The Swimming Thread - Pool/OW
Discussion
Otispunkmeyer said:
Notice as well the big guys are doing the 50 by pretty much wind-milling. Straight arm recovery, almost straight arm pull. It develops a lot of drag, which is why you'll see distance stars like Sun Yang with very pronounced high elbow pull. You generate less leverage, less power, but you have much less drag to overcome and in water, drag will always win out. But on the 50, if you're strong enough, you can go all out with straight arms as fast as you can twirl them. Massive power for short time. Like the 50 back, its becoming all about turn over now.
You need serious upper body and arm strength to pull that off. I can manage it for the first 25 of a 50, but I have to transition back to some kind of bent elbow swimming after that otherwise I can feel drag getting me.
I wish someone had told me exactly this when I started to properly swim about 4 years ago, it's taken me that long to figure out how much more efficient a high elbow is - saw a woman in the pool the other day who was doing it perfectly and motoring through the water overtaking all the blokes with their straight arms!You need serious upper body and arm strength to pull that off. I can manage it for the first 25 of a 50, but I have to transition back to some kind of bent elbow swimming after that otherwise I can feel drag getting me.
I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
JRM said:
I wish someone had told me exactly this when I started to properly swim about 4 years ago, it's taken me that long to figure out how much more efficient a high elbow is - saw a woman in the pool the other day who was doing it perfectly and motoring through the water overtaking all the blokes with their straight arms!
I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
Watch the videos of Ledeky's swims she has a perfect high elbow catch/pull and look how fast she is. There is a good swim smooth video on YT comparing Non Stanford and Becky Addlington.I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
I have been working on mine recently. I tried the finis fulcrum which is supposed to force your arm into that position but found it a bit annoying. I od the barrel reach drill which works well.
JRM said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
Notice as well the big guys are doing the 50 by pretty much wind-milling. Straight arm recovery, almost straight arm pull. It develops a lot of drag, which is why you'll see distance stars like Sun Yang with very pronounced high elbow pull. You generate less leverage, less power, but you have much less drag to overcome and in water, drag will always win out. But on the 50, if you're strong enough, you can go all out with straight arms as fast as you can twirl them. Massive power for short time. Like the 50 back, its becoming all about turn over now.
You need serious upper body and arm strength to pull that off. I can manage it for the first 25 of a 50, but I have to transition back to some kind of bent elbow swimming after that otherwise I can feel drag getting me.
I wish someone had told me exactly this when I started to properly swim about 4 years ago, it's taken me that long to figure out how much more efficient a high elbow is - saw a woman in the pool the other day who was doing it perfectly and motoring through the water overtaking all the blokes with their straight arms!You need serious upper body and arm strength to pull that off. I can manage it for the first 25 of a 50, but I have to transition back to some kind of bent elbow swimming after that otherwise I can feel drag getting me.
I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
I changed my head position a few months ago after watching Gary Hall Snr and Junya Koga talk about this and it does feel noticeably better. Like there is no water pressure on your back. I use this for all distances as well and with improved UW kicking I have managed to start bringing my 50 and 100 times down.
On an unrelated note. I have just seen some pictures of Phelps from US Nationals in Texas. They guy is looking hench! he looks much bigger now than I remember. Equally noticeable is that he seems to be competing in his own sports clobber... MP branded goggles and shorts and poolside kit.
944fan said:
JRM said:
I wish someone had told me exactly this when I started to properly swim about 4 years ago, it's taken me that long to figure out how much more efficient a high elbow is - saw a woman in the pool the other day who was doing it perfectly and motoring through the water overtaking all the blokes with their straight arms!
I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
Watch the videos of Ledeky's swims she has a perfect high elbow catch/pull and look how fast she is. There is a good swim smooth video on YT comparing Non Stanford and Becky Addlington.I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
I have been working on mine recently. I tried the finis fulcrum which is supposed to force your arm into that position but found it a bit annoying. I od the barrel reach drill which works well.
Again I suggest going to TheRaceClub on YouTube and watching their videos about this. Gary Hall Snr is an ex US Olympian (and so is his son!) and he knows what he's talking about. He's down in Florida and his training camp sees some very big names passing through. He explains the straight arm vs high elbow perfectly. Additionally they also have videos showing the different types of freestyle...
