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Chris Stott

1,136 posts

84 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
epom said:
It seems to me that a lot of people on here believe Sky not to be doping simply because they are a British team with British riders, I'm all for patriotism and that but... I accept that nothing has turned up yet.
I wouldn't assume SKY weren't doping just because they are primarily a British run team.

I would assume they aren't doping as I'd assume their sponsor asked for some cats iron guarentees before handing over millions of pounds.

I also struggle to believe Brailsford would allow himself and his reputation to get dragged in to the dirt.

Of course I could be completely misguided and SKY and the British Olympic squard have been pinning up every night with something super special and as yet undetectable...

Nigel H

640 posts

97 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Chris Stott said:
epom said:
It seems to me that a lot of people on here believe Sky not to be doping simply because they are a British team with British riders, I'm all for patriotism and that but... I accept that nothing has turned up yet.
I wouldn't assume SKY weren't doping just because they are primarily a British run team.

I would assume they aren't doping as I'd assume their sponsor asked for some cats iron guarentees before handing over millions of pounds.

I also struggle to believe Brailsford would allow himself and his reputation to get dragged in to the dirt.

Of course I could be completely misguided and SKY and the British Olympic squard have been pinning up every night with something super special and as yet undetectable...
And that's the problem, it could be undetectable. If you read the Hamilton and Millar books you get an idea of how relatively easy it was to thing to do and not get caught; they both did of for years, so what's to say they're not doing something new now?

I've no view one way or the other on this, I want to believe Sky are clean, it's just that the weight of evidence from the last 15 years makes me have slight doubts.

Robsti

5,922 posts

93 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
pablo said:
on the other hand, a lot of people know Sky are not doping because they have been following professional cycling for more than 2 years.....

You have to look at the career of Wiggo and Cav amongst others in Sky to appreciate this whole thing. they were brought up in the closet world of track cycling where everything is scrutinised. the track world has been ahead of the road in terms of testing for years. In a sport where 1/10th of a second is a big gap, testing and scrutiny of the riders physcial capacity was far more common than road racing where the winning margins for races is often far greater (sprints exlcuded but they are largely irrelevant). Any Sky rider who is doping, is doing so on his own and likely to be a fringe rider but no performances spring to mind to sugegst something like this, and as the others have said, DB is so closely linked to loads of other cycling acheivements that the pack of cards would tumble down quick enough....

Wiggo and Cav will have been tested frequently from the late nineties through several Olympics to the current day and there is no evidence, nor any allegations to say that they have doped in the past, no witnesses etc
The Brailsford training methods/regime has been stuided by many coaches and scientists, and almost replicated like for like by Cycling Australia in prep for 2012, and people have found the small gains approach to be suitable for many other sports but it just works for cyclists.

it just annoys me when the harder these guys work and the more they train, they more they win and with that the frequency of these stories appear. take the Womens Team Pursuit as an example, they broke six world records at the Olympics on the way to gold medal by beating each time by about 1/10th of a second.
It was a perfect example of the Brailsford model. Trace that into the Sky team and you see the same results, the races are longer so the performance increases are bigger but thats the only reason

it just seems to me that the cyclists who train the hardest, and achieve what many think of as impossible sporting achievements, are the ones who get the doping allegations thrown at them.

Go run 5000m as fast as you can, then take 7 minutes off that time and you are probably close to Mo Farah's pace, you think thats impossible because you cant get anywahere near Mo's time but you dont train or eat like Mo (actually I dont think he does eat but thats irrelevant!) but why isnt Mo or Alberto Salazar hit with these allegations? Its not like Athletics is clean....
As for the "dodgy doctor", you could argue why Manchester City persevere with the likes of Mario Balotelli, he sulks, he gets sent off, he also happens to be a brilliant footballer. Sometimes, if you want the best people in your team, you have to appreciate that they come with baggage. I doubt there is any doctor in the pro tour peloton without some link to a doping scandal, degrees of seperation and all that.

Finally, doping just isnt in UK cycling culture and it never has (Simpson aside), its the "plucky Brit" syndrome, we train clean, we turn up clean, we win or lose clean, we go home, we train some more. I can remeber when there was only one
lone Brit in the World Champs or le tour at all, step up Max Sciandri, let alone a bloody team of them!

Read the stories from the likes of Barry Hoban and its clear that the British would rather turn up and lose than dope.

