Rugby Union Autumn Internationals
Discussion
Some interesting comments.
Lancaster's a good coach, a facilitator, but I reckon we need a proper attack coach or give Catt more responsibility. International coaches as a rule can do little about form IMO when they come in I suspect it's more about drilling in the coaches system with the limited time they have with the players. They can however pick players on form.
Will say it again, Farrell is a good if limited player when on form. He was massively short of game time yet was still automatic pick to start. Why? Lack of a back up?-A problem of their own making. Farrell Snr in his ear? Lancaster has a bit of a penchant for playing players out of position.
Agreed Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola it appears are the first choice backrow. I'll submit that another reason our backs are struggling is due to this selection via the lack of quick ball at the breakdown, also due to ponderous play at 9. Vunipola is out of sorts, or worked out a bit? Lack of variety in running lines? In any case too much being put on him as the chief ball carrier/gain line breaker, which is why we need something else at 6, A fit and firing Haskell although Ewers is in bloody good form this season too.
Wigglesworth, Haskell and Twelvetrees in squad for Samoa. The proof will of course be in the Aussie game, Eastmond has apparently had a knock but otherwise would have liked to have seen a similar team but with Haskell at 6, Ford at 10. I don't think Twelvetrees can cut it at this level other than being a utility player?
Returning to Aviva Premiership clubs
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
England squad to face Samoa
Forwards (13)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Backs (10)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Lancaster's a good coach, a facilitator, but I reckon we need a proper attack coach or give Catt more responsibility. International coaches as a rule can do little about form IMO when they come in I suspect it's more about drilling in the coaches system with the limited time they have with the players. They can however pick players on form.
Will say it again, Farrell is a good if limited player when on form. He was massively short of game time yet was still automatic pick to start. Why? Lack of a back up?-A problem of their own making. Farrell Snr in his ear? Lancaster has a bit of a penchant for playing players out of position.
Agreed Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola it appears are the first choice backrow. I'll submit that another reason our backs are struggling is due to this selection via the lack of quick ball at the breakdown, also due to ponderous play at 9. Vunipola is out of sorts, or worked out a bit? Lack of variety in running lines? In any case too much being put on him as the chief ball carrier/gain line breaker, which is why we need something else at 6, A fit and firing Haskell although Ewers is in bloody good form this season too.
Wigglesworth, Haskell and Twelvetrees in squad for Samoa. The proof will of course be in the Aussie game, Eastmond has apparently had a knock but otherwise would have liked to have seen a similar team but with Haskell at 6, Ford at 10. I don't think Twelvetrees can cut it at this level other than being a utility player?
Returning to Aviva Premiership clubs
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
England squad to face Samoa
Forwards (13)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Backs (10)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Eastmond needs Ford at 10 to function. He needs someone to keep the opposition defence guessing so he can use his footwork at close quarters. Farrell just sells him down the river by playing deep and thus forcing Eastmond to run straight at people,which he's just too small to do. Barrit and Tuilagi may be feasible as a partnership but the former is a less of a running threat and a poorer distributor than Eastmond while the latter is defensively suspect (misses as many tackles as he makes) and can't release the back three. He's also not that quick. I like the look of Slade at Exeter myself. Statistically the best defensive centre in the Premiership and with the skills of a 10. Ford,Eastmond and him at 10/12/13 would free up the wings and, crucially, practice the art of a) passing and b) running at space. Alternatively Joseph at 13 gives you a back line that plays together at club level. But I think Slade has greater all round skills.
As for Farrell, his selection for these autumn internationals was nonsensical. Patently unfit and out of form. It indicates a management that, unwilling to blood new players for fear of encouraging a losing streak at a crucial point has ended up with both a losing streak and unblooded new players. Not good. Ford is quite patently Farrell's deputy and should have been played. In fact seeing as Farrell is such a known quantity Ford should have been played for all 4 tests.
I can guarantee that with everyone fit, available and in form, Lancaster would have no idea of his best back row because he cannot decide which sort of game England should be playing. I suspect Haskell will make him think twice about Vunipola, and Croft will challenge Wood, who doesn't appear to be doing much of note lately. And there are always doubts over Robshaw. Indeed, I suspect Lancaster was thankful that Kvesic has dipped in form and that Armitage didn't make it to Bath or he would have had to face some very difficult decisions
As for wings, don't think May is international level. His try against NZ was good but he'll never get that space again. He's not a finisher in the mould of Strettle. Shame,as his pace is incredible. But he's a flat track bully.
