Rugby Union Autumn Internationals
Discussion
Just finished watching the England game
Not sure why we would ever play Farrell or Vunipola ever again on the back of that performance.
Farrell added nothing positive but made a lot of mistakes, Vunipola just couldn't even keep hold of the ball.
Both seriously outplayed by their replacements.
We have the players to be world beating again in every position except the critical ones!
Not sure why we would ever play Farrell or Vunipola ever again on the back of that performance.
Farrell added nothing positive but made a lot of mistakes, Vunipola just couldn't even keep hold of the ball.
Both seriously outplayed by their replacements.
We have the players to be world beating again in every position except the critical ones!
Lancaster has had what 2 plus years now? At first he did well after the world cup what was needed was a complete change in culture in the team as well as shedding what was left of the old guard.
I'm starting to wonder how much influence Farrell snr has on Lancaster, whether you like him or not he shouldn't have been picked for this series one because he's short of game time and two we need to give plan B some game time. Also I can't help but feel Farrell Saracens connection has had some influence on Vuniplola starting ahead or Morgan.
Watching the France game last night they were playing with pace and width which will also ask more questions over the course of a game than what England were doing yesterday trucking it up the middle.
1-5 minus Hartley when he's being an idiot are as good as angone but huge question marks over rest. Feeling like we've not really got anywhere since the last WC. Best of all these jokers have had their contracts extended until 2016. Bug decesion's to be made and fast.
I'm starting to wonder how much influence Farrell snr has on Lancaster, whether you like him or not he shouldn't have been picked for this series one because he's short of game time and two we need to give plan B some game time. Also I can't help but feel Farrell Saracens connection has had some influence on Vuniplola starting ahead or Morgan.
Watching the France game last night they were playing with pace and width which will also ask more questions over the course of a game than what England were doing yesterday trucking it up the middle.
1-5 minus Hartley when he's being an idiot are as good as angone but huge question marks over rest. Feeling like we've not really got anywhere since the last WC. Best of all these jokers have had their contracts extended until 2016. Bug decesion's to be made and fast.
The performance needs to be looked at in the context of having to field very under strength teams for the last two matches against the top two in the world. I think Farrell can come again but I regard Hartley as a dangerous liability who I don't like to see in an England shirt. This is far from World Cup winning form but beating NZ and SA with the personnel available was always going to be fanciful and the fact is they came close. I'll reserve judgement until we are at full strength.
9mm said:
The performance needs to be looked at in the context of having to field very under strength teams for the last two matches against the top two in the world. I think Farrell can come again but I regard Hartley as a dangerous liability who I don't like to see in an England shirt. This is far from World Cup winning form but beating NZ and SA with the personnel available was always going to be fanciful and the fact is they came close. I'll reserve judgement until we are at full strength.
I agree in part but to be honest whilst the injury list is long we've got equal replacements or long standing injury issues during the Lancaster reign. We've missed Joe Launchburry for the work he does in the ground/in the contact area which has shown the Wood/Robshaw balance up more. Dan Cole and Corbs are arguably the first choice props and haven't been available for what feels like donkeys years. Cole also added a bit more on the deck and around the park but I think our 2nd and 3rd choice props aren't far off.Centres we still don't know who our best partnership is, Tuilangi will no doubt come back in, doesn't matter who's on the wing these days. Could we have won on Saturday with a full strength side possibly, but the current set up seems to be relient on creating little and making less mistake than the oppo and taking 3 pointers. Will do against most teams but more often than not the top teams will put us away hence an earlier comment I made about Lancaster building a team that could get out of the WC pool but won't challenge.
irocfan said:
the problem is that we're addicted to stodge (playing wise) flair is still seen as a dirty word by England - if Campese had been English I suspect he'd have got, at best, a handful of caps and things do not seem to have changed 
We played very loose in NZ at times, but it was obvious we don't have the skill set to chuck it about so it's about striking a balance. In both the AB's and SA games we put down very takeable chances. It's encouraging when watching the younger England age groups as the core skills seems to being developed. irocfan said:
the problem is that we're addicted to stodge (playing wise) flair is still seen as a dirty word by England - if Campese had been English I suspect he'd have got, at best, a handful of caps and things do not seem to have changed
Plenty of flair to be seen at club level so I think something in the national coaching and management must be responsible for its absence in the national teams. Having said that, the top teams often grind out results. I think what we really lack is that decisive cutting edge. That ability to create and move quick ball and make truly incisive breaks. All the southern hemisphere teams have it, but NZ more than anyone.
