RWC 2015

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Discussion

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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TheGreatSoprendo said:
IIRC they're precisely what led to the group of death in the first place. In the 2011 WC, we lost to France in the semis (in the infamous Warburton red card game), then lost to Oz in the meaningless 3rd/4th place play off and those defeats combined with the fact that RWC games count double dropped us to an artificially low position just in time for the draw for this RWC.
I think that dumped us to 8th... Lower than some teams who had left at pool stage...

hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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vetrof said:
It was losing all 4 Autumn internationals to Aus, NZ, Samoa and Argentina in Nov 2012 that sealed Wales' slide down the rankings. The last loss was on 1st Dec, the RWC draw was 3rd Dec.
yes

Some say it was all part of the WRU masterplan to see England booted out at the group stage... scratchchin

vetrof

2,466 posts

172 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
01/11/2012 Wales 6th
03/12/2012 9th



Gatland in disguise 1/11/12


irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
TheGreatSoprendo said:
London424 said:
What's the obsession with the rankings? Who cares, they are pretty meaningless, same as the football ones.
IIRC they're precisely what led to the group of death in the first place. In the 2011 WC, we lost to France in the semis (in the infamous Warburton red card game), then lost to Oz in the meaningless 3rd/4th place play off and those defeats combined with the fact that RWC games count double dropped us to an artificially low position just in time for the draw for this RWC.
the problem is that even if the rankings had been done 6 month ago we could have had Scotland rather than Wales/Oz... now yes I'd rather have the Scots than the Taffs (we may at least beat them) but it still would be a hard pool. It's the Argies fault for getting good!! lol

Davey S2

13,075 posts

253 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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I'm surprised that England are out but not as shocked as the majority of their supporters are.

There is an unrealistic level of expectation on England which needs to be addressed. They are not up there with New Zealand. They are not significantly better than Wales, Ireland or France.

Since they won the World Cup in 2003 they have won the 6 Nations once. They haven't won any Grand Slams in that time either. Given that performance over that length of time why would they be seen as serious contenders now?

I can fully understand the frustrations. England has more registered players than all of the other 6 nations countries AND NZ, SA, AUS and ARG combined. They have more funding than NZ, AUs & SA combined.

They can start by getting shot of people like Rob Andrew.








Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
vetrof said:
01/11/2012 Wales 6th
03/12/2012 9th



Gatland in disguise 1/11/12

Does anyone have the top 12 positions as of 1/11/2012 and we can see who would have been in Wales's place / how the groups could have been

vetrof

2,466 posts

172 months

Derek Smith

45,512 posts

247 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Welshbeef said:
Derek Smith said:
It has always been a problem for Wales, this lack of strength in depth. It has an effect in the 6N so bring in the RWC with big sides to face and injuries will take their toll. Can't see any way around it. Playing players out of position is just a symptom of the problem.
England too now seem bereft of talent in depth. ...
We've got the talent and we've got it in depth. There are countries that would sell their nationality for some of our players who can't even get a slot on the bench. Blame for the failure of the side lies elsewhere.

One reason put forward by a friend, although it is not one I support fully, although I see the argument, was that the choice of players is a problem for England. There is little consistency. Mix and match is no way to run a team. The argument over Cipriani is a case in point. If, as seems the case, there is competition for one spot, all being much of a muchness, then make that choice by toss of a coin but then stick with it. If a player goes off the boil for a period, then OK, deselect him, but going back over the last three matches seems so silly. It is as if the belief is that the team is made up of players on top form. I've yet to see any team like that. Even the great Irish team of - my god! has it been that long - that England beat in the 6N by standing in the wrong place had variable players. But there was consistency.

One of the best sides that lasted over a long period I've seen. You never had to look at the programme to work out their names though. Sometimes a player would have a bit of a mare of a match, but be playing the next international.

Rugby, its strength for me, is that it is a team game. The RFU seem happy to continue to have the same blokes at the top all the time, and that despite their performance. Perhaps they should follow their own example with the team.


Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
vetrof said:
Looking at that and then the rankings on selection date It identifies two key moves
1. England fk up and drop from a tier 1 team to tier two
2. Wales fk up and drop from tier 2 to tier 3
3. Samoa beat Wales away moving them up to 8th from 10th



So if we correct and had the draw on the 1st Nov2012 and had the mapping of positions it would have looked like this for the first 3 sides in each group.

Pool A
SA
France
Scotland

So it would take something special for the first 2 not to go through

Pool B
Oz
Ireland
Tonga

Again nothing to suspect the top two will go through

Pool C
NZ
Pumas
Italy

Ditto

Pool D
Eng
Wales
Samoa

Ditto.




And for fun if the draw was today's rankings

Pool A
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

Pool B
Oz
Puma
Tonga

Pool C
NZ
England
Japan

Pool D
SA
France
Fiji.

I think again on this snapshot it would be very unlikely the top two of all groups will progress.



So England went out this time because Wales screwed up previously so did England and then even with all the bad luck on injuries Wales managed to pull out the victories to progress.

