Lance Armstrong vs. USADA
Discussion
With the rewards winning brings in sports nowadays, it's pretty naive to believe most elite athletes are not on some dubious performance enhancing substance of some kind. These single minded individuals would do pretty much anything to gain an advantage over their competitors.
If they know what they've doing, they'd have to be pretty complacent to get caught.
If they know what they've doing, they'd have to be pretty complacent to get caught.
This is certainly a huge problem now for the sport. especially in this new clean era of cycling. Astana being granted a licence is a farce. Credibility is climbing out of the window and about to leap off the ledge.
However, cycling does seem to be the public whipping boy for the media as far as drugs cheating goes doesn't it. Joe Public is ridiculously naive as far as doping problems in other sports and thinks only cycling has an endemic problem, when all pro sports are riddled with drugs cheats.
If the UCI doesn't make a genuine stand then this will be worse than farce. You feel bad somehow for questioning performances like Contador gave in the Vuelta this year (regardless of his past) because of all the posturing from the sport and the riders about it being clean now etc etc. Im not feeling so bad about being suspicious of some performances in recent years now.
However, cycling does seem to be the public whipping boy for the media as far as drugs cheating goes doesn't it. Joe Public is ridiculously naive as far as doping problems in other sports and thinks only cycling has an endemic problem, when all pro sports are riddled with drugs cheats.
If the UCI doesn't make a genuine stand then this will be worse than farce. You feel bad somehow for questioning performances like Contador gave in the Vuelta this year (regardless of his past) because of all the posturing from the sport and the riders about it being clean now etc etc. Im not feeling so bad about being suspicious of some performances in recent years now.
johnxjsc1985 said:
mcelliott said:
So the UCI have granted Astana their world Tour licence and Cookson's remit was to come in and clean up cycling. This sport is an utter piss take.
WOW and WOW again I thought they would at least defer it until further information had been gathered.neilr said:
However, cycling does seem to be the public whipping boy for the media as far as drugs cheating goes doesn't it. Joe Public is ridiculously naive as far as doping problems in other sports and thinks only cycling has an endemic problem, when all pro sports are riddled with drugs cheats.
I have some insight into a couple of sports at pro level and have seen how rife PED are. I agree, fans are naive to how prevalent their use is.I think it's more of an issue in cycling because, as a sport, it is more heavily biased towards fitness than other sports which require more skill. Not to downplay the skills required in cycling but you could be a contender in many sports without being the most physically fit if your skills and techniques were honed. Not so in cycling.
That Europcar have had thir license denied because they failed to meet the UCI finaincial assessment makes the Astana farce worse though bar the Iglinsky issue, which I assume the Astana WT team have claimed was an isolated incident, operating against team instructions etc etc, the other positive tests were the Astana PT team and alledgedly run by a separate team, still stinks though, Vino, Ferari et al...
I saw Emma O'Reilly was back in the news again this week too making some irrelevant statement about Lance being a bully, as I seem to recall she thought it was all a lot of fun at the time, racing round Europe arranging couriers and organising drop offs just to win a cycle race...
I saw Emma O'Reilly was back in the news again this week too making some irrelevant statement about Lance being a bully, as I seem to recall she thought it was all a lot of fun at the time, racing round Europe arranging couriers and organising drop offs just to win a cycle race...
Gruffy said:
I have some insight into a couple of sports at pro level and have seen how rife PED are. I agree, fans are naive to how prevalent their use is.
I think it's more of an issue in cycling because, as a sport, it is more heavily biased towards fitness than other sports which require more skill. Not to downplay the skills required in cycling but you could be a contender in many sports without being the most physically fit if your skills and techniques were honed. Not so in cycling.
I follow another sport. My lad was successful in under 19s trials, country and other levels.I think it's more of an issue in cycling because, as a sport, it is more heavily biased towards fitness than other sports which require more skill. Not to downplay the skills required in cycling but you could be a contender in many sports without being the most physically fit if your skills and techniques were honed. Not so in cycling.
I have seen many of the current top level pros, and internationals, when they were 17-18 years old. One thing that concerned me was that these lads 'disappeared' from contests where they could be tested, being resurrected some 18 mnths later physically different. They joined fast-tracking schemes and such.
My lad was a personal trainer, in the gym for some 10 hours a day, five days a week. Even on match days he'd spend a couple of hours in the gym before going to the club or catching the coach. Twice a week he would train with a level five, then level four, club and play matches on a Saturday.
He was dwarfed by some of those whom he'd been frightened of tackling too hard in case he hurt them.
Talk about this missing period to those with some authority, nowhere near the top, and they just laugh or say there's nothing to be concerned about.
