The Swimming Thread - Pool/OW

[Otispunkmeyer]

Flipatron said:

I've been swimming regularly now since Summer 2014.

I try to do an hour each evening 4-5 times a week (work depending). Seems to be the ideal way of keeping fit without wearing my joints out and also avoids me getting bored in the gym.

Currently takes me an hour to do approx 2300m, I do nothing but front crawl. I've watched videos on YouTube about technique which I think has helped me, feels like it anyway. I don't exactly push myself during the hour and I feel there's more speed within me.

Now I've just hit 47 but would love to take my swimming more seriously. I'm based in south Cheshire and use the 20m pool at the Bannantynes in Crewe. Would love to get some coaching to improve my technique and times, would also love to compete but feel I'm probably too old.

47? Nonsense. I swim with 40-50 year olds who can more than hold their own. One guy is still the dogs at 100 fly and swims it against teenagers in the arena league regularly. Older than that, you can go to national masters champs and watch people verging on 100 years old get in the pool and do races of all strokes.

If you want to improve technique (which is nearly everything in swimming, you can be as strong as an ox but if you have no efficiency in the water, you're going no where). Try find a 1-to-1 type coach, should be plenty of them about, bonus if they're ex-GB or even if they were on a good uni team.

Another point to note, for good swimming you need a good core. Let me know if you want some info about what exercises to do. I have a few PDFs I can send you.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Monch said:

FunkyNige said:

Right then, I could do with a few pointers from people who swim longer distances... For some reason I've gone and signed up for the Sport Relief 5k swim in March but 5k is well over double the distance I've swam before.
I currently swim 2k twice a week so I'm reasonably happy I can finish without drowning, but what else should I be worried about? I'm guessing it will take me about 2 hours (2k takes me about 40-45 minutes) so will I need to leave a banana at the end of the pool to munch on every now and again? Or just a bottle of Lucozade?

Well done!

Is the 5k in a pool? If so that's bit easier as you've no need to plan a route and sighting.

If you're thinking of doing this in one go then I would recommend.
Aim to reduce your cadence, long gliding and reducing the kick to a balancing motion, whilst obviously maintaining a perfectly level body position, head still, bilateral breathing and a good tumble turn for a nice kickoff each time.
Easy !

I generally swim 4K ish every weekday, and vary my routine into pyramids and various 10x sets for example this week
Pyramids of 25/50/75/100/200/300/400/800 and back down
Or a set of 100/200 10x 400 200/100
Drills will be done within the different modes, so some will be catch up, salutes, pull bouy, paddles, finger dragging, zippers etc. And then these will be done with different breathing times, every 2,3,5 and 7 strokes per breath.

I would focus heavily on body position, a still head, gliding and not kicking too hard.

Then build up the pyramids and increase the 10x sets to a point where 5k is done in a 'broken' swim and then hopefully before March you will get a few 5k continuous swims in.

And a week before the event taper down in the week to say 500-1000m easy relaxed swim, so on the day your bursting with energy....

Oh, and for drinks, I make my own cordial drink with a twist of salt in it for during the rest bits, and then make a shake drink to be drunk as soon the swim is finished in the pool, which is....
Oats, honey, peanut butter, banana, strawberries and milk, smoothied up. Delicious!!!
N
Good luck

Excellent points. For distance swimming, look no further than the greats of Hackett, Thorpe, Sun Yang et al for distance stroke. 2-beat kick, hip driven rotation and a long stroke that almost looks like catch up (3/4 catch up). The glide portion actually helps your muscles recover after each stroke. Research has shown you can exert force for longer when having short breathers between applications of force. Head down looking at the bottom to keep the hips high in the water is crucial as well as high elbows on the pull. Its a weaker pull, but reduced water resistance, and it is the drag that will get you on a distance swim. So be thinking of minimizing that as a priority.

As for bi-lateral breathing? Don't get too hung up on breathing in a particular pattern. Just watch the top guys, often changing from between breathing 2's, 3's, 4's to suit. Personally for distance I would breath 2's and then alternate sides on a per length basis. I remember one time GB 800m swimmer Becky Cooke used to breath 2-2-3 for the whole 800. Its about getting the air you need, you should be getting plenty of air on a distance swim, its better in the long term than worrying about additional drag induced by breathing more.