Shoulder driven (mostly for sprints)
Hip driven (distance)
Hybrid (Hip on oneside, shoulder on the other and used for middle distance).
I quite like Hybrid but its difficult to get right. I often still have a decent stretch/glide time on the stroke that should be going straight into catch (the side that is opposite the breathing side). But if anything breathing 2's gets me the oxygen I want!
Otispunkmeyer said:
On an unrelated note. I have just seen some pictures of Phelps from US Nationals in Texas. They guy is looking hench! he looks much bigger now than I remember. Equally noticeable is that he seems to be competing in his own sports clobber... MP branded goggles and shorts and poolside kit.
I thought that too. He always had a relatively flat chest, especially compared to e.g. Jason Lezak but now his pecks look much bigger. When I was watching the swimming the other day my wife enquired why when I spend all that time swimming I don't look like that.You can't out swim the amount of cake I eat.
The MP gear is part of his new deal with Aqua Sphere. The Expresso jammers are right up there with the Arena Carbon Pro and Speedo LZR in terms of cost.
944fan said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
On an unrelated note. I have just seen some pictures of Phelps from US Nationals in Texas. They guy is looking hench! he looks much bigger now than I remember. Equally noticeable is that he seems to be competing in his own sports clobber... MP branded goggles and shorts and poolside kit.
I thought that too. He always had a relatively flat chest, especially compared to e.g. Jason Lezak but now his pecks look much bigger. When I was watching the swimming the other day my wife enquired why when I spend all that time swimming I don't look like that.You can't out swim the amount of cake I eat.
The MP gear is part of his new deal with Aqua Sphere. The Expresso jammers are right up there with the Arena Carbon Pro and Speedo LZR in terms of cost.
His shoulders and delts just look massive. That doesn't come from the pool in-fact I'd say it comes in spite of the pool. All that yardage works against you bulking up. Thats all gym work and eating a boat load of the right stuff.
944fan said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
I don't doubt they are decent bits of kit....ill be sticking to speedo though!
Have you ever used LZR jammers? Just wonder what they are like and do they make any difference?Do they make a difference? Hard to tell really. I think I get a little bit out of the compression they provide and I rarely race in my training kit so I don't know if they're faster or not!
Putting them on dry is a bit of effort because out of the packet they are tiny. Once on they feel like tight cycling shorts. In the water it does feel weird, it feels like the water isn't grabbing at you. Might be down to them covering your leg hair though! You do feel like you've got less drag on those parts.
I guess they may give you a bit of placebo pep!
Otispunkmeyer said:
944fan said:
JRM said:
I wish someone had told me exactly this when I started to properly swim about 4 years ago, it's taken me that long to figure out how much more efficient a high elbow is - saw a woman in the pool the other day who was doing it perfectly and motoring through the water overtaking all the blokes with their straight arms!
I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
Watch the videos of Ledeky's swims she has a perfect high elbow catch/pull and look how fast she is. There is a good swim smooth video on YT comparing Non Stanford and Becky Addlington.I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
I have been working on mine recently. I tried the finis fulcrum which is supposed to force your arm into that position but found it a bit annoying. I od the barrel reach drill which works well.
Again I suggest going to TheRaceClub on YouTube and watching their videos about this. Gary Hall Snr is an ex US Olympian (and so is his son!) and he knows what he's talking about. He's down in Florida and his training camp sees some very big names passing through. He explains the straight arm vs high elbow perfectly. Additionally they also have videos showing the different types of freestyle...
Shoulder driven (mostly for sprints)
Hip driven (distance)
Hybrid (Hip on oneside, shoulder on the other and used for middle distance).
I quite like Hybrid but its difficult to get right. I often still have a decent stretch/glide time on the stroke that should be going straight into catch (the side that is opposite the breathing side). But if anything breathing 2's gets me the oxygen I want!
I can highly recommend the Swim Smooth technique days if you can get on one, they are brilliant for correcting those minor things you didn't know you were doing wrong. One of the things I was doing wrong with high elbow was that I was trying to use my shoulders too much for the pull, rather than my lats, meaning I was tiring out a smaller muscle quickly rather than using a larger more powerful muscle. Chopped a good 10 secs off my 100m times taking me down to around 1m 8s when previously I was around 1m 18-20 secs. Subsequently my 200 and 400's improved exponentially as I could keep a stronger pace for longer.
