Discussion
prand said:
London424 said:
It's amazing how good some players get talked up having done nothing of note for a long time at the highest levels of the game...and unlikely to be anything more than a sub anyway.
Like Brad Barritt? 
Announcement due now at 1.45, so we'll soon know.Cips hasn't started a game for England since 2008. I'm not saying he isn't a talent, but he wasn't going to be starting and we've seen plenty of players look good at club level and not able to make the step up to international level.
London424 said:
prand said:
London424 said:
It's amazing how good some players get talked up having done nothing of note for a long time at the highest levels of the game...and unlikely to be anything more than a sub anyway.
Like Brad Barritt? Announcement due now at 1.45, so we'll soon know.Cips hasn't started a game for England since 2008. I'm not saying he isn't a talent, but he wasn't going to be starting and we've seen plenty of players look good at club level and not able to make the step up to international level.
You can coach a naturally talented player into performing like a defensive rock with the right attitude. You cannot coach natural talent into a defensive rock of a player; regardless of a +ve attitude! (Edit eg cause I am a dick - sorry)
Cips looked amazing and fabulous in an England shirt and I really must be misunderstanding you if you are suggesting he is a new incarnation of Charlie Hodgson???
Edited by Slaav on Friday 28th August 01:31
Slaav said:
London424 said:
prand said:
London424 said:
It's amazing how good some players get talked up having done nothing of note for a long time at the highest levels of the game...and unlikely to be anything more than a sub anyway.
Like Brad Barritt? Announcement due now at 1.45, so we'll soon know.Cips hasn't started a game for England since 2008. I'm not saying he isn't a talent, but he wasn't going to be starting and we've seen plenty of players look good at club level and not able to make the step up to international level.
You can coach natural talent into a defensive rock with the right attitude. You cannot coach natural talent into a defensive rock of a player; regardless of a +ve attitude!
Cips looked amazing and fabulous in an England shirt and I really must be misunderstanding you if you are suggesting he is a new incarnation of Charlie Hodgson???
I agree he has looked good for Sale, but is it because he's in a mid-table side?
You can win championships with a rock solid defense, you cannot win anything with lots of natural talent and the inability to front up when the going gets rough.
When did Cips look amazing and fabulous in an England shirt?
All I'm trying to say here is that I don't understand all this faux outrage at not picking a guy who wouldn't even be sniffing the pitch until 65 mins+ are played and even then it's unlikely it would be to come on in his favoured position.
Slaav said:
I think most 'experts' agree that Cipriani is one of the most obvious stand out natural talents to ever pull on a rugby shirt for England. There can (IMO) be no doubt that he is good enough. It appears that Sale and Diamond have found a way of harnessing that natural flair and ability.
You can coach natural talent into a defensive rock with the right attitude. You cannot coach natural talent into a defensive rock of a player; regardless of a +ve attitude!
Cips looked amazing and fabulous in an England shirt and I really must be misunderstanding you if you are suggesting he is a new incarnation of Charlie Hodgson???
A bit confused by your post Slaav, I think you are praising Cipriani, I assume he is the talent, and Barritt the rock? And I also assume a reincarnation of Charlie Hodgson is not a good thing (as I found him to be pretty uninspiring and an awful choker of kicks, particularly for England).You can coach natural talent into a defensive rock with the right attitude. You cannot coach natural talent into a defensive rock of a player; regardless of a +ve attitude!
Cips looked amazing and fabulous in an England shirt and I really must be misunderstanding you if you are suggesting he is a new incarnation of Charlie Hodgson???
Big shame for Cipriani, though he may well make an appearance if someone gets (or stays) injured.
EDIT - after seeing the post above, I agree, it will only be a very short appearance too.
Edited by prand on Thursday 27th August 15:55
Most of the arguments around selection are interestingly around second choice selections.If Cips were in he wouldn't have started a game unless of course he got some actual game time in the pools to shine.
Press and fans very jittery on the back of that France game, a couple of years out I thought this was a couple of years early for this crop of players. Still think the same, I hope home advantage carries us further than the sum of our parts.
ETA
Now we know the 31 who does Lancaster play against Ireland? His preferred 23 for Fiji? Fiji are no joke so we'll go full strength. It could be the the last game against Uruguay comes down to points difference in our group if we don't have a 100% record at that stage.
Press and fans very jittery on the back of that France game, a couple of years out I thought this was a couple of years early for this crop of players. Still think the same, I hope home advantage carries us further than the sum of our parts.
ETA
Now we know the 31 who does Lancaster play against Ireland? His preferred 23 for Fiji? Fiji are no joke so we'll go full strength. It could be the the last game against Uruguay comes down to points difference in our group if we don't have a 100% record at that stage.
Edited by a311 on Thursday 27th August 16:16
It was surely fairly obvious that Cipriani wouldn't be in the squad from his lack of game time in the warm-ups? Goode's performance vs France was the final nail in his coffin.
Pleased that Burgess and Slade were included.
I think Burgess gives you everything that Burrell does, only better. He also brings that winning mentality which can rub off on those around him.
