Lance Armstrong vs. USADA

Lance Armstrong vs. USADA

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Discussion

mcelliott

8,626 posts

180 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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AndStilliRise said:
Vile man. Hopefully he will lose some more.
What narks you most then? The fact that he's a twot or the fact that he's cheated. Would you like to see the same happen to George Hincapie, Jan Ullrich, Eric Zabel and countless others - who incidentally profited greatly from Armstrong's cheating, all part of very sophisticated and organised doping programs, who went on to win huge races when fully doped. Shall we run them out of town too?

12TS

1,806 posts

209 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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mcelliott said:
What narks you most then? The fact that he's a twot or the fact that he's cheated. Would you like to see the same happen to George Hincapie, Jan Ullrich, Eric Zabel and countless others - who incidentally profited greatly from Armstrong's cheating, all part of very sophisticated and organised doping programs, who went on to win huge races when fully doped. Shall we run them out of town too?
Sure they all doped as well. It was the way he bullied and doped I don't like. Read what he did to Christophe Bassons and Frankie Andreu's wife. Nasty man.

Edited by 12TS on Monday 16th February 19:59

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
12TS said:
mcelliott said:
What narks you most then? The fact that he's a twot or the fact that he's cheated. Would you like to see the same happen to George Hincapie, Jan Ullrich, Eric Zabel and countless others - who incidentally profited greatly from Armstrong's cheating, all part of very sophisticated and organised doping programs, who went on to win huge races when fully doped. Shall we run them out of town too?
Sure they all doped as well. It was the way he bullied and doped I don't like. Read what he did to Frerick Bassons and Frankie Andreu's wife. Nasty man.
The problem with cycling is that everyone did it because that was the only way to stay in touch. And the instigator of this?

Armstrong brought a new professionalism to drug taking in cycling. No one else came close. No cyclist could expect to be a team leader without sophisticated drug taking techniques because of Armstrong.

I agree also with the bullying. Everyone should read what he did against Betty(?) and his masseur.

What irks me most though was that, at least early on, I believed that a man with his athletic ability could overcome cancer and go on to become the best in the world. I remember standing up and cheering when he 'came again' on a mountain. There is not doubt he was inspiring. Now we know that he lied, lied and lied again. The most irksome thing is that he could have been inspiring, we could be discussing the best cyclist ever, if he had not organised the most sophisticated drugs taking system in the history of the sport. Some say in the history of western sport.

This was not a case of a few injections to put on bulk, or an amphet-like drug on day 12 of the Tour. His Irish masseur gives a graphic account of what he told the doctor, on diagnosis of cancer, when asked what drugs he had taken, She was shocked. What is remarkable is that so many others, not even professional cyclists, knew the level of Armstrong's drug taking at that time.

There is little evidence to contradict those who say he is a nasty, nasty man.


mcelliott

8,626 posts

180 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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I am certainly not defending Lance Armstrong, although I do think that most people have had their pound of flesh now (IMO), however what is slightly annoying in this sport is the amount of people that have got away with cheating to the level of Lance Armstrong, certainly in terms of doping, not necessarily the intimidation or bullying, and have not had to pay a single dime in recompense. Plus in many cases, these people are still hugely involved in the sport and making lots of money from it. Very odd.

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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mcelliott said:
I am certainly not defending Lance Armstrong, although I do think that most people have had their pound of flesh now (IMO), however what is slightly annoying in this sport is the amount of people that have got away with cheating to the level of Lance Armstrong, certainly in terms of doping, not necessarily the intimidation or bullying, and have not had to pay a single dime in recompense.
I accept that it does seem something of a witch hunt now, ironic really given that Armstrong used the term previously when it was nothing of the sort. However, I think the point is that no one else was able to match the Armstrong team's sophistication with drugs systems. And so he was pushing them to take more.

Had Armstrong done what many of the other drug takers have done, such as admit it when caught, rather than enter into a repeat of lies and more lies, I think his punishment would have been lower.

