Discussion
I had read stuff about having Fazlet as an inside C. Personally I'd say no as (anecdotaly) I'd have him as just too sloooooooooow - mind you I'd say the same about Goode too but that w/could free up a spot for Cips who does have pace. Interestingly he did that same little kick/stutter step that Goode tries - and that's when you see the difference in pace
Hmmmm! f
k!
Good first 5 mins of 2nd half and good last 12mins. The rest is the worst I can remember from England.
Our line out is a massive issue. Without Dylan Hartley (+ world's greatest sport psychologist to help him behave), we will fail.
The first half was dire, from near our 1st team. I am confused.
k!Good first 5 mins of 2nd half and good last 12mins. The rest is the worst I can remember from England.
Our line out is a massive issue. Without Dylan Hartley (+ world's greatest sport psychologist to help him behave), we will fail.
The first half was dire, from near our 1st team. I am confused.
I don't remember Tom Youngs and the England line out being so massively st before!
Cips isn't the issue or point. England aren't going ANYWHERE no matter who they put in the back line till they sort the Pack out and more specifically the set piece issues. Wtf is the power? Where is the engine room grunt?
t before!Cips isn't the issue or point. England aren't going ANYWHERE no matter who they put in the back line till they sort the Pack out and more specifically the set piece issues. Wtf is the power? Where is the engine room grunt?
That was fking painful watching....we can only hope that the forwards have been getting a proper beasting during the summer and are aiming to peak just in time for the main event....if not we're fked.
Cipriani looked great when he came on last night....agree about 36 and Burrell....did nothing.
Broadly though we just had no "go forward"....I reckon Burgess makes the squad on a st or bust basis. He might just make something happen with his physicality with the technical flaws seen as secondary.
I remember watching the equivalent games in 2003 and seeing England beat France well in both games....so well that I got straight on the BA website and bought some flights that had me in Sydney for the semi's and final.
king painful watching....we can only hope that the forwards have been getting a proper beasting during the summer and are aiming to peak just in time for the main event....if not we're fked. Cipriani looked great when he came on last night....agree about 36 and Burrell....did nothing.
Broadly though we just had no "go forward"....I reckon Burgess makes the squad on a s
t or bust basis. He might just make something happen with his physicality with the technical flaws seen as secondary. I remember watching the equivalent games in 2003 and seeing England beat France well in both games....so well that I got straight on the BA website and bought some flights that had me in Sydney for the semi's and final.
Christ we were poor last night. I hope to chalk the majority of it down to rustiness, I keep hearing about the all the brutal training they've been doing are they knackered? France in comparison looked fired up and hungry.
Forwards were bullied off the park, Marler had as poor of a game I've seen, Launch looked like someone who hasn't played in long time. Sometimes you've got to look to neutralize the other teams strengths and I reckon against monster pack maybe Lawes/Launch in combination are a little too lightweight.
Lack of physicality and willingness to contest the breakdown was a worry, I like Easter but not sure why he's there. We're lacking another option at 6 that is a viable line out target and does more around the pitch. I think Itoje should have been kept in the side for the friendlies, now we're stuck with either Wood who's good in lineout but is too lightweight around the field, or Haskell who seldom turns up. Australia will muller us at the breakdown if we can't improve.
Disappointing that no one inc the captain was able to try and take the game by the scruff of the neck.
We were collectively poor last night, I think the only positive I could see was Nowell and Cips when he came on. Lancaster doesn't want to give Cips a start at 10 as it will probably prove what we all know and it would mean leaving Fazzlet out or trying to shoehorn him in elsewhere (i.e 12, eugh). Ford didn't bathe himself in glory last night but didn't have much to work with being on the back foot.
Burrell and 36 can be binned but I'm not sure they will be. Need to focus on the set piece and breakdown in the two weeks until the Ireland game.
Forwards were bullied off the park, Marler had as poor of a game I've seen, Launch looked like someone who hasn't played in long time. Sometimes you've got to look to neutralize the other teams strengths and I reckon against monster pack maybe Lawes/Launch in combination are a little too lightweight.
Lack of physicality and willingness to contest the breakdown was a worry, I like Easter but not sure why he's there. We're lacking another option at 6 that is a viable line out target and does more around the pitch. I think Itoje should have been kept in the side for the friendlies, now we're stuck with either Wood who's good in lineout but is too lightweight around the field, or Haskell who seldom turns up. Australia will muller us at the breakdown if we can't improve.
Disappointing that no one inc the captain was able to try and take the game by the scruff of the neck.
We were collectively poor last night, I think the only positive I could see was Nowell and Cips when he came on. Lancaster doesn't want to give Cips a start at 10 as it will probably prove what we all know and it would mean leaving Fazzlet out or trying to shoehorn him in elsewhere (i.e 12, eugh). Ford didn't bathe himself in glory last night but didn't have much to work with being on the back foot.