Twickenham is a great rugby stadium, thoroughly enjoyed the day.
Lancaster needs to wield the axe,Farrell needs to go, ford and preferably Cipriani need a run, care just needs some clean ball. Vunipola is lumbering, Ben Morgan to start, Steffan Armitage to start, Eastmond is tiny for international rugby, some beef is needed.
Hartley is still suffering from brain explosions. Lawes needs to remember he is a lock, not a center. Pack is top quality, needs a proper ball carrier Haskell perhaps, and a fetcher, but 9, 10, 12,13 are the problem. Decision making and lack of tactical kicking needs work.
Robshaw's post match interview was really poor, as was Brown's.
Lancaster needs to wield the axe,Farrell needs to go, ford and preferably Cipriani need a run, care just needs some clean ball. Vunipola is lumbering, Ben Morgan to start, Steffan Armitage to start, Eastmond is tiny for international rugby, some beef is needed.
Hartley is still suffering from brain explosions. Lawes needs to remember he is a lock, not a center. Pack is top quality, needs a proper ball carrier Haskell perhaps, and a fetcher, but 9, 10, 12,13 are the problem. Decision making and lack of tactical kicking needs work.
Robshaw's post match interview was really poor, as was Brown's.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 17th November 07:28
a311 said:
1-5 minus Hartley when he's being an idiot are as good as angone but huge question marks over rest. Feeling like we've not really got anywhere since the last WC. Best of all these jokers have had their contracts extended until 2016. Bug decesion's to be made and fast.
For what I can see, England is a demonstrably better unit than at the last world cup, and to suggest otherwise is to forget how bad they were. I think the reason people feel like the team have got no where is that they were hoping (egged on by the media) for world beaters by now. Which is silly IMHO.Big decisions and fast? I presume you mean 'sack the lot'. 12 months before a world cup. On the basis of 2 narrow defeats to the best 2 teams in the world - playing with a team with an injury list of 4 or 5 first choice starters.
Get a f
king grip. Edited by Vocal Minority on Monday 17th November 09:08
Vocal Minority said:
For what I can see, England is a demonstrably better unit than at the last world cup, and to suggest otherwise is to forget how bad they were. I think the reason people feel like the team have got no where is that they were hoping (egged on by the media) for world beaters by now. Which is silly IMHO.
Big decisions and fast? I presume you mean 'sack the lot'. 12 months before a world cup. On the basis of 2 narrow defeats to the best 2 teams in the world - playing with a team with an injury list of 4 or 5 first choice starters.
Get a fking grip.
Out of interest, who should be the starting 10?Big decisions and fast? I presume you mean 'sack the lot'. 12 months before a world cup. On the basis of 2 narrow defeats to the best 2 teams in the world - playing with a team with an injury list of 4 or 5 first choice starters.
Get a f
king grip. Edited by Vocal Minority on Monday 17th November 09:08
And what centre pairing?
At Twickenham in the West Village, we were debating just these two questions for hours on Saturday!
It is far easier to calm down a maverick talent and coach some structure into him than coach flair into a dullard.....
The worry is that I don't believe we even know our first choice 10, 12, 13 midfield.
Slaav said:
Vocal Minority said:
For what I can see, England is a demonstrably better unit than at the last world cup, and to suggest otherwise is to forget how bad they were. I think the reason people feel like the team have got no where is that they were hoping (egged on by the media) for world beaters by now. Which is silly IMHO.
Big decisions and fast? I presume you mean 'sack the lot'. 12 months before a world cup. On the basis of 2 narrow defeats to the best 2 teams in the world - playing with a team with an injury list of 4 or 5 first choice starters.
Get a fking grip.
