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el stovey

14,524 posts

143 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Foggy748 said:
fk em all Lance. You were the best for 7 years - drugs or no drugs, you were the best.
Best at doping and bulying and lying.

DJRC

21,342 posts

116 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
London424 said:
When DJRC says it would be a blood bath if it went to court is you'll have lots of these witnesses being introduced. (DJRC, please correct me if I've misunderstood your point)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-broeck-and...

Former teammates that saw nothing, were encouraged by the team, respected his work ethic etc etc.

So then you have the word of ex-temamates who have doped and lied for the last 15 years against others who didn't.

To be clear, I think he's as guilty as it comes, just that it would be awfully messy. Hornetrider posted that the criminal stuff might get reopened so we might just see it anyway!
Pretty much. It will be incredible messy and nobody will come out of it with their reputations intant and that includes the USDA...which was always my point.

For the drama of it Id love to see it go criminal. It would be complete car crash lawyer action! If anyone uncovers anything dodgy with Livestrong then it will absolutely turn criminal and then it will become a complete brawl.

mcelliott

2,240 posts

61 months

[news] 
Friday 12th October 2012 quote quote all
Foggy748 said:
fk em all Lance. You were the best for 7 years - drugs or no drugs, you were the best.
Can't knock your fervent support of Lance - one thing's for sure, and you're absolutely right, his will to win and pure singlemindedness was truly astonishing - and the physical demands of winning 7 tours, after coming back from cancer, was a remarkable achievement. Unfortunately it wasn't quite what we all wanted to believe. Will cycling learn from this? I have my doubts.

cotney

537 posts

51 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
mcelliott said:
Foggy748 said:
fk em all Lance. You were the best for 7 years - drugs or no drugs, you were the best.
Can't knock your fervent support of Lance - one thing's for sure, and you're absolutely right, his will to win and pure singlemindedness was truly astonishing - and the physical demands of winning 7 tours, after coming back from cancer, was a remarkable achievement. Unfortunately it wasn't quite what we all wanted to believe. Will cycling learn from this? I have my doubts.
Is anyone else of the opinion that even though he was doping his way through, so was everyone else at the time, so in effect it was a level playing field and he was the best?

maturin23

346 posts

102 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
There seem to be a few people blindly saying this.

He created and nurtured an environment where you either joined in the doping or you were driven out of the sport.

What if there was someone who was capable of beating him if no drugs were taken? If this person refused to take drugs he'd never be able to beat a 'doped' Lance Armstrong.

It was NOT a level playing field and it's idiocy to suggest it was.
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Andy Zarse

8,988 posts

127 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
zac510 said:
I can't condone Armstrong's taking of performance enhancing drugs but that was a great post by Foggy. There was no ignorance on his part, only recognition that there's so much more to any successful individual than one single characteristic.
I couldn't disagree with you more. I found his opinions quite loathsome.

JuniorD

3,381 posts

103 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Anyone who thinks Lance Armstrong is a legend and a force for good should read this, the statement of Simeoni who was humiliated and ruined by Armstrong during a race in 2004 . The further link in the story details the incident. Armstrong is an utterly despicable person.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simeoni-armstrong-...


Derek Smith

18,893 posts

128 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
JuniorD said:
Anyone who thinks Lance Armstrong is a legend and a force for good should read this, the statement of Simeoni who was humiliated and ruined by Armstrong during a race in 2004 . The further link in the story details the incident. Armstrong is an utterly despicable person.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simeoni-armstrong-...
I was ill at the time and missed it. I've heard it refered to a number of times. There wasn't an awful lot online about it (until fairly recently) and it has been difficult to 'catch up'. However, if it was as blatent as I am now reading, it would appear to be an indictment of the specialist cycling media (including TV) that it was ignored.

Is that a fair comment?

aspender

982 posts

145 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
cotney said:
Is anyone else of the opinion that even though he was doping his way through, so was everyone else at the time, so in effect it was a level playing field and he was the best?
This is an easy conclusion to reach, but not actually true. Much like people have different levels of reaction to use of recreational drugs, so athletes are affected to a different level by use of PEDS, especially EPO. It is simply not the case that it gives a uniform x% increase in performance.

EPO increases the red blood cell count, allowing the body to transport more oxygen to the muscles. To race you had to have a Hematocrit level (a measure of the number of red blood cells) of 50 or less. This was monitored by the UCI using blood tests.

If your natural Hematocrit level was, say, 42 then you could use EPO to get it up to 50 and see a 19% increase in your oxygen carrying capacity. If your natural level is 47 you can't achieve that same level of increased performance.

So if everybody can dope to get to 50 then in one respect that could be considered a 'level' playing field, but in reality those with a better physiological starting point have been 'unfairly' disadvantaged.


Rocksteadyeddie

7,181 posts

107 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
cotney said:
Is anyone else of the opinion that even though he was doping his way through, so was everyone else at the time, so in effect it was a level playing field and he was the best?
A quick look at Christophe Bassons, Felipe Simeoni, Paul Kimmage etc etc should disabuse anyone of this notion. Lots of guys rode clean. They were denied the opportunity to win, or even to compete, and to earn a living by Armstrong and the culture that he was a kingpin in promoting. Brian Smith wrote a good article in yesterday's Mail. To suggest "everyone" was at it does a huge disservice to those who refused to do so and paid the price for living to their values.