Basically, that second SA try summed it up for me. On the hoof thinking by 10, with perfect understanding by the 15 and sublime skills to finish it off. Contrast that with the sight of Attwood blundering up the pitch and resolutely refusing to pass to Watson. Perfect example of what this England team are about under Lancaster. Just not imbued with the necessary skills in all facets of the game,conceptually as well as physically. There is no-one in this team as intelligent, game-wise, as Dallaglio, Hill, Greenwood, Dawson et al.
As for Farrell, his selection for these autumn internationals was nonsensical. Patently unfit and out of form. It indicates a management that, unwilling to blood new players for fear of encouraging a losing streak at a crucial point has ended up with both a losing streak and unblooded new players. Not good. Ford is quite patently Farrell's deputy and should have been played. In fact seeing as Farrell is such a known quantity Ford should have been played for all 4 tests.
I can guarantee that with everyone fit, available and in form, Lancaster would have no idea of his best back row because he cannot decide which sort of game England should be playing. I suspect Haskell will make him think twice about Vunipola, and Croft will challenge Wood, who doesn't appear to be doing much of note lately. And there are always doubts over Robshaw. Indeed, I suspect Lancaster was thankful that Kvesic has dipped in form and that Armitage didn't make it to Bath or he would have had to face some very difficult decisions
As for wings, don't think May is international level. His try against NZ was good but he'll never get that space again. He's not a finisher in the mould of Strettle. Shame,as his pace is incredible. But he's a flat track bully.
Basically, that second SA try summed it up for me. On the hoof thinking by 10, with perfect understanding by the 15 and sublime skills to finish it off. Contrast that with the sight of Attwood blundering up the pitch and resolutely refusing to pass to Watson. Perfect example of what this England team are about under Lancaster. Just not imbued with the necessary skills in all facets of the game,conceptually as well as physically. There is no-one in this team as intelligent, game-wise, as Dallaglio, Hill, Greenwood, Dawson et al.
England team to face Samoa:
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 31 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 20 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 27 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 24 caps)
2. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
3. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 39 caps)
4. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 34 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 51 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 30 caps, captain)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 59 caps)
17. Matt Mullan (Wasps, 7 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 2 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 32 caps
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 14 caps
22. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 14 caps)
23. Marland Yarde (Harlequins, 5 caps)
Disappointed but not surprised by Farrell's move to 12.
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 31 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
13. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 20 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 27 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 24 caps)
2. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
3. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 39 caps)
4. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 34 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 51 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 30 caps, captain)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Replacements
16. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 59 caps)
17. Matt Mullan (Wasps, 7 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons, 4 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 2 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 32 caps
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 14 caps
22. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 14 caps)
23. Marland Yarde (Harlequins, 5 caps)
Disappointed but not surprised by Farrell's move to 12.
and is STILL there, at the very least let the bugger back to Sarries for a break. Liking the pack TBF though. Cips and LB must be wondering if they've been accused of crapping in Lanc's coffeeFarrell is simply not an international class inside centre.
Wtf is going on in English rugby when Farrell is the answer to who should play 12? Can you imagine Burrell there instead? Taking the ball at speed with Foird playing right on the gain line, flicking out late passes at the last possible minute?
Nope. We're not having any of that. This is England remember. Slow and predictable wins the day...
Wtf is going on in English rugby when Farrell is the answer to who should play 12? Can you imagine Burrell there instead? Taking the ball at speed with Foird playing right on the gain line, flicking out late passes at the last possible minute?
Nope. We're not having any of that. This is England remember. Slow and predictable wins the day...
Farrell seems to be getting the brunt of it when he should just be allowed to go back to his club and try to play himself back into form. Instead he'll continue to bare the brunt of it as the focus remains on him, it's like under age rugby where the coach picks his kid and the other parents get pissed! He's been somewhat extra exposed as Danny Care has also had a couple of poor performances. Farrell's strengths are his defence and his place kicking, it's ugly if it comes off but we've not played tight enough to award him the 3 pointers.
Getting away from Farrell for at least a few sentences...... The backrow looks more balanced with Morgan and Haskell, two ball carriers/line breakers and a grafter. Webber if his darts were as good as Hartley's would almost certainly keep him in the side.