Slade is just class. When you play against guys like him they think so quickly that seem to have a little exclusion zone around them and you never get to them in time.
Pleased too for Ben Morgan. I think he'll have a big tournament.
Pleased that Burgess and Slade were included.
I think Burgess gives you everything that Burrell does, only better. He also brings that winning mentality which can rub off on those around him.
Slade is just class. When you play against guys like him they think so quickly that seem to have a little exclusion zone around them and you never get to them in time.
Pleased too for Ben Morgan. I think he'll have a big tournament.
London424 said:
When did Cips look amazing and fabulous in an England shirt?
IIRC his first (or 2nd) cap when his contribution destroyed Ireland. His cameo against the AB last year, his 'B' team performance against one of the Kiwi sides on the same tour.... That being said he's also had a few howlers as well a couple of kick charge-downs which lead to England losing (then again a lot of people have kicks charged down), IIRC an intercepted pass which lead to a try (and again that's happened to a lot of players). The thing is since he's tightened up his natural flamboyance he has looked a total class act.You could argue that fazlet while he has got a slightly better kicking % than cips and better defence is nowhere near as good a ball distributor or as flexible a player in addition to which he has a level of petulance which would sometimes make Hartley blush.
All that being said it is what it is and while I feel there are a few VERY unlucky players in England (Cips and Easter being high on that list!) and some very lucky players (stand up son of the coach and May)
On the whole I like the team selected but would have taken Cips over Barritt. OF can play either 10 or centre, Burgess does the same job as Barritt and Cips gives you a another 10 or 15 if needed and is IMHO a better impact sub at either 10 or 15 that OF or Goode respectively.
Lets face it, unless there's a vast improvement England ain't going far in this competition and will need to make the best of home advantage in any circumstance.
Lets face it, unless there's a vast improvement England ain't going far in this competition and will need to make the best of home advantage in any circumstance.
prand said:
Slaav said:
I think most 'experts' agree that Cipriani is one of the most obvious stand out natural talents to ever pull on a rugby shirt for England. There can (IMO) be no doubt that he is good enough. It appears that Sale and Diamond have found a way of harnessing that natural flair and ability.
You can coach natural talent into a defensive rock with the right attitude. You cannot coach natural talent into a defensive rock of a player; regardless of a +ve attitude!
Cips looked amazing and fabulous in an England shirt and I really must be misunderstanding you if you are suggesting he is a new incarnation of Charlie Hodgson???
A bit confused by your post Slaav, I think you are praising Cipriani, I assume he is the talent, and Barritt the rock? And I also assume a reincarnation of Charlie Hodgson is not a good thing (as I found him to be pretty uninspiring and an awful choker of kicks, particularly for England).You can coach natural talent into a defensive rock with the right attitude. You cannot coach natural talent into a defensive rock of a player; regardless of a +ve attitude!
Cips looked amazing and fabulous in an England shirt and I really must be misunderstanding you if you are suggesting he is a new incarnation of Charlie Hodgson???
Big shame for Cipriani, though he may well make an appearance if someone gets (or stays) injured.
EDIT - after seeing the post above, I agree, it will only be a very short appearance too.
Edited by prand on Thursday 27th August 15:55
a311 said:
I'm only annoyed Barritt has been given a free ride into selection and is still the preferred starter.
+1I hate doing the +1 thing but Barritt.....seriously!
The rest though I think is about right. I think Manu would probably have replaced Burgess if he hadn't of been such a muppet. I don't think it's a squad to win the world cup and we may even struggle to get out of the group! However, that aside neither was the 2007 squad and look where they got...We have some great games we just have to make sure we pull them out when we need them. Focus is one thing we lack that teams like NZ and Australia have. We think we are better than we are and coast too much. I think the same can be said of Wales recently. A fantastic team, better than England I believe, but let down by too many players thinking they don't have to work hard. If you look at NZ you only need one poor game and you are out.
Road2Ruin said:
+1
I hate doing the +1 thing but Barritt.....seriously!
The rest though I think is about right. I think Manu would probably have replaced Burgess if he hadn't of been such a muppet. I don't think it's a squad to win the world cup and we may even struggle to get out of the group! However, that aside neither was the 2007 squad and look where they got...We have some great games we just have to make sure we pull them out when we need them. Focus is one thing we lack that teams like NZ and Australia have. We think we are better than we are and coast too much. I think the same can be said of Wales recently. A fantastic team, better than England I believe, but let down by too many players thinking they don't have to work hard. If you look at NZ you only need one poor game and you are out.
It's not even that. It's a simple fact that the England team are a comparatively unintelligent bunch of rugby players. They can't seem to think their way through a game, they can't adapt particularly quickly to adaptive opponents, and they completely run out of ideas when they're forward pack is neutralised. Plus the fact that team discipline appears to be a real problem. A total contrast to the 2003 team.I hate doing the +1 thing but Barritt.....seriously!