Cordial and a bit of salt is fine. Not far off the luminous blue stuff you can get from a vending machine. For recovery, if you're feeling a bit drained.... chocolate milk. Just plain old chocolate milk. Pretty much has the perfect ratio of carbs, protein and sugar to pep you back up. Works a treat.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 17th December 09:31

[Flipatron]

Otispunkmeyer said:

47? Nonsense. I swim with 40-50 year olds who can more than hold their own. One guy is still the dogs at 100 fly and swims it against teenagers in the arena league regularly. Older than that, you can go to national masters champs and watch people verging on 100 years old get in the pool and do races of all strokes.

If you want to improve technique (which is nearly everything in swimming, you can be as strong as an ox but if you have no efficiency in the water, you're going no where). Try find a 1-to-1 type coach, should be plenty of them about, bonus if they're ex-GB or even if they were on a good uni team.

Another point to note, for good swimming you need a good core. Let me know if you want some info about what exercises to do. I have a few PDFs I can send you.

That would be much appreciated, thanks. I'll PM you my email address.

Not timed myself for a few months, turns out I'm now doing almost 3000m in 1 hour which I was chuffed to find out. I do have to pause every 120m to clean my goggles so loose a bit of time there.

[Highway Star]

Exactly, I also swim Masters (when I'm training) - 38 next year, but we have guys up to 80 at our club. This is the first year I've not swam Arena League against 16, 17 and 18 year olds, (in the dizzying heights of Western League Div 2 for my second claim club, I don't get near the team in my first claim club as they get to National A or B finals generally). You are never too young to improve at swimming; that is one of the beauties of it as a sport!

[JackP1]

First time back in the pool in 18months, did 1800m in a 45min session which was pleasing.
This is 7 years now since i was in competitive swimming, with talk of european masters flying about between a few ex-swimmers its a chance to get back into it and do some decent exercise again!

Will more than likely try and pick it up 500m extra every session ( once per week, would try and do two ) just to ease back into it.

Generally felt as good ( read crap ) as i have done in previous times. First 100 is like you've never left and anything after that it's like you're flapping around like you've never swam before.
Turns and pushoffs still feel as strong as they would have done, hold a 5m underwater with ease.

[944fan]

Had my first swim back after quite a while off. Wasn't too bad, felt hard work though, especially in my arms. I've entered a half ironman this summer, not concerned about the swim at all but certainly need some time to get my fitness and "feel" back. Run on the other hand is a problem.

In other news Katie Leadecky has broken her 800m WR again at the Arena series in the states. She now has the top 8 fast 800m times of all time and 9 in the top ten. Amazing.

Phelps beat Lochte in the 200 IM as well.

Going to be a good Olympics, if you are an American.

[krallicious]

Good effort.

I'm still trying to find the motivation to wake up early, cycle 10km and swim. By these temperatures it is difficult!

[briangriffin]

I'm a bit of a swimming newby with a big distance swim looming in 6 months. Did my longest total distance recently (1KM) with regular stops. I find i'm getting out of breath quickly.

any tips to improve my breathing?

i've had 1 on 1 coaching in a small pool and he doesnt seem to concerned on my technique im just worrying on the whole having to stop every 50M for a proper breather. I'm fit from running etc but could it be that i'm also getting out of breath because i'm not swim fit and using different muscles when swimming?

any advice is appriciated

[944fan]

briangriffin said:

I'm a bit of a swimming newby with a big distance swim looming in 6 months. Did my longest total distance recently (1KM) with regular stops. I find i'm getting out of breath quickly.

any tips to improve my breathing?

i've had 1 on 1 coaching in a small pool and he doesnt seem to concerned on my technique im just worrying on the whole having to stop every 50M for a proper breather. I'm fit from running etc but could it be that i'm also getting out of breath because i'm not swim fit and using different muscles when swimming?

any advice is appriciated

If you are having to stop every 50m but your coach doesn't think there is a problem with your technique then I would find another coach.

Firstly are you fully breathing out underwater? Failing to exhale completely when your face is in the water means you turn to breathe and have to breathe out before taking a breath, and you will never get a full breath that way.

Second, what's your arm turnover like (stroke per minute) and how often are you breathing (e.g every 2/3/4 strokes). I am very tall with long arms and my turnover is quite low, I have to breathe every two strokes or I will get out of breath quickly. If you are taking a lot of strokes between breaths you could try reducing them or focus on increasing your stroke rate.

Third. What is your pacing like? Possibly because you are already fit you are setting off too fast. Swim fitness is quite specific and there isn't much cross over from running.

Are you creating a lot of drag when you swim? Sinky legs and/or too high a head position.

How long did it take you to do 1km and what is the bis swim you have ahead of you?