Edited by pablo on Tuesday 9th October 13:39
Not just Simpson!

Sean Yates ,David McCann and David Millar have all been caught.

I hope Sky are clean as I hope all teams are clean BUT it's so hard to believe anymore.

pablo

12,306 posts

160 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Nigel H said:
Chris Stott said:
epom said:
It seems to me that a lot of people on here believe Sky not to be doping simply because they are a British team with British riders, I'm all for patriotism and that but... I accept that nothing has turned up yet.
I wouldn't assume SKY weren't doping just because they are primarily a British run team.

I would assume they aren't doping as I'd assume their sponsor asked for some cats iron guarentees before handing over millions of pounds.

I also struggle to believe Brailsford would allow himself and his reputation to get dragged in to the dirt.

Of course I could be completely misguided and SKY and the British Olympic squard have been pinning up every night with something super special and as yet undetectable...
And that's the problem, it could be undetectable. If you read the Hamilton and Millar books you get an idea of how relatively easy it was to thing to do and not get caught; they both did of for years, so what's to say they're not doing something new now?

I've no view one way or the other on this, I want to believe Sky are clean, it's just that the weight of evidence from the last 15 years makes me have slight doubts.
the thing i dont get is why cast all the doubt upon Sky, just because they won and not FDJ for example, I mean where the hell did Thibaut Pinot come from? the youngest guy to finish in the top 10 of le tour since god knows when and he absolutely destroyed some of the best riders in the world.....

... and four examples does not a culture make. This is by no means conclusive but does prove my point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_...

Robsti

5,922 posts

93 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
pablo said:
the thing i dont get is why cast all the doubt upon Sky, just because they won and not FDJ for example, I mean where the hell did Thibaut Pinot come from? the youngest guy to finish in the top 10 of le tour since god knows when and he absolutely destroyed some of the best riders in the world.....

... and four examples does not a culture make. This is by no means conclusive but does prove my point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_...
Pinot and Froome.
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Dare2Fail

3,658 posts

95 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
pablo said:
the thing i dont get is why cast all the doubt upon Sky, just because they won and not FDJ for example, I mean where the hell did Thibaut Pinot come from? the youngest guy to finish in the top 10 of le tour since god knows when and he absolutely destroyed some of the best riders in the world.....

... and four examples does not a culture make. This is by no means conclusive but does prove my point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_...
pablo said:
the thing i dont get is why cast all the doubt upon Sky, just because they won and not FDJ for example, I mean where the hell did Thibaut Pinot come from? the youngest guy to finish in the top 10 of le tour since god knows when and he absolutely destroyed some of the best riders in the world.....

... and four examples does not a culture make. This is by no means conclusive but does prove my point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_...
I will jump in here as I mentioned Sky for the first time in a few pages on this thread so maybe I have dug up an old discussion. The reasons I made reference to concerns about Team Sky were:-

1. A general cynicism about the sport of pro cycling, which probably wasn't helped by the fact that I had literally just finished reading Hamilton's book at the time of posting. Hamilton does make the point in the closing chapter that he seems to think that the sport is clean (or cleaner) simply from looking at stage times. He makes a comment that the winning time of Alp D'Huez (sp?) in 2012 would have crossed the line in a mighty position of 41st in the Hamilton/Armstrong era. This in itself helps support the argument that the sport is cleaning up.

2. I think the reasons Sky are a bit under the microscope is because, in my very casual eye, they were the team that absolutely dominated this years Tour. Getting back to the Hamilton book (and apologies if my posts are coming across as 'I have read a book and therefore know it all', it certainly isn't my intention) he makes the point that in his era you could spot the team that had made a big breakthrough in doping by the fact that team dominated stages/events. It wasn't one rider from the team that did well, it was the entire team. Given the strong performance by the entire Sky team in the overall GC it fits into Hamilton's criteria, but that could just be sheer coincidence.

fid

2,403 posts

127 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
Dare2Fail said:
I will jump in here as I mentioned Sky for the first time in a few pages on this thread so maybe I have dug up an old discussion. The reasons I made reference to concerns about Team Sky were:-

1. A general cynicism about the sport of pro cycling, which probably wasn't helped by the fact that I had literally just finished reading Hamilton's book at the time of posting. Hamilton does make the point in the closing chapter that he seems to think that the sport is clean (or cleaner) simply from looking at stage times. He makes a comment that the winning time of Alp D'Huez (sp?) in 2012 would have crossed the line in a mighty position of 41st in the Hamilton/Armstrong era. This in itself helps support the argument that the sport is cleaning up.

