Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
pablo said:
Derek Smith said:
I'm not sure that LA is 'winning'. If the ADA had not done anything then he would b e in a much stronger place that he is now. Whilst Nike is giving out verbals about support, I would suggest that they might well jump ship.
LA is an American hero and as such is about as untouchable as you can get, a Savile for the States. The ADA has 17 riders suggesting that LA took drugs. Not only that that the USP team was about as corrupt as could be. This is early days. LA might not be mortally wounded but he is injured. He's got lots of money, oddles of the stuff, and that, in the USA, makes for lots of blin-eye-turning, but he will never reach the same level as he would had the ADA not produced the cse against him.
He's gone for the only route he could: nothing's been proved. The ADA has, to the open-minded (and I might add to some who regarded him as something of an inspiration) proved him to e a cheat. So he's lost a lot. There are many sponsors out there who will not, at least in the medium term, consider him.
Had LA admitted the use of drugs, but challenged the level, or at least his knowledge of how bad it was, then he would have probably come away with much less damage, and it would have healed quicker. He could even have gained some sympathy.
If hed' said something along the lines of:
I won't challenge the conclusion of the ADA's report, although I would say that much of it is not accurate. However, I must admit to using drugs on occasion. The problem from the Team UPS point of view, many people had invested heavily in the team and, as has been shown, drug taking was endemic int he sport. The only way of competing was to follow their example. The UPS team's level of drug taking was lower than most, probably all, of the leading teams. We did only as much as we needed to do to return the faith and investment of those who supported the team. Whilst I regret the drug taking, I do not regret trying to level the playing field. People put their faith in the team and there is no way I could have let them down. To suggest, however, that Team UPS' performance was down solely to drugs is nonsense. We did only as much as we had to.
That's winning.
Thank god you're not his publicist! LA is an American hero and as such is about as untouchable as you can get, a Savile for the States. The ADA has 17 riders suggesting that LA took drugs. Not only that that the USP team was about as corrupt as could be. This is early days. LA might not be mortally wounded but he is injured. He's got lots of money, oddles of the stuff, and that, in the USA, makes for lots of blin-eye-turning, but he will never reach the same level as he would had the ADA not produced the cse against him.
He's gone for the only route he could: nothing's been proved. The ADA has, to the open-minded (and I might add to some who regarded him as something of an inspiration) proved him to e a cheat. So he's lost a lot. There are many sponsors out there who will not, at least in the medium term, consider him.
Had LA admitted the use of drugs, but challenged the level, or at least his knowledge of how bad it was, then he would have probably come away with much less damage, and it would have healed quicker. He could even have gained some sympathy.
If hed' said something along the lines of:
I won't challenge the conclusion of the ADA's report, although I would say that much of it is not accurate. However, I must admit to using drugs on occasion. The problem from the Team UPS point of view, many people had invested heavily in the team and, as has been shown, drug taking was endemic int he sport. The only way of competing was to follow their example. The UPS team's level of drug taking was lower than most, probably all, of the leading teams. We did only as much as we needed to do to return the faith and investment of those who supported the team. Whilst I regret the drug taking, I do not regret trying to level the playing field. People put their faith in the team and there is no way I could have let them down. To suggest, however, that Team UPS' performance was down solely to drugs is nonsense. We did only as much as we had to.
That's winning.
If Lance said that I would laugh in his face!What he needs to say is "i doped, i'm sorry, i will do all i can to help make the sport drug free" and that is all. Any excuses that other teams did it or UPS did it as little and as infrequent as possible to level the field would be a complete farce.
Armstrong is very much losing this fight now. His silence is laughable and his reputation is in tatters. Lance needs to confess now. As i said, when I thought it was just Landis on a "knives out" publicity charge, I was the same as many other, show me a credible witness, well guys like DZ, VdV and Hincapie I can believe, so now I want a confession and we move on.
for those to whom Lance was a hero, he should confess, no one sold their bikes in disgust when the others admitted doping... he will be just another cyclist who doped.