I saw one lad who had everything: he was fast, accelerated like he'd been shot out of a cannon, would twist and turn and there was no stopping him. In one county match he played in, with my lad, they other team put three players on him.
All of a sudden, the lithe, athletic lad who could mesmerise with his skills bulked out massively. He'd changed.
I went to see him play one evening, up in London. It was an international club match. My two sons and I wandered out to see the foreigners get off their coach. They walked right past us as we clapped. I'm 6'2" (now) and my elder son is a fraction shorter. So three 6'+ blokes had to look up at the players as they came past. When a bloke a fraction shorter than us came past my lad said to a supporter next to him: Nice to see someone I don't have to crane my neck to see. The chap said something like: He's bringing the drugs, or perhaps something about him being the doctor.
Hilarious. It just shows that we know what everyone knows.
I don't want to pick on one particular international and televised track/field sport as I doubt there is one professional sport where drugs abuse is not rife.
I am relieved that my lad has stopped at being a semi professional.
I talk to parents who bring their children to the club to learn to play the sport. Their biggest concern seems to be the risk of serious injury. I always feel like saying to them: 'Nah, don't worry about that. It's the pressure to take drugs that's the real problem.'
He's got a beautiful body. He walks into a room and every woman there stares at him. When we moved recently the fridge/freezer needed shifting. He picked it up and his partner just stood there, almost drooling. I asked him once if he'd aver taken body building drugs and he said, all casually, 'I've never had to.' Cool or what? But if he'd played at the top two levels he'd have had to or given up on his dream.
I remember reading some years ago that professional stage cycling was the unhealthiest sport there because of what the drugs did to the body. For arguable reasons, it is one of the leaders in drugs abuse and performance enhancing techniques. Many might feel that part of the reason must be that the officiating body didn't/doesn't really care as long as it remains popular. Suggesting that the problem is that the teams have more money is only part of the answer. There are testing techniques that can reduce it considerably. But the mind of those in control needs to go with it.
Armstrong's boast that he was the most tested sportsman in the world shows that the testing is failing.
I feel concerned for my sport. It isn't only the highest levels. My lad said that illegal, in the sense of being against the sport laws, drugs are easily available at 'virtually' all professional gyms. When he was at a gym he was known for playing high level in his sport and aspirants, including players (for other teams) would approach him for advice on what to take. Whilst exercise was his answer, these were lowish level players who felt that the only way to get on was to pump drugs, and not iron.
Hahahahahahhaaaaa http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/30981609
Don1 said:
Hahahahahahhaaaaa http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/30981609
You're so right, in a sport which honours drug cheats like Marco Pantani and Miguel Indurain, and yet they strip Armstrong of all his titles. Hilarious indeed. Filthy sport top to bottom.I think the authorities have always been a big problem in cycling going as far back as the 60's.
My big hero as a kid was Tommy Simpson he still is but only a fool would believe drugs did not play a part in his death.
With Astana competing after the terrible year of positives drug tests in their squad you have to ask do they really want to stop Drugs.
If I were Lance Armstrong I too would be miffed that others who had drugged kept their titles.
I can only suggest that the UCI have a zero tolerance on drugs and a life ban imposed on any positive test.
Its still a sport I love but when I see riders in the high mountains accelerate away like a sprinter it leaves me asking questions.
My big hero as a kid was Tommy Simpson he still is but only a fool would believe drugs did not play a part in his death.
With Astana competing after the terrible year of positives drug tests in their squad you have to ask do they really want to stop Drugs.
If I were Lance Armstrong I too would be miffed that others who had drugged kept their titles.
I can only suggest that the UCI have a zero tolerance on drugs and a life ban imposed on any positive test.
Its still a sport I love but when I see riders in the high mountains accelerate away like a sprinter it leaves me asking questions.
Have UCL/USADA stripped 2nd and 3rd places for the same years Lance A won? My understanding its been proved that no one in the first 10 odd places tested positive.
I guess he is miffed that the other banned cheats have not had titles stripped - and the sole reason is he was not a very nice person made a few people's lives a torture by bullying (which happens everywhere all over the world).
What about Ched Evens? A convicted rapist is allowed to carry on playing his sport - I guess UCL /WADA/USADA consider rape a lesser crime than taking performance enhancing drugs. They also don't like fining the team owners who allowed their staff to take drugs and also don't ban them from the sport. They don't ban doctors for life from practicing their profession...
Take the individual out of the debate and it becomes laughable.
I guess he is miffed that the other banned cheats have not had titles stripped - and the sole reason is he was not a very nice person made a few people's lives a torture by bullying (which happens everywhere all over the world).