A ban, to a competitive cyclist, is an expensive option.

I've never seen the enjoyment many people take in bringing down those who've achieved a great deal. I remember the criticism of Guy Gibson, VC, for naming his dog. No one's perfect. But there's feet of clay and feet of clay.


Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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Why are those who also cheated not required to pay back prize money?
Why are the team owners who were complicit and allowed it to happen not in jail or fined?
Why is the ICL or WADA taken apart as they were either complicit or utterly ineffective and broken so scrap and start again ?
Nasty person /vile nasty person has nothing to do with a sports governing body especially as it was against what 6-12 people? Also seems that many even on here respect J Savile or consider his VILE crimes on a similar level which if they honestly do then they are sick in the head

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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Welshbeef said:
Why are those who also cheated not required to pay back prize money?
Why are the team owners who were complicit and allowed it to happen not in jail or fined?
Why is the ICL or WADA taken apart as they were either complicit or utterly ineffective and broken so scrap and start again ?
Nasty person /vile nasty person has nothing to do with a sports governing body especially as it was against what 6-12 people? Also seems that many even on here respect J Savile or consider his VILE crimes on a similar level which if they honestly do then they are sick in the head
Do you not have a single clue about what went on between Armstrong and SCA Promotions?

Might I suggest you look it up, read what it's about and see how none of your questions are at all apposite.



Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
JuniorD said:
Do you not have a single clue about what went on between Armstrong and SCA Promotions?

Might I suggest you look it up, read what it's about and see how none of your questions are at all apposite.
So are you honestly stating that if a competitor is caught taking illegal drugs yet won the game and the prize money should keep it all? Very odd.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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One question why do people care on here if he was as lovely as Miss Marple or as evil as Stalin?/Mass murdering pedophiles?

I don't get it. Sure it sounds he was a right tosser and vindictive etc and would do anything to stop them exposing his lies. Well there are hundred of millions heck possibly billions of people who are doing the same if not much worse all the time.


What about all those vile (husbands or wives) who cheat telling lies and destroying people's lives?

Potatoes

3,572 posts

169 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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Welshbeef said:
JuniorD said:
Do you not have a single clue about what went on between Armstrong and SCA Promotions?

Might I suggest you look it up, read what it's about and see how none of your questions are at all apposite.
So are you honestly stating that if a competitor is caught taking illegal drugs yet won the game and the prize money should keep it all? Very odd.
I don't think that's what he was suggesting.

...I'm not sure what he was suggesting as I'm not that read up on the subject but I'm not sure he was suggesting that.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
Why are the elusive postal team owners and management not being fined and banned from the sport for life and banned from being involved in any sport - risk is they are doing the same elsewhere plus they actually allowed their employee to operate in that way.


No one likes talking about these I've raised it many ones and discussion switches quickly here to nasty man - well hold on that doesn't answer the question.


Feels like what USA did to BP. Allowing them to be paying out more than Hurricane Katrina to individuals and companies who had zero impact or zero loss or actually didn't even have a company ... Vile system they have.

mcelliott

8,626 posts

180 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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As far as I'm aware, Armstrong's former team manager at US Postal, Johan Bruyneel, is currently serving a long ban away from the sport, but not jail time as far as I'm aware. So some of the 'management types' have been punished. In contrast to that however, you have Bjarne Riis....

johnxjsc1985

15,948 posts

163 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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Whilst Armstrong has been hung out to dry others have escaped with little more than a telling off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de...
Despite this I will watch every stage and love every minute of it this year

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
Potatoes said:
Welshbeef said:
JuniorD said:
Do you not have a single clue about what went on between Armstrong and SCA Promotions?

Might I suggest you look it up, read what it's about and see how none of your questions are at all apposite.
So are you honestly stating that if a competitor is caught taking illegal drugs yet won the game and the prize money should keep it all? Very odd.
I don't think that's what he was suggesting.