[Monch]

As above, you need to give a bit more info

I'm asthmatic and I don't have trouble breathing for 8k, 2 hour swims, non stop.
I see it a lot at my local DL gym.
The muscle men from the weights area, get in the pool, and think they are so strong, and then after 2 lengths they are knackered.....(I'm not saying your a muscle man!)

So much technique involved in good swimming, I fear your coach maybe a problem.
Can you tell us about your coach and his background and ability?

Edited by Monch on Sunday 24th January 23:20

Edited by Monch on Sunday 24th January 23:21

[briangriffin]

944fan said:

If you are having to stop every 50m but your coach doesn't think there is a problem with your technique then I would find another coach.

Firstly are you fully breathing out underwater? Failing to exhale completely when your face is in the water means you turn to breathe and have to breathe out before taking a breath, and you will never get a full breath that way.

Second, what's your arm turnover like (stroke per minute) and how often are you breathing (e.g every 2/3/4 strokes). I am very tall with long arms and my turnover is quite low, I have to breathe every two strokes or I will get out of breath quickly. If you are taking a lot of strokes between breaths you could try reducing them or focus on increasing your stroke rate.

Third. What is your pacing like? Possibly because you are already fit you are setting off too fast. Swim fitness is quite specific and there isn't much cross over from running.

Are you creating a lot of drag when you swim? Sinky legs and/or too high a head position.

How long did it take you to do 1km and what is the bis swim you have ahead of you?

Coaching i'd had was primarily for my stroke (as i was basically starting from scratch), Had a recent lesson with the coach to concentrate on just my breathing which has worked wonders, I think it was half lack of swim fitness and half me snatching a breath. My fitness background is generally from running and combat sports so high intensity stuff. Not a lot in the way for facilities where i live so the lessons ive had are in a 10M pool so hard for the coach to get a proper judge on my breathing in his defence (there is a 25M pool but not for hire and they have their own coaches which dont give u the required 1 on 1 training)

i'm a 2 stroke breather now which seems to have worked in my most recent 1km test. i've gone from 5o mins + (obv including my stops for breathers) to just over 30 mins, still a couple of stops but the confidence is there now that i can get there with no stops with plenty of pool time.

My pace seems to be pretty consistant at around 3 mins for 100m, even if i'm pushing it or taking it easy so obv from there i guess when pushing it i'm sacrificing good technique for arm turnover. The other thing ive been told is i dont always finish my stroke completely and get the full push underwater.

Legs may be a bit sinky too i think and i do find my quad muscles do get quite tired quickly. is there perhaps something i'm doing wrong there?


The swim I have ahead is a 2.4 Mile open water one for Long course weekend in Wales. That 1KM in just over 30 mins is the first time i have even come close to enjoying swimming.

[944fan]

briangriffin said:

Coaching i'd had was primarily for my stroke (as i was basically starting from scratch), Had a recent lesson with the coach to concentrate on just my breathing which has worked wonders, I think it was half lack of swim fitness and half me snatching a breath. My fitness background is generally from running and combat sports so high intensity stuff. Not a lot in the way for facilities where i live so the lessons ive had are in a 10M pool so hard for the coach to get a proper judge on my breathing in his defence (there is a 25M pool but not for hire and they have their own coaches which dont give u the required 1 on 1 training)

i'm a 2 stroke breather now which seems to have worked in my most recent 1km test. i've gone from 5o mins + (obv including my stops for breathers) to just over 30 mins, still a couple of stops but the confidence is there now that i can get there with no stops with plenty of pool time.

My pace seems to be pretty consistant at around 3 mins for 100m, even if i'm pushing it or taking it easy so obv from there i guess when pushing it i'm sacrificing good technique for arm turnover. The other thing ive been told is i dont always finish my stroke completely and get the full push underwater.

Legs may be a bit sinky too i think and i do find my quad muscles do get quite tired quickly. is there perhaps something i'm doing wrong there?


The swim I have ahead is a 2.4 Mile open water one for Long course weekend in Wales. That 1KM in just over 30 mins is the first time i have even come close to enjoying swimming.

The kick should come from the hip with a slight bend in the knee. The kick is about keeping your body in line and not getting much propulsion. If your legs are tiring it could be that you are kicking too hard. Look up "side kick drill" it is a good drill to build a flutter kick.

With regards to not pushing you hand back far enough, try doing some lengths where you brush your thumb on your thigh, pushing past the hip. This will build the muscle memory to push back fully.

