Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
mattnunn said:
It's my belief that top level sport is riddled with drugs and the doping technology is at least two or three years ahead of the testing technology.
I maybe naively thought drugs was limited to just a few sports nowadays, baseball & american football being the major ones. (now i'm not pointing out any links between american and dugs here!) But I think it is pretty obvious that drugs will be wherever they can help out, and wherever there is enough money to warrant them. Football, Tennis, Swimming, etc etc.mattnunn said:
It's a pretty fine line between securing an advantage through good training practice and use of diet and supplements and cheating by doping anyway. Beetroot juice, should we ban it?
I don't think it's that fine a line. the difference between human growth hormone and redbull is night and dayAnyone listening to the 5 Live documentary report? Tyler Hamilton and Basson were eye opening - Basson offered a salary hike from 4000 euros per month to 45000 if he took the dope (for the team) which he refused. Have to admit I'd have taken it!
But sounds like the paranoia and fear of being caught were a heavy burden.
But sounds like the paranoia and fear of being caught were a heavy burden.
Derek Smith said:
DJRC said:
dangerousB said:
DJRC said:
Erm the perjury angle...has he perjured himself in court?
Under oath at a 2005 Arbitration hearing in Dallas, he repeatedly told the court that he'd never used, trafficked or been involved in any way with PED's, when asked whether there was any truth in the rumours about him using EPO, testosterone, HGF and cortisone.This hearing was his doing - he took SCA Promotions and Hamman Insurance Services to court after SCA refused to give a $5m bonus after the LA Confidential book was published which contained those allegations.
After his sworn testimony, SCA settled before judgment and gave him $7.5m to cover the bonus, fees and legal costs.
Which if all true then is what the authorities in the US should have done in the first place. Take the USDA dossier and rather than dick about in public with it all, use it to build a perjury case against LA and hit him with it on trial, fully prepped to the works, perfected by the lawyers. Not gone off in their half arsed manner.
mattnunn said:
Robsti said:
I have been given a hard time over my views on life bans but the only way to stop drugs cheats is to make the being caught the end of their careers!
A few will still chance it because of the rewards of success are great but when a couple of big names are banished for ever then the penny will drop!
No it won't. Because sport is not like a normal career job, sport is a meritocracy that judges you absolutely on your last result, if someone feels that taking drugs will allow them to win and they are of the mindset that winning is all (as most champions are), they will take them - if they win they will continue to take them until they are caught or retire. These people are not like you and I, to get a chance of a top level sporting career you've already sacrificed must of your childhood and education to training and competing, some people are happy to just be ther but the ones who win win because they are prepared to go the extra distance.A few will still chance it because of the rewards of success are great but when a couple of big names are banished for ever then the penny will drop!
Armstrong would have gotten away with this had it not been for the fact that tour ricing is a team sport and he needed his team mates to succeed for him to succeed and he had the power to create a culture (although cycling culture has included doping for many years)
It's my belief that top level sport is riddled with drugs and the doping technology is at least two or three years ahead of the testing technology.
It's a pretty fine line between securing an advantage through good training practice and use of diet and supplements and cheating by doping anyway. Beetroot juice, should we ban it?
te!Robsti said:
TedMaul said:
Efbe said:
HundredthIdiot said:
TedMaul said:
But what would achieve, what is the public benefit?
Discouraging people from perjuring themselves. Justice. Due process being seen to be done. All the usual stuff that justifies prosecuting people for crimes.If LA is not brought to court on perjury, even though it is not doping it will essentially give the green light to trying to get past the drugs checks any way you can
Cycling needs to do something about its image right now. Though I don't agree with setting an example, he amount of damage LA has done to the sport is horrendous and needs to be dealt with.
what can anyone actually do, jail him? He'd probably get a suspended sentance due to all the charity work and wouldnt see the inside of a cell.
As for cycling sorting out its reputation, I agree, there needs to be something dramatic to restore confidence, but unless LA and all dopers lose their wealth making their whole life plight pointless, it doesnt discourage others from doing likewise in
the future. Every incentive to cheat......