What about Ched Evens? A convicted rapist is allowed to carry on playing his sport - I guess UCL /WADA/USADA consider rape a lesser crime than taking performance enhancing drugs. They also don't like fining the team owners who allowed their staff to take drugs and also don't ban them from the sport. They don't ban doctors for life from practicing their profession...
Take the individual out of the debate and it becomes laughable.
I like Armstrong as a competitor, his problem was he grew up believing that winning was the only thing in life no matter what. His story is quite unique. No father, beating Cancer, becoming a world wide Cancer campaigner,TDF record breaker followed by becoming a complete douche bag and virtually losing everything.
It must be confusing for him because up to his mid-thirties he had never had to answer for anything I guess he was used to people saying Yes to him.
The UCI a bit like FIFA in football needs breaking down and starting again
It must be confusing for him because up to his mid-thirties he had never had to answer for anything I guess he was used to people saying Yes to him.
The UCI a bit like FIFA in football needs breaking down and starting again
Welshbeef said:
But all top sports people only want to win at all costs
Schumacher
Prost
Senna
Tyson
Hunt
What about coaches? And team managers winning is everything
What about CEO's?
What about playing Board games... Who does anything just to take part ? Winning is everything that's a drug in itself
Taking something you know will make you faster or stronger is not unique to cycling look at the athletic records since the fall of the Soviet union and Eastern bloc countries particularly womens athletic records.Schumacher
Prost
Senna
Tyson
Hunt
What about coaches? And team managers winning is everything
What about CEO's?
What about playing Board games... Who does anything just to take part ? Winning is everything that's a drug in itself
I have never been a professional sportsperson and I expect the pressure of earning a living as an individual competitor is huge and when you think you maybe getting beat by guys who are doping and not getting caught what do you do.
I think there are subtle differences between Armstrong and people like Pantani.
Firstly, Armstrong has few redeeming features while most the others have something, or at least a certain vulnerability. Armstrong's doping was so over the top he virtually could not possibly lose the Tours he doped through. The collateral damage in his wake was off the scale, he was so outspoken he crushed the clean riders and made their jobs and lives impossible. He abused the position as being the great clean saviour of the sport after Festina. Even when he was obviously guilty he steadfastly refused to acknowledge it, and he lied under oath.
But I agree that life time bans should be given also to the likes of Riis, Vino and the brazen dopers who still make a healthy living at the forefront of the sport. That said, Armstrong could have avoided a lifetime ban if he had played ball with USADA and not been a total dick about it.
Firstly, Armstrong has few redeeming features while most the others have something, or at least a certain vulnerability. Armstrong's doping was so over the top he virtually could not possibly lose the Tours he doped through. The collateral damage in his wake was off the scale, he was so outspoken he crushed the clean riders and made their jobs and lives impossible. He abused the position as being the great clean saviour of the sport after Festina. Even when he was obviously guilty he steadfastly refused to acknowledge it, and he lied under oath.
But I agree that life time bans should be given also to the likes of Riis, Vino and the brazen dopers who still make a healthy living at the forefront of the sport. That said, Armstrong could have avoided a lifetime ban if he had played ball with USADA and not been a total dick about it.
How can they rate rape less of a crime to doping?
How can they ban all types of sport not just the ones within their remit?
Why don't they find and ban the managers and owners of the guilty tems ditto the doctors who gave them the drugs.
It was a conspiracy everyone was in on it each team actually it was probably more or less a level playing field.
As for other sports what about Honda with Button cheating with the super big fuel tanks so they could run under weight. Properly cheating knowing what you are doing yet a season ban and that's it. They didn't come clean they were caught out.
What about belly putters? What about blades v hallow cast
What about different shaped squash racquets
What about those who only eat certain diets taking in barurally more minerals. What about not allowing the male to have sex for 3 weeks before a big event boosting testosterone --- while his component could have the night before unfair advantage.
How can they ban all types of sport not just the ones within their remit?
Why don't they find and ban the managers and owners of the guilty tems ditto the doctors who gave them the drugs.
It was a conspiracy everyone was in on it each team actually it was probably more or less a level playing field.
As for other sports what about Honda with Button cheating with the super big fuel tanks so they could run under weight. Properly cheating knowing what you are doing yet a season ban and that's it. They didn't come clean they were caught out.
What about belly putters? What about blades v hallow cast
What about different shaped squash racquets
What about those who only eat certain diets taking in barurally more minerals. What about not allowing the male to have sex for 3 weeks before a big event boosting testosterone --- while his component could have the night before unfair advantage.
Welshbeef said:
How can they rate rape less of a crime to doping?