Sinky legs is often caused by bad head position. When you turn to breathe you need to keep you head partially in the water. Split screen google effect - one google in the water, one out. This keeps your head and body level and prevents the legs sinking. If you are breathing every 2 then any problem here is going to cause you a lot of issues.

So much of swimming is technique and small changes can make a big difference. At your speed it is all technique that is holding you back and not fitness. Once it starts coming together you will notice big differences.

Good luck with your swim. Make sure to get some practice open water swims in before hand to get used to the cold and your wetsuit.

[krallicious]

First day back in the pool for 3 months. I decided to try something instead of just swimming to a distance.

200m warm up followed by 8x100 quick, 4x50m quicker and 8x25 as fast as possible all with 30 to 40 seconds rest in between. Cool down was a leisurely 200m.

Took a long while to get back into my stroke and it fell apart a bit in the final 3 or 4 sprints but all in all not too bad. I did feel dead after the warm up though and I will feel it in the shoulders tomorrow.

[briangriffin]

944fan said:

The kick should come from the hip with a slight bend in the knee. The kick is about keeping your body in line and not getting much propulsion. If your legs are tiring it could be that you are kicking too hard. Look up "side kick drill" it is a good drill to build a flutter kick.

With regards to not pushing you hand back far enough, try doing some lengths where you brush your thumb on your thigh, pushing past the hip. This will build the muscle memory to push back fully.

Sinky legs is often caused by bad head position. When you turn to breathe you need to keep you head partially in the water. Split screen google effect - one google in the water, one out. This keeps your head and body level and prevents the legs sinking. If you are breathing every 2 then any problem here is going to cause you a lot of issues.

So much of swimming is technique and small changes can make a big difference. At your speed it is all technique that is holding you back and not fitness. Once it starts coming together you will notice big differences.

Good luck with your swim. Make sure to get some practice open water swims in before hand to get used to the cold and your wetsuit.

Thanks mate, going to try and make the pool tomorrow and practice these ready for an attempt at the mile on Thursday (mainly to win a bet with the missus lol). Hoping to see big improvements in my pace soon, i'm not looking to win medals etc with my distance swim but the less time in the water the better for me lol

[944fan]

briangriffin said:

Thanks mate, going to try and make the pool tomorrow and practice these ready for an attempt at the mile on Thursday (mainly to win a bet with the missus lol). Hoping to see big improvements in my pace soon, i'm not looking to win medals etc with my distance swim but the less time in the water the better for me lol

The more you swim the more you get a feel for the water so you will start to get faster.

Take a look at swim Smooth website, loads of info on there.

Also google skulling. Its a good drill for working on your feel and swim strength.

[Otispunkmeyer]

briangriffin said:

944fan said:

If you are having to stop every 50m but your coach doesn't think there is a problem with your technique then I would find another coach.

Firstly are you fully breathing out underwater? Failing to exhale completely when your face is in the water means you turn to breathe and have to breathe out before taking a breath, and you will never get a full breath that way.

Second, what's your arm turnover like (stroke per minute) and how often are you breathing (e.g every 2/3/4 strokes). I am very tall with long arms and my turnover is quite low, I have to breathe every two strokes or I will get out of breath quickly. If you are taking a lot of strokes between breaths you could try reducing them or focus on increasing your stroke rate.

Third. What is your pacing like? Possibly because you are already fit you are setting off too fast. Swim fitness is quite specific and there isn't much cross over from running.

Are you creating a lot of drag when you swim? Sinky legs and/or too high a head position.

How long did it take you to do 1km and what is the bis swim you have ahead of you?

Coaching i'd had was primarily for my stroke (as i was basically starting from scratch), Had a recent lesson with the coach to concentrate on just my breathing which has worked wonders, I think it was half lack of swim fitness and half me snatching a breath. My fitness background is generally from running and combat sports so high intensity stuff. Not a lot in the way for facilities where i live so the lessons ive had are in a 10M pool so hard for the coach to get a proper judge on my breathing in his defence (there is a 25M pool but not for hire and they have their own coaches which dont give u the required 1 on 1 training)

i'm a 2 stroke breather now which seems to have worked in my most recent 1km test. i've gone from 5o mins + (obv including my stops for breathers) to just over 30 mins, still a couple of stops but the confidence is there now that i can get there with no stops with plenty of pool time.

My pace seems to be pretty consistant at around 3 mins for 100m, even if i'm pushing it or taking it easy so obv from there i guess when pushing it i'm sacrificing good technique for arm turnover. The other thing ive been told is i dont always finish my stroke completely and get the full push underwater.

