The Tennis Thread
Discussion
.its pretty remarkable that even the gulf at times between world no.1 and 2 can be so marked at times.
had andy broken early in the second set we might be thinking different things but joko is now one of the greats of the game no question.
Andy has done brilliantly and deserves a lot of credit but for those players that can do it more consistently when it matters he'd have won more tournaments....
joko is getting like Jimmy White's Hendry
had andy broken early in the second set we might be thinking different things but joko is now one of the greats of the game no question.
Andy has done brilliantly and deserves a lot of credit but for those players that can do it more consistently when it matters he'd have won more tournaments....
joko is getting like Jimmy White's Hendry
Barring injuries I don't ever see Andy beating Djokovic in a slam again. I think the gap will only widen as they both age. I would be very surprised if Novak doesn't get the golden slam this year followed by another 1 or 2 calendar slams leading to 20+ slams
Andy is good enough to keep getting into finals but he will be facing Novak if the seedings stay the same.
Andy is good enough to keep getting into finals but he will be facing Novak if the seedings stay the same.
That's why he will likely never beat Djokovic at a slam, he doesn't have the ingrained fight till the end mentality like Djokovic. It's not something that's determined by form but in his personality. I don't think we will ever see Djokovic beaten "easily", even when he's lost half a yard of speed he will evolve to keep fighting. Mark of a champion.
No doubt technically and physically Murray is more than a match for Djokovic.
No doubt technically and physically Murray is more than a match for Djokovic.
That's because he's played two people in the final and has a losing record to both; aggregate losses of 3 to both. Djokovic has more slams to his name by beating Murray more than any other individual.
I'm not exactly sure what we're debating about here...
Are you saying that Murray is just as likely to beat Novak as vice versa in the following couple of years assuming they both stay fit?
I'm not exactly sure what we're debating about here...
Are you saying that Murray is just as likely to beat Novak as vice versa in the following couple of years assuming they both stay fit?
I agree to a point but I really cannot see Djokovic "not turning up" to a grand slam final. During the course of a season he has maybe 1-2 off matches which he loses, the rest even at ATP 1000 are just on lockdown. He's made winning a habit at GS finals and Murray has made losing a habit. Murray setting new records for a number of final appearances without a win at the Australian.
I think Novak would like to get one over Murray at Wimbeldon and I can't see past those two in the finals there either.
If they stay No 1 and 2 for a couple of years then Murray will have chances to beat him in finals but it won't happen just like yesterday he had a chance and he didn't even get close.
I think Novak would like to get one over Murray at Wimbeldon and I can't see past those two in the finals there either.
If they stay No 1 and 2 for a couple of years then Murray will have chances to beat him in finals but it won't happen just like yesterday he had a chance and he didn't even get close.
Babw said:
I agree to a point but I really cannot see Djokovic "not turning up" to a grand slam final. During the course of a season he has maybe 1-2 off matches which he loses, the rest even at ATP 1000 are just on lockdown. He's made winning a habit at GS finals and Murray has made losing a habit. Murray setting new records for a number of final appearances without a win at the Australian.
I think Novak would like to get one over Murray at Wimbeldon and I can't see past those two in the finals there either.
If they stay No 1 and 2 for a couple of years then Murray will have chances to beat him in finals but it won't happen just like yesterday he had a chance and he didn't even get close.
Agreed, mentally it was man against boy. Novak light years ahead.I think Novak would like to get one over Murray at Wimbeldon and I can't see past those two in the finals there either.
If they stay No 1 and 2 for a couple of years then Murray will have chances to beat him in finals but it won't happen just like yesterday he had a chance and he didn't even get close.
Tennis players do seem to decline a bit earlier than other sportspeople so who knows what will happen to Djokovic and Murray, who both turn 30 next year, over the next handful of years. It's unlikely that they'll both decline at the same rate so perhaps Murray will have a couple of years where he starts getting the better of Novak? (Or of course it could go the other way and the current gap widens).
On that note it's going to be interesting to see how the current physical style of tennis (long rallies, several 4+ hour matches a week etc) will have on the bodies of players. I think this has already cost Rafa a couple of years at the very top during the latter end of his career. Of course Federer Bucks this trend but then his style of play is very unlike that ofNadal, Novak, Murray etc.
