The **BOXING** thread Vol 2

The **BOXING** thread Vol 2

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tuscaneer

7,768 posts

226 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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Yiliterate said:
In case anyone's interested, Mayweather-Berto is being shown on BoxNation. I think I'll be staying up for the Groves fight, then Sky+ing the rest. Try as I might, just can't summon up the enthusiasm for the main event. A pity really...
all floyd's praise in the press for pacquiao being his toughest opponent etc. etc. tells me we're getting a re-run of that fight at the back end of the year.

with his ego the size it is i just can't see him settling for equalling the much trumpeted marciano 49-0.....i read an article by someone like nigel collins or thomas hauser .... can't remember who....the article was very cynical about floyd's choice of berto when you compare rocky's final fight to the formidable archie moore.

i think floyd will want to go out at 50-0 against a proper name.and with the shadow of the shoulder injury hanging over the first fight the only name on the list for legacy is pacquiao....

shaunsmith

1,226 posts

218 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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I agree, plus co-inciding with the new arena opening he'll fight again and put his stamp on it.
All strategic when he signed deal with Showtime. I'd be suprised if Showtime have made a profit on the deal even though largest ever PPV on Pac and perhaps the Canelo fight which were both forced by Showtime. All Casino's have reaped reward. It wouldn't suprise me if he had cut from them as well....

I can't see Showtime being happy with the Berto fight, bringing Khan over would have been a big hit with PPV and especially with the influx from UK not in the numbers Hatton took albeit a substantial amount, The MGM Garden isn't even sold out. He's the winner and 'takes it all' by the looks.

I was in Vegas just before the Pac fight, speaking to quite a lot of people in depth regarding Mayweather, its all about seeing him lose and has been for a while apparently now seamingly no one can, I got the impression no one is bothered if he eclipses Marciano's record if he beats Pac, I was partailly shocked how un popular he is in the States. In addition, it truly grates Mayweather that he's not held in the same esteem and greatness as Ali, Marciano, Holyfield, both Sugar Ray's especially De La Hoya even Foreman to name a few and never will with what was said in general as its now become a near circus act not to mention his arrogance. I admire Mayweather as a boxer but can see why he's near loathed in the States.

Hell yes he'll fight Pacman again at the new arena and swerve Khan or any potent bangers and he'll always maintain he's the 'best ever'.

LastLight

1,339 posts

185 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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tuscaneer said:
the latest buys are as follows.......this must really be it for now!!...i'll shove pictures up when they arrive

max baer signed photo dated when he was heavyweight champ back in '34

sugar ray robinson signed photo

barney ross signed photo dated 50's

jersey joe walcott signed photo

mickey walker signed photo....

last night was all about photos rather than letters or gloves.....

i've really got to lay off for a bit now!!
Now I know you said you should stop(!) but there's a book you might be interested in...

"At The Fights" by Howard Schatz; a really, really top flight photographer used by all sorts of companies. He's done studies of dancers, athletes and others and spent 2006-12 immersing himself in boxing, trying to find out as much as he could from referees, promoters, writers and then boxers themselves, did a lot of really good stuff in studios with fighters in every weight division including Roy Jones, Hopkins, Tyson, Klitschko... and had unprecedented access at fights. The pictures are awesome. One especially grabs me is of the Jumbo Screen at Dallas football stadium with the ring and fight minuscule below it.

There's a You Tube lecture by him where he focusses on that for 10 mins or so.

http://www.howardschatz.com/books.php?galleryID=51

http://www.amazon.com/At-Fights-Inside-Professiona...

Or if you're interested in something more 'vintage' there might (not sure) be a few hand made platinum prints of the iconic Ali 'Fist' photo by Thomas Hoepeker from 1966, reprinted by master printer Jack Low, left?. It is great.

http://jacklowestudio.co.uk/blog/platinum-for-muha...


Fittster

20,120 posts

214 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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Even as the most casual of casuals I can't get excited by this weekend's Anthony Joshua v Gary Cornish bout.