A few will still chance it because of the rewards of success are great but when a couple of big names are banished for ever then the penny will drop!
It pains me that those riders who have doped and been financially successful are unlikely to lose their ill gotten gains, but we live in an imperfect world where people are both fallible, and respond to incentives such as that outlined for Christophe Bassons above. I'd love to say that I would have had the strength of character that he showed in refusing the money but I'm not sure that I would have done. A lifetime ban might look great on paper - a bit like the death penalty -but in reality wouldn't work as a deterrent.
Rocksteadyeddie said:
Robsti said:
TedMaul said:
Efbe said:
HundredthIdiot said:
TedMaul said:
But what would achieve, what is the public benefit?
Discouraging people from perjuring themselves. Justice. Due process being seen to be done. All the usual stuff that justifies prosecuting people for crimes.If LA is not brought to court on perjury, even though it is not doping it will essentially give the green light to trying to get past the drugs checks any way you can
Cycling needs to do something about its image right now. Though I don't agree with setting an example, he amount of damage LA has done to the sport is horrendous and needs to be dealt with.
what can anyone actually do, jail him? He'd probably get a suspended sentance due to all the charity work and wouldnt see the inside of a cell.
As for cycling sorting out its reputation, I agree, there needs to be something dramatic to restore confidence, but unless LA and all dopers lose their wealth making their whole life plight pointless, it doesnt discourage others from doing likewise in
the future. Every incentive to cheat......
A few will still chance it because of the rewards of success are great but when a couple of big names are banished for ever then the penny will drop!
It pains me that those riders who have doped and been financially successful are unlikely to lose their ill gotten gains, but we live in an imperfect world where people are both fallible, and respond to incentives such as that outlined for Christophe Bassons above. I'd love to say that I would have had the strength of character that he showed in refusing the money but I'm not sure that I would have done. A lifetime ban might look great on paper - a bit like the death penalty -but in reality wouldn't work as a deterrent.
Lost_BMW said:
Anyone listening to the 5 Live documentary report? Tyler Hamilton and Basson were eye opening - Basson offered a salary hike from 4000 euros per month to 45000 if he took the dope (for the team) which he refused. Have to admit I'd have taken it!
But sounds like the paranoia and fear of being caught were a heavy burden.
Fascinating listening to Tyler Hamilton's account, the rewards were high but the risks even higher.But sounds like the paranoia and fear of being caught were a heavy burden.
mcelliott said:
Lost_BMW said:
Anyone listening to the 5 Live documentary report? Tyler Hamilton and Basson were eye opening - Basson offered a salary hike from 4000 euros per month to 45000 if he took the dope (for the team) which he refused. Have to admit I'd have taken it!
But sounds like the paranoia and fear of being caught were a heavy burden.
Fascinating listening to Tyler Hamilton's account, the rewards were high but the risks even higher.But sounds like the paranoia and fear of being caught were a heavy burden.
Loads of reasons to take PEDS and only a couple against really - fear for health, fear of getting caught (well managed for some) and the self-policing moral argument, that seems a hollow victory when you know so many others are rubbing your nose in your own honesty.
I feel really sorry for those who refused and ended up ruined and belittled.
Lost_BMW said:
I feel really sorry for those who refused and ended up ruined and belittled.
Exactly this - and let's not forget 25 years ago (pre Festina), the original whistle blowers Gilles Delion and Paul Kimmage raising their heads above the paripit to raise the subject of the "two speed peleton". Brave brave people, the real heros of the sport.mcelliott said:
Lost_BMW said:
I feel really sorry for those who refused and ended up ruined and belittled.
Exactly this - and let's not forget 25 years ago (pre Festina), the original whistle blowers Gilles Delion and Paul Kimmage raising their heads above the paripit to raise the subject of the "two speed peleton". Brave brave people, the real heros of the sport.If half of what is coming out about him is true it makes me utterly despise Armstrong and I hope, if finally nailed, he falls as fast as those he persecuted.
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