I'd just like Lancaster to explain and justify his selections, it smacks of Farrell Snr having too much influence which sounds daft it can't be true cant it> Farrell AND Barritt in the centres? It's almost like they're setting Ford up to have no chance to look good, don't be surprised if Billy 36 comes on with Farrell going to 10 and Ford off. Any of the others English centres must be wondering if it's really worth bothering trying to break into the England side. I worry a bit about the defence a little, saw some analysis highlighting the absence of a sweeper which teams are exploiting.
We'll not learn much on Saturday I fear, we should win and comfortably after Samoa struggled against Canada and were beaten by Italy but if they're going to turn in a performance you'd expect this to be the. Team against Australia? Who knows? It looks like Care may have played himself out? I honestly expect Wood will come back regardless of how Haskell goes at the weekend.
Getting away from Farrell for at least a few sentences...... The backrow looks more balanced with Morgan and Haskell, two ball carriers/line breakers and a grafter. Webber if his darts were as good as Hartley's would almost certainly keep him in the side.
I'd just like Lancaster to explain and justify his selections, it smacks of Farrell Snr having too much influence which sounds daft it can't be true cant it> Farrell AND Barritt in the centres? It's almost like they're setting Ford up to have no chance to look good, don't be surprised if Billy 36 comes on with Farrell going to 10 and Ford off. Any of the others English centres must be wondering if it's really worth bothering trying to break into the England side. I worry a bit about the defence a little, saw some analysis highlighting the absence of a sweeper which teams are exploiting.
We'll not learn much on Saturday I fear, we should win and comfortably after Samoa struggled against Canada and were beaten by Italy but if they're going to turn in a performance you'd expect this to be the. Team against Australia? Who knows? It looks like Care may have played himself out? I honestly expect Wood will come back regardless of how Haskell goes at the weekend.
I know what people are saying about Farrell but Billy has been rubbish for the last 12 months, Burrell & Barritt are both outside centres - all along they have said they want a distributor at 12.
Farrell can do this - but agreed he is so far off the top echelons of international centres its untrue.
Lets also not forget that Ford can be shakey with the boot. Especially in pressure games and decisions can be lacking. (Last season final Bath game - went for a drop goal from near enough halfway - no chance - season over)
Whichever way you look at it we are short on inside centres. Billy, Eastmond, Farrell ?? who else? Tuilagi?
Ideally I want a playmaker at 12 and bulldozer at 13. Thats why Eastmond & Tuilagi get my vote (it is a democracy, right?).
Here is my starting world cup lineup - injuries permitting - based on overall ability/history/form (too far away to be too form focused - hoping some will find it for the 6 nations!).
Wilson, Hartley, Corbs
Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Vunipola, Robshaw
Care, Strettle, Ford, Eastmond, Tuilagi,Rokoduguni, Brown.
Maybe a bit short at lineout time. Its a first go at it.
Croft I really like but not convinced he can patch himself back together.
Plenty of excitement in the backline but then who do you bring on as a gamechanger? Should that be a concern though?
Farrell can do this - but agreed he is so far off the top echelons of international centres its untrue.
Lets also not forget that Ford can be shakey with the boot. Especially in pressure games and decisions can be lacking. (Last season final Bath game - went for a drop goal from near enough halfway - no chance - season over)
Whichever way you look at it we are short on inside centres. Billy, Eastmond, Farrell ?? who else? Tuilagi?
Ideally I want a playmaker at 12 and bulldozer at 13. Thats why Eastmond & Tuilagi get my vote (it is a democracy, right?).
Here is my starting world cup lineup - injuries permitting - based on overall ability/history/form (too far away to be too form focused - hoping some will find it for the 6 nations!).
Wilson, Hartley, Corbs
Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Vunipola, Robshaw
Care, Strettle, Ford, Eastmond, Tuilagi,Rokoduguni, Brown.
Maybe a bit short at lineout time. Its a first go at it.
Croft I really like but not convinced he can patch himself back together.
Plenty of excitement in the backline but then who do you bring on as a gamechanger? Should that be a concern though?
Joey Ramone said:
Farrell is simply not an international class inside centre.
Wtf is going on in English rugby when Farrell is the answer to who should play 12? Can you imagine Burrell there instead? Taking the ball at speed with Foird playing right on the gain line, flicking out late passes at the last possible minute?
Nope. We're not having any of that. This is England remember. Slow and predictable wins the day...