I hope the livestrong foundation can survive and prosper however, its far bigger the Lance alone. it does offer a lot of support to millions of people and has massively raised the profile of testicular cancer and cancer as a whole. Above all this, long before the doping incidents were said to have taken place, the guy was given a slim chance of survival and fought back to survive, for that he deserves credit.
Or put another way, it wasnt doping which helped Lance survive cancer.
LA is finished after this. His only route ack now is public confession and apology, followed by a vehement anti-stance going forwards-that seems to play to the Americans...
DrMekon said:
I see people are going after LiveStrong now - apparently none of their money goes on research, senior people on big money, the self-monitoring site being a separate commercial entity.
Livestrong has never been about research, it's been about raising awareness and giving support. Neither Lance nor anyone else involved has made any effort to misrepresent that, AFAIK, although other people in the public eye (sports commentators particularly, who aren't the sharpest tools in the box) have gotten the wrong end of the stick and claimed that the money goes on research.Awareness raising is supposedly very important for early diagnosis, although the effectiveness on prognoses is arguable. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with their goals.
It's quite difficult to completely untangle Livestrong the charity from Livestrong the commercial entity, but that doesn't mean it's some enormous fraud.
I've wondered for some years why Armstrong didn't switch his charitable efforts to research funding and come out and say "It was always about the drugs. I took EPO in my cancer treatment, I took it on the bike. Please give as much as you can so that we can develop better drugs".
I guess he's afraid that his ill-gotten gains will be taken away from him if he comes out and admits it. I vaguely recall that he's worth over $100m.
pablo said:
for those to whom Lance was a hero, he should confess, no one sold their bikes in disgust when the others admitted doping... he will be just another cyclist who doped.
Too right. America loves a repenting sinner. Look at Bill Clinton, he lied on telly about his affair and then argued that he didn't technically have sexual relations with "that girl, Miss lewinski" He din't get impeached and the public loved him even more for it. Nobody cares that the best cyclist Eddy Merckx was a doper. Look at Contador, he's a hero in Spain, he didn't even 'fess up.
If LA admits he was juiced up and blames the doping culture, saying he was a good old American kid that got corrupted by the filthy foreigners then he'll still be a hero cancer survivor. He could make millions out of a book deal. Maybe a movie? Don't worry about LA he's one of those buggers that survives anything.
Derek Smith said:
It is probablyh the drug taking that nearly killed him via cancer.
How did you find the time to fit all that medical training into your extraordinarily busy working life?Interesting posts above on what LA should do now.
I wonder just who and what he could bring down if he chose to lash out with a no-holds-barred confessional in response to all this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19917856
So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
London424 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19917856
So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
T'is a bit fishy.So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
I guess none of them would be willing to do the same in March next year.
The best one is George Hincapie. A long time in the peloton, retires, then dishes the dirt.
Fishier than a trawlermans gloves but what do you expect, the bans are from the USADA not the UCI or CAS. With Contador, he was cleared by the Spanish Cycling Federation (funny that!) but the UCI and CAS got that over turned.
The USADA would effectively be slicing a big chunk of US cycling competitors from the pro tour if they were banned for longer/life and this was always their problem, how do they nail Lance and not take down US cycling as a whole at the same time....
Furthermore, the charges relate to a confession rather than a positive test so some leniency has to be afforded, like pleading guilty to a crime reduces the sentance.
The USADA would effectively be slicing a big chunk of US cycling competitors from the pro tour if they were banned for longer/life and this was always their problem, how do they nail Lance and not take down US cycling as a whole at the same time....
Furthermore, the charges relate to a confession rather than a positive test so some leniency has to be afforded, like pleading guilty to a crime reduces the sentance.
London424 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19917856
So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
The price that USADA has been willing to pay to get Armstrong.So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
London424 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19917856
So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
It's no different to low level drug dealers being given a deal in order to convict a high level supplier. In a perfect world it wouldn't happen and everyone would get their 'fair' punishment, but sadly this isn't a perfect world. So we have 5 former teammates testifying against Lance and they are either retiring or have got 6 month bans.
So basically they miss no significant races and will be back at the end of Feb having been able to complete their winter training routines.