They don't teach high elbow to novices as it requires a fair bit of shoulder flexibility and conditioning to be safe to do consistently. Done incorrectly on unconditioned muscles it can be a really bad way to ensure you don't keep up your swimming.
They don't teach high elbow to novices as it requires a fair bit of shoulder flexibility and conditioning to be safe to do consistently. Done incorrectly on unconditioned muscles it can be a really bad way to ensure you don't keep up your swimming.
DJRC said:
Phelps has added muscle to go with his reach. f
king monster of a bloke now!
Its worked though...A comeback which appears not to be ending in a fail. His times at nationals would have gotten him 3 gold medals at worlds!king monster of a bloke now!Excited to see if he can keep it up another year for Rio.
Would be nice to see him get one individual gold. Though I suspect there will be some young-upstart freak beast from somewhere who will upstage everyone.
My eye had recovered and I thought I would be back swimming this week . Unfortunately my eye has taken a turn again and so back to the eye clinic. Wont be swimming for quite a while.
Going to have to pull out of my 10K and will have to pull out of Coniston End-to-end (and lose the £95 entry fee).
fking gutted. Had such a great start to my season and its been a disaster for months now.
Going to get aquatinted with the rowing machine at the gym and try and keep my fitness up.
Going to have to pull out of my 10K and will have to pull out of Coniston End-to-end (and lose the £95 entry fee).
f
king gutted. Had such a great start to my season and its been a disaster for months now.Going to get aquatinted with the rowing machine at the gym and try and keep my fitness up.
JRM said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
944fan said:
JRM said:
I wish someone had told me exactly this when I started to properly swim about 4 years ago, it's taken me that long to figure out how much more efficient a high elbow is - saw a woman in the pool the other day who was doing it perfectly and motoring through the water overtaking all the blokes with their straight arms!
I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
Watch the videos of Ledeky's swims she has a perfect high elbow catch/pull and look how fast she is. There is a good swim smooth video on YT comparing Non Stanford and Becky Addlington.I don't understand why so many coaches don't teach novices this as most of us aren't trying to be a 50m champion, but want to swim longer distances for fitness.
I have been working on mine recently. I tried the finis fulcrum which is supposed to force your arm into that position but found it a bit annoying. I od the barrel reach drill which works well.
Again I suggest going to TheRaceClub on YouTube and watching their videos about this. Gary Hall Snr is an ex US Olympian (and so is his son!) and he knows what he's talking about. He's down in Florida and his training camp sees some very big names passing through. He explains the straight arm vs high elbow perfectly. Additionally they also have videos showing the different types of freestyle...
Shoulder driven (mostly for sprints)
Hip driven (distance)
Hybrid (Hip on oneside, shoulder on the other and used for middle distance).
I quite like Hybrid but its difficult to get right. I often still have a decent stretch/glide time on the stroke that should be going straight into catch (the side that is opposite the breathing side). But if anything breathing 2's gets me the oxygen I want!
RobM77 said:
I'd highly recommend getting yourself filmed underwater and coached from that. Swimming's an odd sport in that you really can't see yourself doing it, but have no real reference of what you're doing. That means you have to rely on a coach, but the problem with coaches is most of the time they're above the water, but almost everything that you're doing of any note will be under the water (because that's where your drive and drag come from, water being 800 times denser than air). I've had quite a lot of coaching with underwater filming (maybe 30 or 40 sessions over a 3 or 4 year period) and it's utterly transformed my swimming.
Definitely this! And if you can get a session at a real pool rather than with an infinite pool it's even better!TheAllSeeingPie said:
RobM77 said:
I'd highly recommend getting yourself filmed underwater and coached from that. Swimming's an odd sport in that you really can't see yourself doing it, but have no real reference of what you're doing. That means you have to rely on a coach, but the problem with coaches is most of the time they're above the water, but almost everything that you're doing of any note will be under the water (because that's where your drive and drag come from, water being 800 times denser than air). I've had quite a lot of coaching with underwater filming (maybe 30 or 40 sessions over a 3 or 4 year period) and it's utterly transformed my swimming.
Definitely this! And if you can get a session at a real pool rather than with an infinite pool it's even better!