Burrell and 36 can be binned but I'm not sure they will be. Need to focus on the set piece and breakdown in the two weeks until the Ireland game.
I watched both the Scotland and England matches last night and ended up just totally hacked off.
Not by the results though.
I'm talking about the way all the meddling with,and interpretation of, the laws has ruined the game.
Scrums. They have legislated out some of the things that used to be regarded as propping skills, wheeling, boring in/out, getting under your opponent, messing with his bind. All illegal now. Add no need for hookers any longer due to squint feeds going unpunished (might as well play three props) and penalties awarded seemingly at random where even ex-international front row forwards don't understand, and we may as well just adopt RL style 'restarts'.
Line-outs. A lot of the poor throwing is down to the utter chaos of people on both sides dancing around like bloody dervishes before the throw. This along with allowing lifting has reduced what used to be an athletic contest between jumpers to a shambles.
Tackle. Laws 15.5 a/b/c/d are infringed almost every time. Players are turned in the tackle and roll over the ball so it's presented to their side (breaks 15.5a). Play the ball more than once or wait for a team mate before playing it (15.5b/C/D say immediately.
Ruck. Routine handling of the ball by players on the ground 'helping' the ball back, usually right in front of officials. Referees preventing competition for the ball by instructing players to 'leave it'. Routine use by the team in possession of players as blockers by loitering around the fringes way in front of the rear foot.
I'm well aware this could be seen as an out of date old fart moaning that it was better in his day, but all of the points above are bemoaning the loss of what used to be regarded as skills of the game by constant fiddling with the laws when in many cases they didn't need any modification at all.
Not by the results though.
I'm talking about the way all the meddling with,and interpretation of, the laws has ruined the game.
Scrums. They have legislated out some of the things that used to be regarded as propping skills, wheeling, boring in/out, getting under your opponent, messing with his bind. All illegal now. Add no need for hookers any longer due to squint feeds going unpunished (might as well play three props) and penalties awarded seemingly at random where even ex-international front row forwards don't understand, and we may as well just adopt RL style 'restarts'.
Line-outs. A lot of the poor throwing is down to the utter chaos of people on both sides dancing around like bloody dervishes before the throw. This along with allowing lifting has reduced what used to be an athletic contest between jumpers to a shambles.
Tackle. Laws 15.5 a/b/c/d are infringed almost every time. Players are turned in the tackle and roll over the ball so it's presented to their side (breaks 15.5a). Play the ball more than once or wait for a team mate before playing it (15.5b/C/D say immediately.
Ruck. Routine handling of the ball by players on the ground 'helping' the ball back, usually right in front of officials. Referees preventing competition for the ball by instructing players to 'leave it'. Routine use by the team in possession of players as blockers by loitering around the fringes way in front of the rear foot.
I'm well aware this could be seen as an out of date old fart moaning that it was better in his day, but all of the points above are bemoaning the loss of what used to be regarded as skills of the game by constant fiddling with the laws when in many cases they didn't need any modification at all.
Edited by DocJock on Sunday 23 August 09:58
For me, the greatest frustration is that the refs involve themselves too much but don't intervene where there are blatant offences.
Scrum put-ins are the obvious one, but loads more at the tackle/breakdown.
Referre those areas and let the front fives sort themselves out (because only they understand it anyway
)
Scrum put-ins are the obvious one, but loads more at the tackle/breakdown.
Referre those areas and let the front fives sort themselves out (because only they understand it anyway
)DJRC said:
I don't remember Tom Youngs and the England line out being so massively st before!
Cips isn't the issue or point. England aren't going ANYWHERE no matter who they put in the back line till they sort the Pack out and more specifically the set piece issues. Wtf is the power? Where is the engine room grunt?
It's been like this for as long as I can remember and once you see it you can't believe you've missed it for so long. Hartley comes off on 65 mins and our set piece goes to st before!Cips isn't the issue or point. England aren't going ANYWHERE no matter who they put in the back line till they sort the Pack out and more specifically the set piece issues. Wtf is the power? Where is the engine room grunt?
t. On another note there should be some sort of punishment dished out for pitches (not weather related) that cut up like yesterday in the scrum. Was pathetic.
Ford had a shocker, hopefully that's the bad one out of his system.
Cheib said:
I remember watching the equivalent games in 2003 and seeing England beat France well in both games....so well that I got straight on the BA website and bought some flights that had me in Sydney for the semi's and final.
Gawd, 2003 again, I wonder when people will let go! 
Actually, France beat England in their first of two warm up games against France in Marseille. Then again england thrashed them on the second at Twickenham when they had pretty much the full team 40- something.
Also, France beat England twice in 2007 warm ups, England got to the Final!
So, I still have some hope as long as we don't meet france in the Quarters like in 2011. But i'.m mostly worried about the scrum. It was pretty good for a long while, now it seems broken.