Legs may be a bit sinky too i think and i do find my quad muscles do get quite tired quickly. is there perhaps something i'm doing wrong there?


The swim I have ahead is a 2.4 Mile open water one for Long course weekend in Wales. That 1KM in just over 30 mins is the first time i have even come close to enjoying swimming.

Breathing 2's is generally good for distance I find. Just remember not to focus on one side. I normally switch sides each length.

If your legs are sinky and your quads burning then your kick and body position aren't right. For the former you need some good core strength and in the water you need to keep your head down. Look almost directly down. If the head comes up, the hips will sink. If you get some gym time I suggest planks is probably a good exercise to start with to get some core strength up.

I hate distance but when I do it its mostly all arms, perhaps a 2 beat kick. Mostly they're just along for the ride. They're the biggest muscles in the body, they use the most oxygen and energy so its best not to use them too hard for a distance swim. Just watch some of the greats do 1500 m or even the outdoor guys doing the 10 k. Legs just trail along behind them, there for balance. Only really come into play in the spurt to the finish. But to swim like that you need the core strength, you need the body position right.

Second thing with the kick is ankle flexibility. Absolutely crucial for good efficient non-tiring kick. I see this in all my friends who are runners and cyclists first, swimmers second. They have such stiff ankles they're not getting anything from their kick. I know in swimming they say kick with pointed toes, which is true, but its not rigidly pointed, you have to let your ankles flex at either end of the kick. Like a whipping motion.

And its small, tight kick from the hip. You dont want your legs/knees popping out of your body's cross-section. Its like sticking your hand out of the car window on the motorway.

When you say you stop, do you mean actually stopping? If so, why not try another stroke. Keep swimming, but just switch to head up breast stroke maybe? gives you a chance to breath, to look around, sight your buoys or whatever, but importantly you are still moving.


And with the pull, you want to be pulling right down past/to your hips. Not recovering the hand at or before your speedo's! That last bit of the stroke should be the quickest as well as you're essentially accelerating the hand the whole way through.

[Merp]

Finally the January keen beans are starting to slow down the rate they appear...which meant I could finally smash out a bit of fly.
Sub-30 for 50fly again!

Now I just need to enter a qualifying meet ahead of may.

[Highway Star]

Merp said:

Back in the pool last week for the first time since I broke my knee in January. Its also ~7 years since I raced.
I managed 100fly on friday afternoon, and a cruising 100f/c in 1:15ish, so not bad!

I really want to get back into racing, but there isnt a local Masters team
Alternatively Cheltenham has a reasonable Water Polo team

Gloucester Masters train in Cheltenham sometimes, or at least they used to.

I'm trying to get back in the pool after 2 years off proper competition. I'm only managing twice a week due to work and family commitments, so competition is some way off.

[boyse7en]

Did 2000m yesterday in a relatively busy pool (four people in my lane, including one bloke doing an annoyingly wandering backstroke... grrrr!!)
Now I've got myself a watch I can get some times



First 1000m in 21:05, including a couple of goggle de-fogging stops (any tips to stop fogging, or do I need new goggles?)
Second 1000m in 22:32, but that included a quick chat with a lifeguard and a change into the next lane which must have taken at least 30 seconds if not longer

Not too bad I thought.

[Otispunkmeyer]

boyse7en said:

Did 2000m yesterday in a relatively busy pool (four people in my lane, including one bloke doing an annoyingly wandering backstroke... grrrr!!)
Now I've got myself a watch I can get some times



First 1000m in 21:05, including a couple of goggle de-fogging stops (any tips to stop fogging, or do I need new goggles?)
Second 1000m in 22:32, but that included a quick chat with a lifeguard and a change into the next lane which must have taken at least 30 seconds if not longer

Not too bad I thought.

I feel sorry for you guys who have to public swim it.

I simply won't do it anymore. Its not worth it, not even in Lboro Uni where they have a vast number of lanes and even slow, medium, fast and very fast lane markers. Invariably everyones idea of very fast is wildly different to mine.

Merp ... good one on the 50 fly, sub 30 is a respectable time IMO!

My fly is weird, I can knock out a decent 50 in the 26's now and yet absolutely struggle to do a 100 m race. I don't know why, sometimes I can get to the end of a 50 fly sprint and feel great, yet if I were to try continue on for another 50, I know somewhere down the 3rd length I'd be out for the count with arms of lead!

Never been a fly swimmer though, always free and back. But started doing 50 fly after I had to do it in a masters league race and surprised myself by doing a 27 odd and winning!