My first instinct is that Burrell is still not match fit...only explanation considering he was one of the stand out players last Autumn and in the six nations. Wtf is going on in English rugby when Farrell is the answer to who should play 12? Can you imagine Burrell there instead? Taking the ball at speed with Foird playing right on the gain line, flicking out late passes at the last possible minute?
Nope. We're not having any of that. This is England remember. Slow and predictable wins the day...
Vocal Minority said:
My first instinct is that Burrell is still not match fit...only explanation considering he was one of the stand out players last Autumn and in the six nations.
Injured hand wasn't it? I thought he'd joined the squad though for this game. Unless he's not quite fit (likely as he's not even on the bench) it makes putting Farrell at 12 even more strange.
prand said:
Vocal Minority said:
My first instinct is that Burrell is still not match fit...only explanation considering he was one of the stand out players last Autumn and in the six nations.
Injured hand wasn't it? I thought he'd joined the squad though for this game. Unless he's not quite fit (likely as he's not even on the bench) it makes putting Farrell at 12 even more strange.
Just confused why we're playing Farrell at 12, 10 months out from the world cup.
OldSpice said:
prand said:
Vocal Minority said:
My first instinct is that Burrell is still not match fit...only explanation considering he was one of the stand out players last Autumn and in the six nations.
Injured hand wasn't it? I thought he'd joined the squad though for this game. Unless he's not quite fit (likely as he's not even on the bench) it makes putting Farrell at 12 even more strange.
Just confused why we're playing Farrell at 12, 10 months out from the world cup.
London424 said:
My guess is to keep another kicker in the side and not have all the weight on Ford.
I suppose this might be an experiment for future big games, but you really don't need more than one kicker on the pitch at one time, particularly if it compromises the centre pairing. I'm somewhat despairing of what's going on in the England camp. So much promise and depth, it just doesn't look settled. Injuries are the big problem here I guess. I wonder if it's because the EPS guys are contracted/permitted to play no more than 35 top level (which is pretty much all Autumn & 6 nation tests, Premiership & European games!) a year, other Unions (Wales, New Zealand etc) have their maximum in the low 20's (this was read in a Times article a few weeks back).
prand said:
London424 said:
My guess is to keep another kicker in the side and not have all the weight on Ford.
I suppose this might be an experiment for future big games, but you really don't need more than one kicker on the pitch at one time, particularly if it compromises the centre pairing. I'm somewhat despairing of what's going on in the England camp. So much promise and depth, it just doesn't look settled. Injuries are the big problem here I guess. I wonder if it's because the EPS guys are contracted/permitted to play no more than 35 top level (which is pretty much all Autumn & 6 nation tests, Premiership & European games!) a year, other Unions (Wales, New Zealand etc) have their maximum in the low 20's (this was read in a Times article a few weeks back).
What I think would be good is for the coaching staff to come out and say how they want the team to perform and then pick accordingly.
I don't think England have the players that can play open, expansive rugby against the very best sides in the world and win.
They should use the pack (which is arguably the best in world rugby) and then be functional with everyone else. If they want to win that is.
The last two games have been the most frustrating for an England fan for a long time - NZ and SA were both there for the taking.
For me the biggest disappointment going into the series which has been highlighted even more now with OF playing at 12 is that he did not include a certain Mr Cipriani in the squad.
Myer (quite rightly IMO) is not even getting a look in against Samoa, so why the hell put him in the squad over DC? Last weekend against SA was back to England of old - lots of huffing and puffing, 9's going sideways, players passing to guys not expecting the ball standing still and no end result. In a situation like that (where SA could have easily been beaten) DC coming off the bench is the type of player who can spark something out of nothing, and we do not have many with that ability in the squad.
I think this has been the worst possible series that SL could have had going into a World Cup year, and I can see us struggling against Aus.
Lots of work to do over the next few months.
For me the biggest disappointment going into the series which has been highlighted even more now with OF playing at 12 is that he did not include a certain Mr Cipriani in the squad.
Myer (quite rightly IMO) is not even getting a look in against Samoa, so why the hell put him in the squad over DC? Last weekend against SA was back to England of old - lots of huffing and puffing, 9's going sideways, players passing to guys not expecting the ball standing still and no end result. In a situation like that (where SA could have easily been beaten) DC coming off the bench is the type of player who can spark something out of nothing, and we do not have many with that ability in the squad.
I think this has been the worst possible series that SL could have had going into a World Cup year, and I can see us struggling against Aus.
Lots of work to do over the next few months.
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