2. I think the reasons Sky are a bit under the microscope is because, in my very casual eye, they were the team that absolutely dominated this years Tour. Getting back to the Hamilton book (and apologies if my posts are coming across as 'I have read a book and therefore know it all', it certainly isn't my intention) he makes the point that in his era you could spot the team that had made a big breakthrough in doping by the fact that team dominated stages/events. It wasn't one rider from the team that did well, it was the entire team. Given the strong performance by the entire Sky team in the overall GC it fits into Hamilton's criteria, but that could just be sheer coincidence.
Sky didn't stand out to me - quite simply, their main competitors weren't racing in this year's tour.

Sagan, however, did stand out.

DJRC

22,275 posts

123 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
Froome and Sagan stood out for me.

Wiggo and Cav for example performed at their top levels which they have been capable of for yours. Same as Bernie E up front for Sky and EBH is turning early promise into sustained good work. Froome and Sagan were the nowhere men.

el stovey

15,170 posts

150 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
Why are people even hinting SKY are involved in doping, there's no evidence to back up that suggestion whatsoever.

Highway Star

3,079 posts

118 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
DJRC said:
Froome and Sagan were the nowhere men.
Podium at 2011 Vuelta and ITT win and mountain top finish stage win for Froome.

12 2012 wins before the Tour, 4th at Milan-San Remo, 5th at Tour of Flanders, 11 wins in 2011, multiple points jerseys at decent races like Tour of California for Sagan.

Hardly what I'd call nowhere men.

You want a 'nowhere man', try Juan Jose Cobo at 2011 Vuelta.


Edited by Highway Star on Wednesday 10th October 09:34


Edited by Highway Star on Wednesday 10th October 09:36

Robsti

5,922 posts

93 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
Sky get rid of one "dodgy doctor".

London424

Original Poster:

5,708 posts

62 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/848...

According to this the details come out later today.

DJRC

22,275 posts

123 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
Highway Star said:
DJRC said:
Froome and Sagan were the nowhere men.
Podium at 2011 Vuelta and ITT win and mountain top finish stage win for Froome.

12 2012 wins before the Tour, 4th at Milan-San Remo, 5th at Tour of Flanders, 11 wins in 2011, multiple points jerseys at decent races like Tour of California for Sagan.

Hardly what I'd call nowhere men.

You want a 'nowhere man', try Juan Jose Cobo at 2011 Vuelta.


Edited by Highway Star on Wednesday 10th October 09:34


Edited by Highway Star on Wednesday 10th October 09:36
Er for Juan Jose Cobo on the 2011 Vuelta see Froome!!

Before his run started last yr Froome was largely a nobody in world cycling terms. Suddenly he could have won the 2012 TdF. That makes me sit up and take notice.

el stovey

15,170 posts

150 months

aspender

1,000 posts

152 months

Highway Star

3,079 posts

118 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
DJRC said:
Er for Juan Jose Cobo on the 2011 Vuelta see Froome!!

Before his run started last yr Froome was largely a nobody in world cycling terms. Suddenly he could have won the 2012 TdF. That makes me sit up and take notice.
You said 'nowhere men' in 2012 TDF.

Froome has backed up his form in 2011 with a number of 2012 performances. He's only been pro since 2007 also, so relatively young still.

I would say he's just progressing - bit like your running wink Undoubtedly though, he's progressed quicker at Sky.

Cobo is nowhere now.

London424

Original Poster:

5,708 posts

62 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
aspender said:
I'm on p25 and it's brutal reading. I'm amazed it's taken this long for something that was so extensive to be kept pretty quiet.

el stovey

15,170 posts

150 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
Oh dear looks like Michael Barry has confessed now too, just before retirement. Like Hincapie.

Edited by el stovey on Wednesday 10th October 19:49

el stovey

15,170 posts

150 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
@nedboulting: This time two years ago lawyers picked my sentences to bits when I wrote about Armstrong. Can I have my missing words back now please?

hehe

Disastrous

5,023 posts

104 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
This has to be game over on the 'is he innocent?' debate, surely?
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