RWC 2015

Author
Discussion

Eddw86

742 posts

186 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Whilst I agree Wigglesworth may not be a potential game changer ala care with his pop up tries, given the (very interesting) chat above about 9s getting the ball out fast & flat then he's probably exactly what England need - he's usually the only scrum half who can ping the ball out flat without crabbing 2/3 steps to the side & almost floats under the radar which can be a good thing when you want to surprise the opposition bully boys.

Good kicking game too. Rate him highly.

Joey Ramone

2,150 posts

124 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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DJRC said:
But A3 the point being that until the last 2 matches England's Pack had been fking ruthless and better than anyone else, inc. last autumn against the southern boys. Lancaster was very much building a dominant traditional English team up front and a sturdy midfield around which pace could hit holes. In fact one of the themes from the AI's to the 6N this yr was Lancaster arguably playing less expansively and using England forward Pack to dictate and then go wide.
Although we mashed the Aussies, they appear to have found some decent props. England bettered the AB's for 40 mins and that was about it. The second AB try illustrated that their pack eventually had the qualitative edge that day. The Saffers bullied us at certain points. It's how they won. And Ireland in the 6N smashed our pack to bits, particularly at the breakdown.

If you can't beat Ireland away, you can't win the RWC.

But I'll go back to the point I made earlier. No matter how big and powerful the England pack is, they and the team as a whole are not particularly intelligent footballers. That's a massive problem.

Slaav

4,240 posts

209 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Joey Ramone said:
.........

But I'll go back to the point I made earlier. No matter how big and powerful the England pack is, they and the team as a whole are not particularly intelligent footballers. That's a massive problem.
Interesting point and one that is so often overlooked. I'm really not picking on anybody here but one or two players spring yo mind on this point. Haskell? No doubt an massive, fit and possibly awesome physical specimen! But instinctive gifted footballer? Instinctive talented rugby brain? Very good no doubt but how much of that is fitness and physique and how much true rugby nous?

Launchbury on the other hand??? Some may use the above argument against him also but it can be no coincidence that he gets soooo involved? The stats for his tackling are remarkable! His cover tackling is freakishly brilliant. He manages to chase down and snag backs because of his fitness harnessed to rugby brain, positioning, reading the fame etc. doesn't sound the brightest when he speaks but hopefully an England fixture for many years to come.

Another awesome physical specimen was Banahan? Shame 'he is as thick as his dad' - heard in Twickenham car park from somebody who knew his father smile

Lawes is one that could be around for many years also. Instinctively talented rugby player? Very good indeed and would push to be included in most teams but my jury is still out!

Etc etc....

irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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I think that Woodward had it right - "TCUP". Thinking Clearly Under Pressure - to me it's evident that too many of our players don't do this, and those that do seem to be mistrusted by the powers that be. Care does have moments where he is sublime and can really get things going on the front foot (as can the other DC) Youngs/Wiggy less so. BB/Brown/Nowell seem to be a little 'by the book' and then lost if the book is missing the page, May runs around like a headless chicken, Goode I will (reluctantly) grant you does seem to want to think about what to do but is sloooow and so it goes on.

I've said it before - if David Campese had been English I doubt he'd have been granted more than a handful of caps (if that!) and things don't seem to have changed too much

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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If England lose on Sat and lose Badly how worried will they be about the Wales game?

a311

5,789 posts

176 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Joey Ramone said:
DJRC said:
But A3 the point being that until the last 2 matches England's Pack had been fking ruthless and better than anyone else, inc. last autumn against the southern boys. Lancaster was very much building a dominant traditional English team up front and a sturdy midfield around which pace could hit holes. In fact one of the themes from the AI's to the 6N this yr was Lancaster arguably playing less expansively and using England forward Pack to dictate and then go wide.
Although we mashed the Aussies, they appear to have found some decent props. England bettered the AB's for 40 mins and that was about it. The second AB try illustrated that their pack eventually had the qualitative edge that day. The Saffers bullied us at certain points. It's how they won. And Ireland in the 6N smashed our pack to bits, particularly at the breakdown.

If you can't beat Ireland away, you can't win the RWC.

But I'll go back to the point I made earlier. No matter how big and powerful the England pack is, they and the team as a whole are not particularly intelligent footballers. That's a massive problem.
I didn't see the Autumn AI's or the 6N's like that DJRC, won some of the forward battles, obviously quite convincingly against Aus. My memory of the Ireland loss was parity the in scrum and generally beaten at the breakdown, it's the latter that worries me more. In the France game we were very lethargic and generally not committing bodies to the breakdown. There is a possibility that both the Aussies and Wales could play against us with two openside flankers, unless we sort our lineout I can see it happening. We've virtually got the same pack available as the 2014 6N side with the exception of Cole being back, they did pretty well.

The scrum unfortunately has a lot to do on the day with the ref IMO. Wood needs to come good, looks like he's needed for the lineout but seems to have lost what he had on the deck and doesn't offer much carrying.

I reckon Nowell will be preferred to May come the WC, May is a talent but too flakey.

We're all being very knee-jerk after what was effectively one pre season game with close to a first choice 15! wink

a311

5,789 posts

176 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Welshbeef said:
If England lose on Sat and lose Badly how worried will they be about the Wales game?
A loss won't be good, more so if players like Morgan and Launchburry look way off in terms of match fitness/form.