That's irrelevant; raping someone doesn't increase one's sporting ability. Ched Evans was found guilty of a crime, served the sentence and is now a free man. My knowledge of football is limited so please correct me, but unless there are certain rules that restrict his trade because of previous sexual crimes, then he should be allowed to do what he does as a profession, in this case football, albeit with a stigma wrapped around his neck. Sure, play football, but don't expect a loving crowd.As far as Armstrong goes, he'll believe anything he says and thinks everyone else should too; he still doesn't understand the scale of destruction he has caused through his sociopathy. A better shrink needed, perhaps?
Welshbeef said:
How can they rate rape less of a crime to doping?
How can they ban all types of sport not just the ones within their remit?
Why don't they find and ban the managers and owners of the guilty tems ditto the doctors who gave them the drugs.
It was a conspiracy everyone was in on it each team actually it was probably more or less a level playing field.
As for other sports what about Honda with Button cheating with the super big fuel tanks so they could run under weight. Properly cheating knowing what you are doing yet a season ban and that's it. They didn't come clean they were caught out.
What about belly putters? What about blades v hallow cast
What about different shaped squash racquets
What about those who only eat certain diets taking in barurally more minerals. What about not allowing the male to have sex for 3 weeks before a big event boosting testosterone --- while his component could have the night before unfair advantage.
The rules in a sport are essentially completely arbitrary. The decision to compete in the sport is a decision to follow those rules. The competition is a competition to find the person who can perform best under those rules.How can they ban all types of sport not just the ones within their remit?
Why don't they find and ban the managers and owners of the guilty tems ditto the doctors who gave them the drugs.
It was a conspiracy everyone was in on it each team actually it was probably more or less a level playing field.
As for other sports what about Honda with Button cheating with the super big fuel tanks so they could run under weight. Properly cheating knowing what you are doing yet a season ban and that's it. They didn't come clean they were caught out.
What about belly putters? What about blades v hallow cast
What about different shaped squash racquets
What about those who only eat certain diets taking in barurally more minerals. What about not allowing the male to have sex for 3 weeks before a big event boosting testosterone --- while his component could have the night before unfair advantage.
The rules generally don't forbid you from eating a certain diet, and they don't forbid you from abstaining from sex. So it's pretty simple really, those things are fine. Taking PEDs is against the rules, so is not fine. Having optimal equipment within the rules is fine. Having equipment outside of the rules is not fine.
Couldn't be easier!
Jacobyte said:
That's irrelevant; raping someone doesn't increase one's sporting ability. Ched Evans was found guilty of a crime, served the sentence and is now a free man. My knowledge of football is limited so please correct me, but unless there are certain rules that restrict his trade because of previous sexual crimes, then he should be allowed to do what he does as a profession, in this case football, albeit with a stigma wrapped around his neck. Sure, play football, but don't expect a loving crowd.
As far as Armstrong goes, he'll believe anything he says and thinks everyone else should too; he still doesn't understand the scale of destruction he has caused through his sociopathy. A better shrink needed, perhaps?
Why were the owners and management team also banned for life and fined accordingly - they were either complicit or unaware neither are acceptable attributes for such high ranking figures in the sport. As far as Armstrong goes, he'll believe anything he says and thinks everyone else should too; he still doesn't understand the scale of destruction he has caused through his sociopathy. A better shrink needed, perhaps?
Why can they ban him from all sports? His profession is cycling ban him from that ok they can justify it but let's say he wanted to go F1 how on earth can they give LA a global ban on all sports?
Why do they refuse to wipe out the 2nd and 3rd places from those same torus given its factually known they were all doping with test results to prove it? Why were those who were banned not stripped previously? Why was not the worthy winner given the award?
Why is the complicit regulator not sacked and quashed replaced with a totally new setup to wipe away the past?
Why are people so hung up about LA being a really horrible person who possibly ruined a few lives.... Um that's life there are tens of millions if not hundreds of millions if not possibly a billion not very nice people countless vastly worse than him. That's a behavioural issue.
Why can he not compete in sport raising money for charity? He still has plenty of supporters who would contribute it makes no sense and maybe that's the way he "repays" society.
At the end of the day he doped (along with most of the pentagon - possibly took the most we will never know) was unpleasant to 10ish people who claim it ruined their lives (likely true but they were adults).
He didn't rape GBH incest nonce kill no armed robbery no hostage instead a vastly lesser crime of cheating a sport. It has to be viewed like that as so many get really get up about him and think its outrageous - well its not a big deal at all in the grand scheme.
Welshbeef said:
At the end of the day he doped (along with most of the pentagon - possibly took the most we will never know) was unpleasant to 10ish people who claim it ruined their lives (likely true but they were adults).
Welsh, read through this thread. the questions you are asking have been answered numerous times.Your specific questions suggest that you have not really understood what he did, how he did it or how the sport was changed by him.
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