Anyone able to put forward an argument to suggest that Cornish isn't going to be flattened within 3 rounds? The only positive thing I can see is that he's big but to me that just means he's going to make a bigger noise went he's knocked down.

FredClogs

14,041 posts

162 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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Fittster said:
Even as the most casual of casuals I can't get excited by this weekend's Anthony Joshua v Gary Cornish bout.

Anyone able to put forward an argument to suggest that Cornish isn't going to be flattened within 3 rounds? The only positive thing I can see is that he's big but to me that just means he's going to make a bigger noise went he's knocked down.
Well he's unbeaten in 21 pro fights, he's big as fk, comes from Invernes, has ginger hair and looks like a mental viking, oh and he knocks people out, big people, big eastern European people who we haven't heard of (most likely) but still, the hungarian Cornish fought last had face tattoos and Cornish never even looked scared! ;o)

Also Joshua hasn't really been tagged as a pro, and I'm not saying he's not got a good chin but his amateur record shows some stoppages, it only takes one shot in the heavyweights, I'm not betting on Cornish either but I think they'll be enough in the spectacle to grab your attention once the lights dim.

hornetrider

63,161 posts

206 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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If Cornish is 21-0 why haven't I heard of him?! (As a casual of casuals)

Fittster

20,120 posts

214 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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hornetrider said:
If Cornish is 21-0 why haven't I heard of him?! (As a casual of casuals)
The reason he's not been given a chance is the list of people who make up that 21 isn't very impressive. It's fair enough for any prospect to start off fighting less talented opposition as it lets them build up experience but there comes a point when there's a need to step up in class and Cornish hasn't really done that (No one mention Deontay Wilder at this point).

He's not knocking out a high percentage of his opponents which suggests he doesn't have huge power, so even if he gets a shot at AJ relatively untested chin it might not help.

It's possible to argue that AJ chin and stamina are unproven but his does seem to have a lot of power. He will land punches and there's nothing in Cornish's record to suggest he will be able to cope with a top class prospect hitting him with more power and accuracy than he's ever faced before.

RockyBalboa

768 posts

162 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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So it looks my suspicions were true regarding Mayweather and boxing in general:

- Wide spreading doping.
- USADA in their pockets.
- Mayweather’s 'A' sample had tested positive three times and, after each positive test, USADA had given Floyd an inadvertent use waiver.
- Pacquiao's team got wind of the above (during the time Mayweather was hurling accusations of cheating a Paquiao and was sued for it) and Mayweather's settlement provided to Pacquiao's team was 'substantially more' than Pacquiao’s attorneys had expected it would be.
- USADA visited Mayweather's home before he Pacquiao fight to conduct a test and found ound evidence of an IV being administered to Mayweather.
- Mayweather’s medical team told its agents that the IV was administered to address concerns related to dehydration.
- Mayweather’s medical team also told the collection agents that the IV consisted of two separate mixes. The first was a mixture of 250 milliliters of saline and multi-vitamins. The second was a 500-milliliter mixture of saline and Vitamin C. Seven hundred and fifty milliliters equals 25.361 ounces, an amount equal to roughly 16 percent of the blood normally present in an average adult male.
- 2015 WADA 'Prohibited Substances and Methods List' states, “Intravenous infusions and/or injections of more than 50 ml per 6 hour period are prohibited."
- This prohibition is in effect at all times that the athlete is subject to testing. It exists because, in addition to being administered for the purpose of adding specific substances to a person’s body, an IV infusion can dilute or mask the presence of another substance that is already in the recipient’s system or might be added to it in the near future.

Full article:

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2015/9/9/9271811/...

Robatr0n

12,362 posts

217 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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You just posted a Thomas Hauser article as evidence? Brilliant.

I'll be the first one to berate Mayweather if he has ever cheated. I think it's disgusting that someone would unlawfully try to gain an unfair advantage over their fellow sportsmen, especially in a sport as brutal as boxing.