I don't think any England fan in their right minds has every thought that getting out of the group is a forgone conclusion. I hoping home advantage carries us through, but would have to agree with Gatland's comments re: England being the more unsettled side.

I still think Wales have it in them to beat most when at their best, the problem is their best is incredibly reliant on being allowed to play a certain way and having the players to do so, key injuries and depth becomes a real issue for Wales.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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a311 said:
A loss won't be good, more so if players like Morgan and Launchburry look way off in terms of match fitness/form.

I don't think any England fan in their right minds has every thought that getting out of the group is a forgone conclusion. I hoping home advantage carries us through, but would have to agree with Gatland's comments re: England being the more unsettled side.

I still think Wales have it in them to beat most when at their best, the problem is their best is incredibly reliant on being allowed to play a certain way and having the players to do so, key injuries and depth becomes a real issue for Wales.
Id like to see Wales and England go through however frankly cannot see Oz not being 1st or 2nd in the group.


The worry for me is Wales don't demolish Uraguay

a311

5,789 posts

176 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Welshbeef said:
Id like to see Wales and England go through however frankly cannot see Oz not being 1st or 2nd in the group.


The worry for me is Wales don't demolish Uraguay
Should do, Japan put a lot of points on them in the two warm up games. In a tight group it could come down to points difference, and England having Uruguay last is a bonus if the group pans out that way.

Fiji judging on the pacific nations cup are about on par with Samoa at the minute so will be a real test. Usually like the rest of the Pacific teams discipline, set peice and lack of time together is usually their biggest let down. However they're mostly just unpredictable which is not good for any oppo.

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Good call whoever mentioned Care and losing his marbles at times - it's something he should have been able to cut out of his game 2 seasons ago once he went from being young/new to a regular Pro/International.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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a311 said:
Should do, Japan put a lot of points on them in the two warm up games. In a tight group it could come down to points difference, and England having Uruguay last is a bonus if the group pans out that way.

Fiji judging on the pacific nations cup are about on par with Samoa at the minute so will be a real test. Usually like the rest of the Pacific teams discipline, set peice and lack of time together is usually their biggest let down. However they're mostly just unpredictable which is not good for any oppo.
Personally I'd like Fiji first when they are not up to speed to utterly destroy them 3rd game in they will be ready and better.

basherX

2,463 posts

160 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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a311 said:
In a tight group it could come down to points difference, and England having Uruguay last is a bonus if the group pans out that way.
It's this, isn't it? It's quite possible that AUS/ENG/WAL all lose one game and thus it comes down to not fking up against Fiji and who can put the most past Uruguay. There may well be a case for a markedly quicker (yet more lightweight) set of backs (or bench at least) at that point.


TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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basherX said:
It's this, isn't it? It's quite possible that AUS/ENG/WAL all lose one game and thus it comes down to not fking up against Fiji and who can put the most past Uruguay. There may well be a case for a markedly quicker (yet more lightweight) set of backs (or bench at least) at that point.
yes Hence Matthew Morgan in the Welsh squad...

a311

5,789 posts

176 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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basherX said:
It's this, isn't it? It's quite possible that AUS/ENG/WAL all lose one game and thus it comes down to not fking up against Fiji and who can put the most past Uruguay. There may well be a case for a markedly quicker (yet more lightweight) set of backs (or bench at least) at that point.
This scenario is quite plausible. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Wales haven't beat England at Twickenham since 2012 and Australia since 2008. I think Australia are more of an unknown than Wales (doesn't mean they won't beat us) i.e. have they really sorted their scrum out? How will they go in English conditions Vs their own.

Romain Poite is officiating the Eng Vs Aus game, he refereed the final Lions game and generally pings the Australian's for a weak scrum, I'm not saying that refs do/should go into a game with any preconceptions. What I'm saying is this isn't a bad thing for England.

hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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a311 said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Wales haven't beat England at Twickenham since 2012
Given we've only played there once since 2012, I'm not sure I'd place much weight on that stat... hehe

a311 said:
and Australia since 2008.
Correct. However the AIs of late are usually titanic struggles with us coming out the wrong end by a couple of points here and there, certainly no more than a score. Gatland has a bit of psychological advantage in the bank from the Lions this time as well.

All the above said I still think Wales will lose both those games and bow out early.

Slaav

4,240 posts

209 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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hornetrider said:
..... I still think Wales will lose both those games and bow out early.
So not all bad then? smile





Seriously though, I wouldn't be so sure - I think Wales certainly have it in them to qualify - but do the players themselves really believe that???


hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Yeah I think the players will believe it, I guess it comes down to execution on the day.

We play England and Australia at HQ so the RFU have done well to give England the best opportunity to get out of the group.

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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It wasn't a joint bid was it, just an English one I think? So games in Cardiff are spill over aren't they?

Slaav

4,240 posts

209 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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DJRC said:
It wasn't a joint bid was it, just an English one I think? So games in Cardiff are spill over aren't they?
And with hindsight give Wales an extra lifeline.... after all, it is a tricky place to go and play Wales at!

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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The Wales Oz Eng Fiji Uraguay group is going to be great.

I'll assume everyone will beat
Uraguay zero wins 0 points
Fiji I'd say will win two games so that's 6 points
Oz let's say clean sweep 12 points

England & Wales will lose either 1 or 2 games so one of these could on points be tied with Fiji on 6 while the other is 9.

Or Oz lose one game then Oz Eng and Wales all on 9 points - this I would say is the most likely

If there is any draw it's going to be messy.