Edited by prand on Sunday 23 August 23:38
You don’t become a poor team overnight which as per my previous comment I hope to chalk most of it down to rustiness. Unfortunately though a RWC is not like a domestic season where you can afford to be off the pace and play into form. Apart from the lineout it’s hopefully an easy fix, we gave away a lot of penalties on Saturday which put the French pretty much out of site, Dan Cole was particularly bad again hopefully rustiness. I’m not sure if the likes of Launch and Morgan have enough time to get back up to international level but I hope so.
Despite the poor showing we did show when we got good enough ball we can score tries still.
Hopefully a reality check all around.
Despite the poor showing we did show when we got good enough ball we can score tries still.
Hopefully a reality check all around.
DocJock said:
Line-outs. A lot of the poor throwing is down to the utter chaos of people on both sides dancing around like bloody dervishes before the throw. This along with allowing lifting has reduced what used to be an athletic contest between jumpers to a shambles.
Good points and I agree with most of them, but this one in particular is a real issue I think.When you watch the amount of dancing backwards and forwards that goes on in the line out, there are so many variables in terms of making sure the nominated receiver is in the right place, right height at the right time, it just seems like too much for a hooker of all people (
) to deal with an be able to hit the target. Add in to this the opposition meddling around (closing gapes / nudging the jumper etc,) it's no wonder there are so many incomplete or scrappy line outs.It's easy to rip into the hooker for a "lousy" throw, but most of the variables at work here are completely out of their control. I know it's their job etc, but the whole process is increasingly becoming one that looks like over complicated mayhem, rather than a controlled execution of a set piece!
prand said:
Cheib said:
I remember watching the equivalent games in 2003 and seeing England beat France well in both games....so well that I got straight on the BA website and bought some flights that had me in Sydney for the semi's and final.
Gawd, 2003 again, I wonder when people will let go! Actually, France beat England in their first of two warm up games against France in Marseille. Then again england thrashed them on the second at Twickenham when they had pretty much the full team 40- something.
Also, France beat England twice in 2007 warm ups, England got to the Final!
So, I still have some hope as long as we don't meet france in the Quarters like in 2011. But i'.m mostly worried about the scrum. It was pretty good for a long while, now it seems broken.
Edited by prand on Sunday 23 August 23:38
I started to write a post around who might feature in the Ireland game/make it in to the final squad then got side tracked. However it has been announced the final 31 will be announced this Thursday so all my theories were shot to st. Who I reckon Lancaster will pick rather than who I'd like to see.
Props, think Corbs will be dropped, was between him and Brookes but can't afford take a risk on any injured/out of form players.
Hookers: LCD to drop out, if the squad hadn't been announced I reckon he'd have deserved a half against Ireland.
Lock(s) Parling was poor in the first of the French games but is experienced and a great lineout operator and may help Youngs being club mates? I think he's more in the athletic get around the park type like Lawes and Launch IMO so I reckon we need Attwood's grunt as at least a bench option. a couple of seasons ago Lawes had the tendency to blow hot and cold. I reckon Kruis or Attwood will miss out.
Backrow: Easter and Clarke out. Wood I reckon is still Lancaster preferred choice.
Halfbacks: Cips to miss out done everything he could but Lancaster seems to just want to placate the press etc and never had any intention of playing him at the WC.
Centers: Surely 36 can't be in the final squad therefore I think Slade could be the one to come in-outside chance Cips might take that utility position? I'd also drop Burrell for Burgess and can see it happening, I'm just not sure Lancaster has the conviction to take both . I'm pretty annoyed that in Barritt another injured player with unproven form has been carried. JJ obviously in.
Wings/Full backs. Goode and Brown (no Cips here either) Nowell, Watson and May for the wings.
t. Who I reckon Lancaster will pick rather than who I'd like to see.Props, think Corbs will be dropped, was between him and Brookes but can't afford take a risk on any injured/out of form players.
Hookers: LCD to drop out, if the squad hadn't been announced I reckon he'd have deserved a half against Ireland.
Lock(s) Parling was poor in the first of the French games but is experienced and a great lineout operator and may help Youngs being club mates? I think he's more in the athletic get around the park type like Lawes and Launch IMO so I reckon we need Attwood's grunt as at least a bench option. a couple of seasons ago Lawes had the tendency to blow hot and cold. I reckon Kruis or Attwood will miss out.
Backrow: Easter and Clarke out. Wood I reckon is still Lancaster preferred choice.
Halfbacks: Cips to miss out done everything he could but Lancaster seems to just want to placate the press etc and never had any intention of playing him at the WC.
Centers: Surely 36 can't be in the final squad therefore I think Slade could be the one to come in-outside chance Cips might take that utility position? I'd also drop Burrell for Burgess and can see it happening, I'm just not sure Lancaster has the conviction to take both . I'm pretty annoyed that in Barritt another injured player with unproven form has been carried. JJ obviously in.
Wings/Full backs. Goode and Brown (no Cips here either) Nowell, Watson and May for the wings.
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