It's amazing the differences between what you think you're doing and what you actually do. The effectiveness of technique training in this manner is utterly remarkable. In the three or four years that I had the regular coaching I went from someone who could barely swim a length of front crawl, despite two attempts at group swimming lessons and two attempts at one to one swimming lessons, to someone who could not only swim a mile non stop in open water, but actually put in reasonably competitive times in the process. It was night and day for me. To be fair it wasn't just the filming, it was also the teaching method of Total Immersion, but the filming was a crucial part of it. I'd highly recommend at least one session, preferably a course of lessons.
This is why at Lboro they have :
under water viewing windows.
a track in-laid on the poolside for a camera buggy to ride up and down on.
a full length (50m) aerial camera rig along the ceiling.
At one time we also had movable mirrors on the pool floor, but they often ended up going a bit fun-house after a while. But while they were there they were very useful. You could look down at the floor and see what your arms were doing!
I have seen plenty of research papers on in water technique and start/turn technique too. A lot of it started with the sports-tech people who moved to Holywell park ages ago and seem to keep to themselves, but I noticed a number of swimming based research projects heading back to the engineering school where they can do all the laser investigation. We had one looking at how the track start blocks can improve dive performance I another one I saw was going to look at ideal hand position and finger separation (splay) using laser PIV in a flow rig. Technique is all important.
Young lad at my club proves it. Just turned 13, can do 56 for 100 free, low 60's for 100 IM. His long distance stuff is unreal. He's into the 15 minutes zone for a 1500 already. He is very tall for his age, easily 6ft, but he's a rake. Can't do me over a 50, but double the distance and hes right on my heels, double it again and he's out in front. He has no where near my strength, must have minimal drag and the catch of all catches on the water. He's astonishing to watch.
If you're in the Derby/Notts area I can recommend finding out the likes of Mel Marshall and Ross Davenport. I had a session with Mel to help straighten out my backstroke. She does the whole session with you in the water. Spotted the problem within about 2 lengths. She's very good.
under water viewing windows.
a track in-laid on the poolside for a camera buggy to ride up and down on.
a full length (50m) aerial camera rig along the ceiling.
At one time we also had movable mirrors on the pool floor, but they often ended up going a bit fun-house after a while. But while they were there they were very useful. You could look down at the floor and see what your arms were doing!
I have seen plenty of research papers on in water technique and start/turn technique too. A lot of it started with the sports-tech people who moved to Holywell park ages ago and seem to keep to themselves, but I noticed a number of swimming based research projects heading back to the engineering school where they can do all the laser investigation. We had one looking at how the track start blocks can improve dive performance I another one I saw was going to look at ideal hand position and finger separation (splay) using laser PIV in a flow rig. Technique is all important.
Young lad at my club proves it. Just turned 13, can do 56 for 100 free, low 60's for 100 IM. His long distance stuff is unreal. He's into the 15 minutes zone for a 1500 already. He is very tall for his age, easily 6ft, but he's a rake. Can't do me over a 50, but double the distance and hes right on my heels, double it again and he's out in front. He has no where near my strength, must have minimal drag and the catch of all catches on the water. He's astonishing to watch.
If you're in the Derby/Notts area I can recommend finding out the likes of Mel Marshall and Ross Davenport. I had a session with Mel to help straighten out my backstroke. She does the whole session with you in the water. Spotted the problem within about 2 lengths. She's very good.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 16th September 15:13
I can't speak for others, but I would personally say that the most useful thing for me improving my swimming has been zoomed in underwater slow motion that the coach can pause and explain things to me with. In my last session we worked on hip/arm timing on rotation with these cameras, and from the beginning of the session to the end if I remember rightly she gained me a solid and repeatable 2 seconds on my 100m time - quite impressive.
Things seemed to have gone quiet in here.
First time back in the pool since July and did 1.5k in 28 minutes which is only 2 minutes off my PB. Followed that with 4 x 50m all out with 30- 40 seconds recovery in between. I nearly sank during my final 10m or so
I have added on swimming to my gym membership so will be looking to do 2 or 3 sessions a week now.
First time back in the pool since July and did 1.5k in 28 minutes which is only 2 minutes off my PB. Followed that with 4 x 50m all out with 30- 40 seconds recovery in between. I nearly sank during my final 10m or so
I have added on swimming to my gym membership so will be looking to do 2 or 3 sessions a week now.
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