Leins

9,416 posts

147 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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epom said:
Well we (Ireland) are still going anyhow. Slowly but surely.
Yesterday was all part of the masterplan, just don't tell the French wink

In all seriousness, I believe having Kearney back at 15, and a dedicated centre to replace Earls will make a huge difference. And I'm sure Schmidt has a few new tricks up his sleeve



As an aside, Nigel Owens made me laugh when telling off Hogg on Saturday (at Newcastle's football ground): "Dive like that again, then come back here in two weeks and play, not today" Reminded me of his "This isn't football" rant from a few years ago in Italy

RichB

51,430 posts

283 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Derek Smith said:
...<clip> Rugby, its strength for me, is that it is a team game. The RFU seem happy to continue to have the same blokes at the top all the time, and that despite their performance. Perhaps they should follow their own example with the team.
Indeed, being much more of a soccer chap I remember the words of Alf Ramsey who said of his team selection in the run up to '66, that he had a method of play in mind and would select the players to fit that method and to form one cohesive team. Not necessarily the best English player who wore that particular numbered shirt. Although I can't be specific I believe he was referring to Jackie Charlton and Nobby Stiles. jack was the perfect foil to Bobby Moore and Nobby was his mid-field destroyer who would kick lumps out of people in contrast to the more elegant football of Peters, Charlton (Bobby) and co.

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Welshbeef said:
Tam_Mullen said:
Not using a quote cause I'm on the st mobile site but,

Tonker you can't spout the 'bigoted Scotland fan and ABE' quote after two seperate posters have also said they support anyone but us.

Really there are extreme anti-supporters against every country within every country, as has been pointed out England aren't exactly popular in the eyes of the Welsh, Irish and us Scots (blame the media for that!) or even the French.
Utter rubbish.

For the Welsh it is part of the fun and gamesmanship.
The amount of England v Wales I've been to nothing has ever been more than friendly banter. That is all its given and that goes both ways.
Well said that man.

Apologies, Tam Mullen, if you're one of the majority of normal, decent Scots, but I'm afraid the minority of really unpleasant people amongst your compatriots when it comes to the vitriol against the English is just too big to ignore.

Whenever England take to the pitch, there will always be a significant sensation of "anyone but England" from all of the other original Five Nations fans, but we take it as banter, and to be honest, we'd probably be more upset if it stopped, as that would indicate that English rugby really had dropped to such a point that we were being pitied!

So, if we receive those sorts of comments from every other home nation, ask yourself why it is, if you look back over all the previous pages of this thread, that we're taking it from every other home nation, but only giving it out to any significant extent to the Scots?

I wouldn't personally take my wife to any rugby match, as she wouldn't thank me for the experience, but - as others have also stated - I'd happily take my kids to see England play anyone except Scotland. This is because I know that no matter who else the opposition is, the banter will remain light-hearted, and even when well on the way to falling over, the vast majority will also respect the presence of kids and know when to tone it down. I've seen Scotland play at Twickenham twice, and on both occasions, I witnessed more than enough to know that the same could not be said of travelling Scots.

I can understand you not liking me and other posters singling out the Scots, but you need to look to your countrymen for the reasons, not to us.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Monday 5th October 2015
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Welshbeef said:
London424 said:
Welshbeef said:
IRB rankings due out within the next hour or so.

Where do you think England will slip ? I wonder if they will drop to 8th or worse.
What's the obsession with the rankings? Who cares, they are pretty meaningless, same as the football ones.
Um well that's what brought about the Group of Death.



Let me guess your English? I suppose if you've been 1st once then yea who cares if another team is now the highest they have ever been ranked. To lots of people KPI's mean a lot and indicates your doing the right things. England are not.
Yes I'm English, but I still don't care about rankings. Teams are getting better universally so there are always going to be 'groups of death'.

Winning is all that I'm interested in, if England did ranked 10th I wouldn't be worried.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
Just on the news England RFU coaches being investigated as they spoke to a match official at half time - this is banned for any game.



irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
Welshbeef said:
Just on the news England RFU coaches being investigated as they spoke to a match official at half time - this is banned for any game.
it just gets better and better frown

TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
London424 said:
Winning is all that I'm interested in, if England did ranked 10th I wouldn't be worried.
I don't get your logic. The rankings reflect exactly that - whether you're winning or losing. If England dropped to 10th it would be because they hadn't been winning much (or at all) lately. If they then started winning again, they wouldn't stay at 10th for very long!

dav123a

1,220 posts

158 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
League fan dropping in , how has Sam got on ? The Thought was when he left South's it was just for the World cup and then he would be back.

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
dav123a said:
League fan dropping in , how has Sam got on ? The Thought was when he left South's it was just for the World cup and then he would be back.
So far, he's been the latest in a long and rarely interrupted line of league converts who've failed at Union, so hopefully you're right and he'll go back to the simpler code. If you speak to him, please could you ask him to take the Farrell family with him? smile

irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
dav123a said:
League fan dropping in , how has Sam got on ? The Thought was when he left South's it was just for the World cup and then he would be back.
shall we just say the jury's still out - he hasn't been a roaring success (a la Billy Whizz, Tuqiri, Rodgers etc) but then again he hasn't been a washout (Chev Walker, Joel Tomkins etc). I hope that he does try for 2019 because I do think that with some time behind him (rather than being 'fast tracked') he could have something to offer.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Monday 5th October 2015
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
dav123a said:
League fan dropping in , how has Sam got on ? The Thought was when he left South's it was just for the World cup and then he would be back.
So far, he's been the latest in a long and rarely interrupted line of league converts who've failed at Union, so hopefully you're right and he'll go back to the simpler code. If you speak to him, please could you ask him to take the Farrell family with him? smile
Reminds me of Iestyn Harris Wales - promised the world and the line was always he needs more time to settle in..... He never did. Stupidly WRU spent a fortune on buying him out of a league contract.





Oh well at least the WRU will be debt free within the next 3 years. Totally debt free stadium paid off etc.
Now even more investment st grass roots can commence