Let's wait for the actual reports to come through shall we?

Almost the same st was being posted about Pacquiao and ultimately it came to nothing. Unless someone can actually release these fails tests then there isn't any proof or evidence to suggest wrong doing, just hearsay.

RockyBalboa

768 posts

162 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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It's a Hauser article but the content is what is important and lot of the information posted regarding other fighters has long been proven. What of the content do you dispute?

FredClogs

14,041 posts

162 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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The only allegation seems to be that he used an IV bag to re-hydrate after the weigh in. Completely standard practice. The UFC has just banned IV bags for re-hydration due to the points you make - that the process of using one can mask the use of other things, but boxing still allows it. The other points seem to be muck racking.

I'm as anti cheating as anyone but like this thing with Paula Radcliffe - there is quite often complex biological processes going on in the bodies of high level athletes, of which I'm no expert, and you have to look and understand it all in context (which I don't) and trust the systems and professionals involved in the testing to make the correct calls (which is questionable) but singling people out seems to have done nothing to stop cheating in sport and I don't really see why Mayweather would be under more suspicion than anyone else.

RockyBalboa

768 posts

162 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
quotequote all
Perhaps because Mayweather was, in recent times, hurling accusations at Pacquiao and further, claim to be 'cleaning up the sport'.

USADA now state:

"Although Mr. Mayweather's application was not approved until after his fight with Mr. Pacquiao and all tests results were reported, Mr. Mayweather did disclose the infusion to USADA in advance of the IV being administered to him."

If you read the article, Victor Conte (formely of BALCO) states that rehydration is a poor excuse as:

1. Mayweather didn't need cut a lot of weight.
2. The content/mix of the IV was not even good for rehydration as compared to alternatives.

However, what this and such mixes are good at as masking PED use.

Robatr0n

12,362 posts

217 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
quotequote all
RockyBalboa said:
It's a Hauser article but the content is what is important and lot of the information posted regarding other fighters has long been proven. What of the content do you dispute?
99% of that article is speculation.

Maybe he did use IV to rehydrate (the Nevada state commission's paperwork does indeed indicate that he did) but why does that mean he did that to mask PEDs? Maybe he was sick and needed help rehydrating. I genuinely don't have a clue but one thing I can tell you for certain is that I won't believe a word of it until it comes from an official source.

If all they have is the fact that he used IV to rehydrate then this will be going nowhere fast as it's not illegal to do that regardless of whether it's an elaborate cover up or not.

Have a look at some previous articles that Hauser has published about fighters including his past articles on Pacquiao and Mayweather.


Yiliterate

3,786 posts

207 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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Amirhussain

11,489 posts

164 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
quotequote all
tuscaneer said:
Yiliterate said:
In case anyone's interested, Mayweather-Berto is being shown on BoxNation. I think I'll be staying up for the Groves fight, then Sky+ing the rest. Try as I might, just can't summon up the enthusiasm for the main event. A pity really...
all floyd's praise in the press for pacquiao being his toughest opponent etc. etc. tells me we're getting a re-run of that fight at the back end of the year.

with his ego the size it is i just can't see him settling for equalling the much trumpeted marciano 49-0.....i read an article by someone like nigel collins or thomas hauser .... can't remember who....the article was very cynical about floyd's choice of berto when you compare rocky's final fight to the formidable archie moore.

i think floyd will want to go out at 50-0 against a proper name.and with the shadow of the shoulder injury hanging over the first fight the only name on the list for legacy is pacquiao....
Struggling to get excited for Mayweather v Berto, and I read that tickets aren't selling as hot as expected. Just such a 'meh' opponent. A fight against Khan would've generated so much more hype and excitement.

I reckon Mayweather- Paqman rematch will happen next year. Only if they put the 'politics' aside and had fought in 2008-2011ishh time.