The rest though I think is about right. I think Manu would probably have replaced Burgess if he hadn't of been such a muppet. I don't think it's a squad to win the world cup and we may even struggle to get out of the group! However, that aside neither was the 2007 squad and look where they got...We have some great games we just have to make sure we pull them out when we need them. Focus is one thing we lack that teams like NZ and Australia have. We think we are better than we are and coast too much. I think the same can be said of Wales recently. A fantastic team, better than England I believe, but let down by too many players thinking they don't have to work hard. If you look at NZ you only need one poor game and you are out.
All in all, the debate over Cips or Barritt is effectively a moot point. England are, collectively, too thick to win major Championships.
Joey Ramone said:
It's not even that. It's a simple fact that the England team are a comparatively unintelligent bunch of rugby players. They can't seem to think their way through a game, they can't adapt particularly quickly to adaptive opponents, and they completely run out of ideas when they're forward pack is neutralised. Plus the fact that team discipline appears to be a real problem. A total contrast to the 2003 team.
All in all, the debate over Cips or Barritt is effectively a moot point. England are, collectively, too thick to win major Championships.
this - oh hell yes this!!! Cips may have previously demonstrated the same sort of 'intelligence' as Henson or many footballists off the field - however on the field the guy can think brilliantly. Fazlet seemingly hasn't got a brain-cell to call his own... to be fair GF can think for himself to a point but can be as flakey as Cips was a few years back (difference being we don't have Jonno to humiliate mentally destroy him). Danny Care is the quickest thinking of the 9's (and then some)... the real problem comes when you start looking at the backs. If JJ was injured BB doesn't seem to be the sort to think on his feet (take into contact seems to be his sole plan). May... well what can you say about him? He may be ripping it up in training but defensively he seems to be as weak as Wade but doesn't have the skills. Watson has potential, Mr Angry (as much as I like him) seems to be another poor thinker, albeit recklessly brave (give me a fit Foden instead), even Goode seems a little robotic (though to be fair against France he did seem to see opportunities). Burgess and Slade is too early to sayAll in all, the debate over Cips or Barritt is effectively a moot point. England are, collectively, too thick to win major Championships.
Road2Ruin said:
+1
I hate doing the +1 thing but Barritt.....seriously!
The rest though I think is about right. I think Manu would probably have replaced Burgess if he hadn't of been such a muppet. I don't think it's a squad to win the world cup and we may even struggle to get out of the group! However, that aside neither was the 2007 squad and look where they got...We have some great games we just have to make sure we pull them out when we need them. Focus is one thing we lack that teams like NZ and Australia have. We think we are better than we are and coast too much. I think the same can be said of Wales recently. A fantastic team, better than England I believe, but let down by too many players thinking they don't have to work hard. If you look at NZ you only need one poor game and you are out.
I think we've the best squad we've had since 2003, 2007 if memory serves we were pasted by the saffers in the group before getting our act together taking the Australian scrum apart, and beating France in the semis. 2011 well we all know what happened then. Australia and Wales are both more than capable of beating us in the pool but we're also capable of topping the group unbeaten, as I've said previously I'm hoping home advantage carries us through further than the sum of our parts. We played poorly againt France in a warm up game, a good showing against Ireland at home and we're back on track.I hate doing the +1 thing but Barritt.....seriously!
The rest though I think is about right. I think Manu would probably have replaced Burgess if he hadn't of been such a muppet. I don't think it's a squad to win the world cup and we may even struggle to get out of the group! However, that aside neither was the 2007 squad and look where they got...We have some great games we just have to make sure we pull them out when we need them. Focus is one thing we lack that teams like NZ and Australia have. We think we are better than we are and coast too much. I think the same can be said of Wales recently. A fantastic team, better than England I believe, but let down by too many players thinking they don't have to work hard. If you look at NZ you only need one poor game and you are out.
I'm a little more confident as IMO we have a side that can score tries, we did OK in the 6N despite a few key injuries.
Joey Ramone said:
England are, collectively, too thick to win major Championships.
Generally I agree. We went out against France with what looked like a set game plan which turned to a shower of s
t and no one was able to grab the players by the scurf of the neck and sort things out, but it happens. Australia I've always thought of the 'thinking' team since I've been watching rugby, however in recent years you can usually give them such a stuffing upfront no one can think their way out of that.Their scrum looked decent against NZ in Aus but during the return leg in debate-ably more English like conditions they struggled.
Having said all that re: with the England side I think it's at least as much to do with the lack of experience as lack of brain cells. I'm not 100% sold on Robshaw's captaincy, as a player to look to when you're under the cosh I think he can go missing. Say what you want but having Burgess on the pitch just seemed to lift the whole team.
DJRC said:
I'm glad Kruis is in. When I've seen him play for England in the real matches earlier this year he always turned up. I think he will impress.
He's a bit of a Lawes/Launch Hybrid IMO gets around the park, good in the lineout and a bit mroe of a carrier. Had a good domestic season, I 've have had Attwood in for his grunt but not sure at who's expense, maybe Parling but in a side short of caps I'm not so sure.
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