
I'm not sure the UCI is tht desperate at the moment as it has very powerful supporters, not the least being the French who would not want too many 'problems' with the TdF.
There have been a few allegations over recent years regarding the UCI. I thin, however, that these were exagerated and the UCI is as honest and unbiased as the FIA was under that bloke who liked beating prostitutes. They are certainly about as dependable.
The odd thing is that scandal and UCI have been bedfellows over the years and yet when the ADA take their own man to task and follow the rules they are the ones being criticised for dishonesty and bias.
I'm pretty certain that the usual way of doing things is that the Doping authority are supposed to submit the evidence to the Sporting Authority. Moreover a lot of the Sporting authorities basically tell the Doping agency to supply the information and not to release it. It certainly seems to be the case between the Premier League and the UKADA. What the USADA think they are doing announcing that Armstrong is guilty without first submitting the report to the UCI is why people such as myself look at their actions and think somebody in there is just out to get Armstrong.
el stovey said:
Bedazzled said:
DJRC said:
Armstrong isnt after vindication from sports fans, authorities or cycling, he is after the wider PR war and he is a country mile ahead... Armstrong's mud and obfuscation are winning and winning easily...
Are you the Iraqi Minister for Misinformation?He's already been found guilty of doping by the United States organisation responsible for finding dopers. USADA don't have to defend themselves or explain themselves to anyone, they are simply doing their job.
Anyone who thinks he is winning anything is quite frankly barking. He has already lost. He's lost his titles and been found to be a doper. It's over. Unfortunately for Armstrong, things are only going to get worse as all his ex team mates and people who have kept quiet retire and spill the beans publicly over the extent of his cheating.
Even then some people will still think he's innocent and has somehow won.
The argument on this thread hasnt been to do with whether Armstrong is guilty or not...I think over SilverTT is still defending him...its over how the USDA have buggered the job up. The only ppl who can actually strip Armstrong of any TdF results are the French organisers, not the USDA or even the UCI contrary to what anybody thinks. The USDA has presumed to run roughshod over them both...which given the French arent predisposed to back Armstrong anyway and now they are more behind Lance than the USDA is idiotic...and a month after the fact still has not produced evidence.
For the USDA to win, it had to put watertight evidence on the table and open it to everybody. Until it does that and its watertight then Armstrong will continue to sling mud and work his PR machine and he has a much better one than the USDA does. Its cynicism 101.
The USDA is fighting the wrong battle and it always has been.
Edited by DJRC on Sunday 23 September 23:00
DJRC said:
el stovey said:
Bedazzled said:
DJRC said:
Armstrong isnt after vindication from sports fans, authorities or cycling, he is after the wider PR war and he is a country mile ahead... Armstrong's mud and obfuscation are winning and winning easily...
Are you the Iraqi Minister for Misinformation?He's already been found guilty of doping by the United States organisation responsible for finding dopers. USADA don't have to defend themselves or explain themselves to anyone, they are simply doing their job.
Anyone who thinks he is winning anything is quite frankly barking. He has already lost. He's lost his titles and been found to be a doper. It's over. Unfortunately for Armstrong, things are only going to get worse as all his ex team mates and people who have kept quiet retire and spill the beans publicly over the extent of his cheating.
Even then some people will still think he's innocent and has somehow won.
The argument on this thread hasnt been to do with whether Armstrong is guilty or not...I think over SilverTT is still defending him...its over how the USDA have buggered the job up. The only ppl who can actually strip Armstrong of any TdF results are the French organisers, not the USDA or even the UCI contrary to what anybody thinks. The USDA has presumed to run roughshod over them both...which given the French arent predisposed to back Armstrong anyway and now they are more behind Lance than the USDA is idiotic...and a month after the fact still has not produced evidence.
For the USDA to win, it had to put watertight evidence on the table and open it to everybody. Until it does that and its watertight then Armstrong will continue to sling mud and work his PR machine and he has a much better one than the USDA does. Its cynicism 101.
The USDA is fighting the wrong battle and it always has been.
Edited by DJRC on Sunday 23 September 23:00
telecat said:
Really USADA shouldn't be fighting the battle. They should be supplying the ammo and leaving it to the TDF and UCI to fight it. As it is they keep saying they have .44 Magnums and haven't even supplied a Blank.
Haven't seen much intent from the UCI to do that part of the job - with Lance in particular, anyway.Hamilton pushing his book (which is going to be a birthday present for me). He suggests that there are more revelations to come regardless of what the ADA does.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/sep/24/tyler-...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/sep/24/tyler-...
Derek Smith said:
Hamilton pushing his book (which is going to be a birthday present for me). He suggests that there are more revelations to come regardless of what the ADA does.
Well of course he's going to say that. He's got a book to sell. Still waiting for USDA to provide any "evidence" they have to the UCI but the chances of that are diminshing as each day passes and meanwhile without any, LA is still totally innocent.
Silver993tt said:
Derek Smith said:
Hamilton pushing his book (which is going to be a birthday present for me). He suggests that there are more revelations to come regardless of what the ADA does.
Well of course he's going to say that. He's got a book to sell. Still waiting for USDA to provide any "evidence" they have to the UCI but the chances of that are diminshing as each day passes and meanwhile without any, LA is still totally innocent.
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