IainT V6

886 posts

177 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
quotequote all
Fittster said:
hornetrider said:
If Cornish is 21-0 why haven't I heard of him?! (As a casual of casuals)
The reason he's not been given a chance is the list of people who make up that 21 isn't very impressive. It's fair enough for any prospect to start off fighting less talented opposition as it lets them build up experience but there comes a point when there's a need to step up in class and Cornish hasn't really done that (No one mention Deontay Wilder at this point).

He's not knocking out a high percentage of his opponents which suggests he doesn't have huge power, so even if he gets a shot at AJ relatively untested chin it might not help.

It's possible to argue that AJ chin and stamina are unproven but his does seem to have a lot of power. He will land punches and there's nothing in Cornish's record to suggest he will be able to cope with a top class prospect hitting him with more power and accuracy than he's ever faced before.
Head says Joshua, heart says Cornish - 'mon The Highlander! At heavyweight there is always a chance of either fighter detonating a bomb on the sweet spot...

RockyBalboa

768 posts

162 months

Friday 11th September 2015
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Robatr0n said:
RockyBalboa said:
It's a Hauser article but the content is what is important and lot of the information posted regarding other fighters has long been proven. What of the content do you dispute?
99% of that article is speculation.

Maybe he did use IV to rehydrate (the Nevada state commission's paperwork does indeed indicate that he did) but why does that mean he did that to mask PEDs? Maybe he was sick and needed help rehydrating. I genuinely don't have a clue but one thing I can tell you for certain is that I won't believe a word of it until it comes from an official source.

If all they have is the fact that he used IV to rehydrate then this will be going nowhere fast as it's not illegal to do that regardless of whether it's an elaborate cover up or not.

Have a look at some previous articles that Hauser has published about fighters including his past articles on Pacquiao and Mayweather.
Quite how you can say 99% of the article is speculation when it's not only about Mayweather but much proven information which has already been published in the past is beyond me. E.g. the other fighters mentioned have either been convicted for PED use or named (Moseley, Holyfield) in conjunction with PED investigations conducted by federal law enforcement authorities.

As for Mayweather:

Rehydrating when he doesn't have to lose virtually any weight (he walks around circa 150 lbs)? Using the combination of fluids detailed which are not particularly effective for rehydration compared to what else is available but are effective for masking PED use (Lance Armstrong did this too didn't he?). I smell a rat.

More from Examiner.com:

What's apparent now, in light of the fact that he absolutely took an intravenous injection of saline and vitamins that was banned under WADA guidelines while going out of his way to insist Pacquiao not be allowed an injection of Toradol on a shoulder he knew was injured.

No matter what side of the equation you stand on with respect to the severity of Pacquiao's injury, he had a very real surgical procedure performed by Dr. ElAttarche following the fight and fought Mayweather without any synthetic aids. What's more, is Mayweather decided to fight a safety first bout (earning record-breaking "Money") while caring not for your entertainment. He robbed a Brinks truck under the bright lights of Vegas, despite knowing that it was he who had an unfair advantage against a smaller man, and one that he knew was at a disadvantage. So much for a 'level playing field' and 'fair play' from Floyd, a fighter of such talent that he really didn't have to resort to such an underhanded tactic.

What he'll do now is call into question just how honest he's been with respect to PED use (something that he's been linked to, and was central to his settlement loss to Pacquiao in court for defamation per Dan Rafael of ESPN in 2012) or other improprieties, on the eve of what's supposed to be the 49th and final fight of his career.

Mayweather, because of his preeminent sport in the sport, has been allowed to fight exclusively in Las Vegas on his terms, where he uses Xylocaine on his hands before every fight. The reason this is a big deal is because Xylocaine is a banned substance in every state except Nevada. Assuming (there's that word again) that this isn't the first time Floyd had these type of injections, in addition to Xylocaine use, and Floyd Maywether is now going Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong on opponents in the ring.