...I'm not sure what he was suggesting as I'm not that read up on the subject but I'm not sure he was suggesting that.
nope, I was not suggesting what the incredulous Welshbeef believes I was suggesting.

Lance Armstrong has not been required to pay back his prize money from races, and I don't believe that any rider has.

The money he fraudulenty obtained from SCA was the assurance they had to pay out to cover the contactual bonuses he was on for winning x amount of Tours.

It's like you leaving your keys in the car, and someone taking it. But you tell the insurance the sworn lie that the car was locked up, and had a million pound painting in the back, so they pay out for the lot. Then a few years later you admit the truth and the insurers think well fk that, we would like our money back you lying fkface.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
JuniorD said:
nope, I was not suggesting what the incredulous Welshbeef believes I was suggesting.

Lance Armstrong has not been required to pay back his prize money from races, and I don't believe that any rider has.

The money he fraudulenty obtained from SCA was the assurance they had to pay out to cover the contactual bonuses he was on for winning x amount of Tours.

It's like you leaving your keys in the car, and someone taking it. But you tell the insurance the sworn lie that the car was locked up, and had a million pound painting in the back, so they pay out for the lot. Then a few years later you admit the truth and the insurers think well fk that, we would like our money back you lying fkface.
So a bit like when some people who have been burgled state they had x qty of Bluray box sets all the games consoles with loads and loads of games a good SLR (no receipt) and PH yes rings OPOs all gone.

You know it happens


Anyway with LA clearly he had to chase them down for the bonus else people might start to think maybe he is cheating. There is logic in him doing this plus big deal he's actually ended up better off out of the bonus he received v what he has/will have to pay back...which seems bizarre in isolation.

mcelliott

8,626 posts

180 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
It's funny I've just watched the England football captain blatantly cheat to get a penalty, and then listened to the England football team manager defend his captain for blatantly cheating. Cheating is cheating isn't it...?

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
mcelliott said:
It's funny I've just watched the England football captain blatantly cheat to get a penalty, and then listened to the England football team manager defend his captain for blatantly cheating. Cheating is cheating isn't it...?
What about Honda F1 with Button and ? Huge fuel tanks fitted and part filled to ensure it showed the min weight but in race it was quicker as it emptied the tank and was much lighter --- totally illegal competitive advantage.

Rugby - bloodgate
Rugby - special call 66 (all in fighting as the red cannot send off the entire team)

1966 England goal which wasn't a goal..

Mexico World Cup hand of God cheating

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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Your point being what exactly?

You saw the England captain instantaneously cheat against the rules of The Particular Team Game he /she was playing, and which everyone but the ref could see for their own eyes

Armstrong cheated against the international doping code. That's like the England captain you talk about cheating every single second of the match continuously, like if he was a banned player wearing a disguise and with a remote control up his shirt controlling the ball at his whim.

In other words, there is little comparison, even if you could contrive a parallel.

I must admit defeat at this point, I can't think of anymore metaphors that might satisfy the braindead on thisatter.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
JuniorD said:
Your point being what exactly?

You saw the England captain instantaneously cheat against the rules of The Particular Team Game he /she was playing, and which everyone but the ref could see for their own eyes

Armstrong cheated against the international doping code. That's like the England captain you talk about cheating every single second of the match continuously, like if he was a banned player wearing a disguise and with a remote control up his shirt controlling the ball at his whim.

In other words, there is little comparison, even if you could contrive a parallel.

I must admit defeat at this point, I can't think of anymore metaphors that might satisfy the braindead on thisatter.
Oh you mean like match fixing - yes Crocket, Football, yes they play the whole game with fixing the result as the sole objective so cheating the entire game.

Lots of comparison and why do it ? £

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Monday 16th February 2015
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Yeah you're probably right, Lance was the best at cycling, plus everyone cheats in sports and gets away with it particularly in cycling, so they should leave him alone, and let him enjoy a happy, wealthy and well earned retirement.