Out of interest, who should be the starting 10?Big decisions and fast? I presume you mean 'sack the lot'. 12 months before a world cup. On the basis of 2 narrow defeats to the best 2 teams in the world - playing with a team with an injury list of 4 or 5 first choice starters.
Get a f
king grip. Edited by Vocal Minority on Monday 17th November 09:08
And what centre pairing?
At Twickenham in the West Village, we were debating just these two questions for hours on Saturday!
It is far easier to calm down a maverick talent and coach some structure into him than coach flair into a dullard.....
The worry is that I don't believe we even know our first choice 10, 12, 13 midfield.
The main thing though is that we can thank our lucky stars we're not Welsh!!
10 - Farrell blows got and cold and he shouldn't be as nailed on in the ten as he seems to be. I would take Myler out EPS and put Cipriani in. I would personally give Ford a bash over Farrell against Samoa.
My preferred centre partnership is Burrell at 12 and Tuilagi at 13. Though Kyle Eastmond is progressing well - to the poster above, bulking him up would ruin him.
My preferred centre partnership is Burrell at 12 and Tuilagi at 13. Though Kyle Eastmond is progressing well - to the poster above, bulking him up would ruin him.
I don't see anything wrong with having some smaller players in the team. It offers something different up and as someone else has pointed out, means that they have to have a bit more skill. On a similar note, Wade is quite clearly back to fitness and form, time to bring him back in?
Think a lot of changes need to be made for the Samoa game. Not saying don't stick with some players (Care for example) but let them know that their players are guaranteed. Ford (with maybe a cameo for Cips) at 10, Wade in at wing and I reckon swap Brown for Watson at FB. Maybe call up Burrell as well?
Think a lot of changes need to be made for the Samoa game. Not saying don't stick with some players (Care for example) but let them know that their players are guaranteed. Ford (with maybe a cameo for Cips) at 10, Wade in at wing and I reckon swap Brown for Watson at FB. Maybe call up Burrell as well?
Deja vu!
Just like the West village all over again....
The consensus was that Faz has to be dropped and Ford given game time with Cips's journey back into the fold continuing....
Ford (form player) with Cips strolling on and working his magic with (eg) MT and KE outside him and two proper wingers would thoroughly exhaust even NZ back row with McCaw at 6 as in this weekend.
Imagine a game or three where the big 3 (or 4 if you include Ire) are truly worried or in full on panic mode when we get the ball in open play? It would rip the opposition defensive lines apart? NZ always had that aura over recent years and although they aren't quite as terrifying as they have been, it must be exhausting to play against as the covering defensive lines become shuttle sprints rather than realignments etc.
There could be many centre combinations but MT is a Freak and potential game breaker. KE has shown that there is still room for little fellas even at centre in the modern game!
BB doesn't do much wrong..... Etc etc.
House chewing over it!
Just like the West village all over again....
The consensus was that Faz has to be dropped and Ford given game time with Cips's journey back into the fold continuing....
Ford (form player) with Cips strolling on and working his magic with (eg) MT and KE outside him and two proper wingers would thoroughly exhaust even NZ back row with McCaw at 6 as in this weekend.
Imagine a game or three where the big 3 (or 4 if you include Ire) are truly worried or in full on panic mode when we get the ball in open play? It would rip the opposition defensive lines apart? NZ always had that aura over recent years and although they aren't quite as terrifying as they have been, it must be exhausting to play against as the covering defensive lines become shuttle sprints rather than realignments etc.
There could be many centre combinations but MT is a Freak and potential game breaker. KE has shown that there is still room for little fellas even at centre in the modern game!
BB doesn't do much wrong..... Etc etc.
House chewing over it!
The thing about "ringing the changes" for the Samoa game isn't really going to tell anyone anything, unless good performances are rewarded with a place against Oz the week after.
Everyone is expecting a win against Samoa so changing 10, 12, 13 etc doesn't show anyone (coaches or fans) how they are going to perform against the best sides in the world...and that is where England need to be measuring themselves.
Everyone is expecting a win against Samoa so changing 10, 12, 13 etc doesn't show anyone (coaches or fans) how they are going to perform against the best sides in the world...and that is where England need to be measuring themselves.
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