On that note it's going to be interesting to see how the current physical style of tennis (long rallies, several 4+ hour matches a week etc) will have on the bodies of players. I think this has already cost Rafa a couple of years at the very top during the latter end of his career. Of course Federer Bucks this trend but then his style of play is very unlike that ofNadal, Novak, Murray etc.
The true greats never look or looked mentally weak. Fed, Djoko, Nadal, a different level. Agassi with 8 majors, always smiling, upbeat and entertaining.
Even Borg, who threw his toys out regularly early doors, tuned into a personification of professionalism.
Murray ends up playing himself and his opponent at times. Looking miserable, dour and slouchy also takes it's toll. I think he has the talent, but mentally he's a child in comparison.
He could and should have achieved far more with his natural timing and ability.
Even Borg, who threw his toys out regularly early doors, tuned into a personification of professionalism.
Murray ends up playing himself and his opponent at times. Looking miserable, dour and slouchy also takes it's toll. I think he has the talent, but mentally he's a child in comparison.
He could and should have achieved far more with his natural timing and ability.
Djokovic raised his game a few years ago and Murray hasn't been able to match it, in ways that are all too apparent as he wears his heart on his sleeve.
I respect him for that and rather prefer it than being a closed emotional shop.
I think he can ultimately raise his game, he just needs the right coach to help him do it.
Lendl managed it, and could possibly do it again if the pair could agree terms. With the right coach to provide the extra mental focus needed and stability, I think he still has time to win slams.
Given his performance up to the final last week, he ought to be believing he could take them all...
I respect him for that and rather prefer it than being a closed emotional shop.
I think he can ultimately raise his game, he just needs the right coach to help him do it.
Lendl managed it, and could possibly do it again if the pair could agree terms. With the right coach to provide the extra mental focus needed and stability, I think he still has time to win slams.
Given his performance up to the final last week, he ought to be believing he could take them all...
I think there are 2 different perspectives here.
Murray the champion and Murray the underachiever. Depends what viewpoint you take, compared to billions out there he has done things we will never achieve. However that's missing half the story, the guy giving him a beating regularly has also achieved more than all the billions but also significantly more than Murray.
I think it's a bit pointless to reflect against mere mortals when you're obviously something special so it would be more reasonable to compare him to his talented rivals. The story of his great career can be told once he's hung up the racket and I'm sure he'll be celebrated even if he wins no more slams.
The point is that he's so close to winning more slams, getting to the finals is not an easy task and he does that regularly so making the small step to winning is a difference of a few percent. We can all agree that Murray has heavier shots and great tactics but he doesn't have the competitiveness (against his closest rivals not against Fred at your local club) or the stubbornness/desperation to keep fighting until the end like Novak.
(Novak himself has admitted that mentally he might have a slight edge over Andy, that's a big confession from a top pro about one of your rivals; Novak would never say on public media he might have a slightly better backhand than Federer even though everyone knows it because Fed might have the odd occasion where his backhand is on fire; to admit this Novak knows Murray will never have the edge over him mentally.)
It's all good Murray upping his game and giving Novak a better match but one thing is for sure, Novak will respond with even more determination and I don't think Murray has the ability to keep upping the stakes like that.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong but I don't think Murray will ever beat Novak in a slam again, his only chance is if someone else knocks Novak out which could happen because Novak has tougher match ups than Murray on the ATP like Stan? fit Federer? fit Nadal? and some of the younger guys who have no mental baggage against him.
Murray the champion and Murray the underachiever. Depends what viewpoint you take, compared to billions out there he has done things we will never achieve. However that's missing half the story, the guy giving him a beating regularly has also achieved more than all the billions but also significantly more than Murray.
I think it's a bit pointless to reflect against mere mortals when you're obviously something special so it would be more reasonable to compare him to his talented rivals. The story of his great career can be told once he's hung up the racket and I'm sure he'll be celebrated even if he wins no more slams.
The point is that he's so close to winning more slams, getting to the finals is not an easy task and he does that regularly so making the small step to winning is a difference of a few percent. We can all agree that Murray has heavier shots and great tactics but he doesn't have the competitiveness (against his closest rivals not against Fred at your local club) or the stubbornness/desperation to keep fighting until the end like Novak.
(Novak himself has admitted that mentally he might have a slight edge over Andy, that's a big confession from a top pro about one of your rivals; Novak would never say on public media he might have a slightly better backhand than Federer even though everyone knows it because Fed might have the odd occasion where his backhand is on fire; to admit this Novak knows Murray will never have the edge over him mentally.)