Halb

21,720 posts

63 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Foggy748 said:
I don't doubt at all that he and the rest of the peleton were taking drugs. His will to win, to push his limits was outstanding. He did a hell of a lot for cycling.
He did do a lot for cycling! He cycled EPO, Andriol, Cortisone, Human growth hormone and Actovegin! The man was a legend!

mcelliott said:
Can't knock your fervent support of Lance - one thing's for sure, and you're absolutely right, his will to win and pure singlemindedness was truly astonishing -
His will to fill himself with every chemical known to man was pretty dedicated.biggrin

Lost_BMW

12,955 posts

56 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
JuniorD said:
Anyone who thinks Lance Armstrong is a legend and a force for good should read this, the statement of Simeoni who was humiliated and ruined by Armstrong during a race in 2004 . The further link in the story details the incident. Armstrong is an utterly despicable person.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/simeoni-armstrong-...
Remember this too?

Italian national champion Filippo Simeoni has returned his red, green and white jersey to the national federation in protest over his squad's Giro d'Italia snub. Ceramica Flaminia was left out of the Giro d'Italia lineup after event organiser RCS Sport announced last week the Fuji-Servetto squad - which was asked to leave last year's Tour de France due to doping violations - would be awarded the final spot.

"It is unacceptable that the Italian champion cannot compete in the biggest event in his country," Simeoni told reporters on Monday.

Ceramica Flaminia team manager Roberto Marrone appealed to International Cycling Union (UCI) president Pat McQuaid over his team's exclusion from the Giro at the weekend. Marrone complained in a letter to McQuaid that selection to the Grand Tours and other important races are supposed to be by regulation, "based on pure merit and ethical sport".


Smacks of Systematic, organised attacks via his stooges. A protest that led to him being suspended for 4 months btw.

Lost_BMW

12,955 posts

56 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
One thing that has puzzled me is tat it's widely reported that Armstrong has never said that he didn't take PEDs, just things like, "I have never failed a test." or "I never cheated" (which could be massaged away if everyone else was on PEDs, as still remaining on al level playing field) yet here is a quote that suggests he did actually say he had not taken drugs.

"Armstrong last night dismissed the investigation as a “witch-hunt”. “I have never doped,” he affirmed in a statement.

from:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-and-simeon...


I wonder if it is a direct quote or they massaged the words?

JRM

1,856 posts

112 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
el stovey said:
Foggy748 said:
fk em all Lance. You were the best for 7 years - drugs or no drugs, you were the best.
Best at doping and bulying and lying.
Exactly.
No one respects Michael Johnson for cheating in the 100m Olympics even though plenty of others took steroids in sprinting and he was the fastest by a mile. Lance might impress some of you with his single-mindedness and I can see your point, but there are others, equally driven who managed to restrain themselves from cheating - unfortunately LA didn't have the backbone to do that nor come out and be honest like Landis et al eventually did.

The guy I want to see go down is Hein Verbruggen for covering all this up - esp Lance's positive dope test in 2001. Staggering that he is now on the Olympic committee, but I suspect being bent is a pre-requisite

mcelliott

2,240 posts

61 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
JRM said:
Exactly.
No one respects Ben Johnson for cheating in the 100m Olympics even though plenty of others took steroids in sprinting and he was the fastest by a mile. Lance might impress some of you with his single-mindedness and I can see your point, but there are others, equally driven who managed to restrain themselves from cheating - unfortunately LA didn't have the backbone to do that nor come out and be honest like Landis et al eventually did.

The guy I want to see go down is Hein Verbruggen for covering all this up - esp Lance's positive dope test in 2001. Staggering that he is now on the Olympic committee, but I suspect being bent is a pre-requisite
smile

JRM

1,856 posts

112 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Whoops - thanks for correction

Robsti

5,307 posts

86 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Rocksteadyeddie said:
A quick look at Christophe Bassons, Felipe Simeoni, Paul Kimmage etc etc should disabuse anyone of this notion. Lots of guys rode clean. They were denied the opportunity to win, or even to compete, and to earn a living by Armstrong and the culture that he was a kingpin in promoting. Brian Smith wrote a good article in yesterday's Mail. To suggest "everyone" was at it does a huge disservice to those who refused to do so and paid the price for living to their values.
Good article,and a very good point about all the team mates now coming out when their careers are all but over but keeping hold of wealth that the cheating provided!

If you give people the incentive to cheat if the punishments are not harsh enough then they will.

Can the confiscation of criminal proceeds be used to get the money back from these cheats?

aspender

982 posts

145 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Robsti said:
Can the confiscation of criminal proceeds be used to get the money back from these cheats?
Outside of France or Italy doping is not a crime.

Digger

7,833 posts

71 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
He'll more than likely be back in a court of some description soon enough . . .

As an example . . .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/lance-...

Robsti

5,307 posts

86 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
aspender said:
Robsti said:
Can the confiscation of criminal proceeds be used to get the money back from these cheats?
Outside of France or Italy doping is not a crime.
But the crime was committed in France?
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