Really sending a strong message about cheating there! Almost as bad as the Contador "ban".
USADA needed their statements and the price that was put on them was a slap on the wrists.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/lance-...
Looks like the whole house of cards could come crashing down.
Looks like the whole house of cards could come crashing down.
When DJRC says it would be a blood bath if it went to court is you'll have lots of these witnesses being introduced. (DJRC, please correct me if I've misunderstood your point)
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-broeck-and...
Former teammates that saw nothing, were encouraged by the team, respected his work ethic etc etc.
So then you have the word of ex-temamates who have doped and lied for the last 15 years against others who didn't.
To be clear, I think he's as guilty as it comes, just that it would be awfully messy. Hornetrider posted that the criminal stuff might get reopened so we might just see it anyway!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-broeck-and...
Former teammates that saw nothing, were encouraged by the team, respected his work ethic etc etc.
So then you have the word of ex-temamates who have doped and lied for the last 15 years against others who didn't.
To be clear, I think he's as guilty as it comes, just that it would be awfully messy. Hornetrider posted that the criminal stuff might get reopened so we might just see it anyway!
his silence on this will be read as acquiescence by many.
Despite his lawyers' statement on the matter I think a personal statement is due.
One of his former discovery teammates was on %rlive last night saying LA never asked, or encouraged him to take drugs.
and the bans and suspensions handed out to the informers is just part of the deal breaking - low enough not to hurt but there all the same, bit farcical really.
Despite his lawyers' statement on the matter I think a personal statement is due.
One of his former discovery teammates was on %rlive last night saying LA never asked, or encouraged him to take drugs.
and the bans and suspensions handed out to the informers is just part of the deal breaking - low enough not to hurt but there all the same, bit farcical really.
IroningMan said:
Derek Smith said:
It is probablyh the drug taking that nearly killed him via cancer.
How did you find the time to fit all that medical training into your extraordinarily busy working life?Derek Smith said:
IroningMan said:
Derek Smith said:
It is probablyh the drug taking that nearly killed him via cancer.
How did you find the time to fit all that medical training into your extraordinarily busy working life?Derek Smith said:
IroningMan said:
Derek Smith said:
It is probablyh the drug taking that nearly killed him via cancer.
How did you find the time to fit all that medical training into your extraordinarily busy working life?There may be a relationship between some steroids popular as PEDs and cancers of the kidney and liver, but not with testicular cancer.
London424 said:
Come on Derek, I hardly think that quip is even close to being accurate. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of pro riders that have taken the same as him and I can't recall seeing even the tiniest percentage being diagnosed with cancer in general, let alone testicular cancer specifically.
I suffer from a congenital problem which can be completely controlled by drugs. This gives a problem though. My feature means that I am predisposed towards a certain cancer. The stats appear quite worrying until you add in the lack of likelihood of this cancer in the general population. However, the drugs mask the symptoms so those who, like me, have the problem are more likely to suffer major difficulties as it is not caught early. So the incidence of the type of cancer is not that much higher than the general public but there is cosiderably lower survival rate.There is a suggestion that by taking such drugs that cyclists abuse can raise the likelihood of certain types of cancer. What is not in dispute is that they too can mask the symptoms. Therefore, the drugs could have killed him. Whether there is any increase in the incidence of testicular cancer is irrelevant.
As I say, it is there if you look for it. I found it after checking up on my problem, something which, you may appreciate, I am very interested in.
London424 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-broeck-and...
Former teammates that saw nothing, were encouraged by the team, respected his work ethic etc etc.
Former teammates who just happen to be joining what is essentially Armstrong's old team next year, a team still run by a certain J Bruyneel (well, for now anyway!). Former teammates that saw nothing, were encouraged by the team, respected his work ethic etc etc.
They're just toeing the party line, and this is a big part of the problem as riders - and soon to be retired riders who may want to move into team management - can be reluctant to burn their bridges. There are so many of the old guard still in the sport the omerta will continue for a time yet.
Edited by Rouleur on Friday 12th October 18:54
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