It's all good Murray upping his game and giving Novak a better match but one thing is for sure, Novak will respond with even more determination and I don't think Murray has the ability to keep upping the stakes like that.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong but I don't think Murray will ever beat Novak in a slam again, his only chance is if someone else knocks Novak out which could happen because Novak has tougher match ups than Murray on the ATP like Stan? fit Federer? fit Nadal? and some of the younger guys who have no mental baggage against him.
I actually quite like Murrays character especially off the court and he seems to engage with the audience via his outbursts which is a better watch than Federer etc
It's certainly not off the mark to criticise Murray for not making the most of his final opportunities. Aus open 2 years ago where he said Novak getting an apparent injury and then swiftly recovering put him off. As a guy who beat the defending champion in the SF of RG quite easily I think many would have expected him to give Djokovic a better game. Same in Aus this year, getting blown off the court in straight sets in the final.
When it's the final he should be battling instead of wilting but he's not. The only time he did battle and take it to 5 sets he wins it! I think everyone recalls his bathroom break at the end of the 4th and telling himself not to let this one get away, he identified that he needed to fight harder. Why not do it all the time?
Novak had the same issue of not having the right mental approach in the final of slams hence why he brought in Boris which seems to have paid dividends.
Anyway if Murray has the same approach I hope he keeps losing, Novak has the mentality I'd like my kids to approach every aspect of life with not just sport and he deserves to win everything until someone outplays and/or outlasts him.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I don't think anyone is doing that...It's certainly not off the mark to criticise Murray for not making the most of his final opportunities. Aus open 2 years ago where he said Novak getting an apparent injury and then swiftly recovering put him off. As a guy who beat the defending champion in the SF of RG quite easily I think many would have expected him to give Djokovic a better game. Same in Aus this year, getting blown off the court in straight sets in the final.
When it's the final he should be battling instead of wilting but he's not. The only time he did battle and take it to 5 sets he wins it! I think everyone recalls his bathroom break at the end of the 4th and telling himself not to let this one get away, he identified that he needed to fight harder. Why not do it all the time?
Novak had the same issue of not having the right mental approach in the final of slams hence why he brought in Boris which seems to have paid dividends.
Anyway if Murray has the same approach I hope he keeps losing, Novak has the mentality I'd like my kids to approach every aspect of life with not just sport and he deserves to win everything until someone outplays and/or outlasts him.
Edited by Babw on Wednesday 8th June 14:57
Babw said:
When it's the final he should be battling instead of wilting but he's not. The only time he did battle and take it to 5 sets he wins it! I think everyone recalls his bathroom break at the end of the 4th and telling himself not to let this one get away, he identified that he needed to fight harder. Why not do it all the time?
Novak had the same issue of not having the right mental approach in the final of slams hence why he brought in Boris which seems to have paid dividends.
Anyway if Murray has the same approach I hope he keeps losing, Novak has the mentality I'd like my kids to approach every aspect of life with not just sport and he deserves to win everything until someone outplays and/or outlasts him.
The above. Nothing to do with his of court character, I expect he is totally different. His on court and PR character makes him a challenge to support. Novak is the complete package, and as such he'll continue to dominate.Novak had the same issue of not having the right mental approach in the final of slams hence why he brought in Boris which seems to have paid dividends.
Anyway if Murray has the same approach I hope he keeps losing, Novak has the mentality I'd like my kids to approach every aspect of life with not just sport and he deserves to win everything until someone outplays and/or outlasts him.
Edited by Babw on Wednesday 8th June 14:57
Intentional would have been a 4-year ban, which is what the ITF actually asked for.
2-Year ban is the maximum for unintentional use. She got this as she was a walking pharmy, basically popping any legal meds possible to get a sporting advantage. I suspect that the ban is so high to reflect that what she was doing was not really in the spirit of the regulations, despite not actually breaking them.
It will be reduced on appeal, whilst putting the fear of God in to all the others doing the same thing.
2-Year ban is the maximum for unintentional use. She got this as she was a walking pharmy, basically popping any legal meds possible to get a sporting advantage. I suspect that the ban is so high to reflect that what she was doing was not really in the spirit of the regulations, despite not actually breaking them.
It will be reduced on appeal, whilst putting the fear of God in to all the others doing the same thing.
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