But the most foul infraction of all in this saga for Mayweather, is how corruptly complicit his hand picked anti-doping agency was in helping him (and there's no other word for this) "cheat" Pacquiao and Top Rank. He arrogantly had the illegal intravenous injections (which WADA strictly prohibits within the timeframe in which Mayweather had this done, primarily, because it can mask the presence of other banned substances) done in the comfort of his home, and knew he was breaking the rules.

USADA, somehow, granted Mayweather an exception for the injections on May 19, nearly 3 weeks after the fight for the injections, citing the fighter's need to recover from dehydration. Not only is that preposterous and something that any fighter can contend, but USADA has no authority to grant an "exception" of this kind. Bob Bennett, executive directive for the Nevada State Athletic Commision, had this to say in response to Thomas Hauser's very damaging report for SB Nation.

"The TUE [therapeutic use exemption] for Mayweather's IV -- and the IV was administered at Floyd's house, not in a medical facility, and wasn't brought to our attention at the time -- was totally unacceptable," Bennett is quoted as saying in the report. "I've made it clear to [USADA CEO] Travis Tygart that this should not happen again. We have the sole authority to grant any and all TUEs in the state of Nevada. USADA is a drug-testing agency. USADA should not be granting waivers and exemptions. Not in this state. We are less than pleased that USADA acted the way it did."

RockyBalboa

768 posts

162 months

Friday 11th September 2015
quotequote all
IainT V6 said:
Fittster said:
hornetrider said:
If Cornish is 21-0 why haven't I heard of him?! (As a casual of casuals)
The reason he's not been given a chance is the list of people who make up that 21 isn't very impressive. It's fair enough for any prospect to start off fighting less talented opposition as it lets them build up experience but there comes a point when there's a need to step up in class and Cornish hasn't really done that (No one mention Deontay Wilder at this point).

He's not knocking out a high percentage of his opponents which suggests he doesn't have huge power, so even if he gets a shot at AJ relatively untested chin it might not help.

It's possible to argue that AJ chin and stamina are unproven but his does seem to have a lot of power. He will land punches and there's nothing in Cornish's record to suggest he will be able to cope with a top class prospect hitting him with more power and accuracy than he's ever faced before.
Head says Joshua, heart says Cornish - 'mon The Highlander! At heavyweight there is always a chance of either fighter detonating a bomb on the sweet spot...
Personally, I've not seen much in Cornish to say he can go very far. Whilst Joshua is also relatively untested as a pro, his skill set seems of a much higher level, as well as his power. Joshua really should finish this within 3 if he is serious.

Edited by RockyBalboa on Friday 11th September 00:22

Robatr0n

12,362 posts

217 months

Friday 11th September 2015
quotequote all
RockyBalboa said:
Quite how you can say 99% of the article is speculation when it's not only about Mayweather but much proven information which has already been published in the past is beyond me. E.g. the other fighters mentioned have either been convicted for PED use or named (Moseley, Holyfield) in conjunction with PED investigations conducted by federal law enforcement authorities.

As for Mayweather:

Rehydrating when he doesn't have to lose virtually any weight (he walks around circa 150 lbs)? Using the combination of fluids detailed which are not particularly effective for rehydration compared to what else is available but are effective for masking PED use (Lance Armstrong did this too didn't he?). I smell a rat.

More from Examiner.com:

What's apparent now, in light of the fact that he absolutely took an intravenous injection of saline and vitamins that was banned under WADA guidelines while going out of his way to insist Pacquiao not be allowed an injection of Toradol on a shoulder he knew was injured.

No matter what side of the equation you stand on with respect to the severity of Pacquiao's injury, he had a very real surgical procedure performed by Dr. ElAttarche following the fight and fought Mayweather without any synthetic aids. What's more, is Mayweather decided to fight a safety first bout (earning record-breaking "Money") while caring not for your entertainment. He robbed a Brinks truck under the bright lights of Vegas, despite knowing that it was he who had an unfair advantage against a smaller man, and one that he knew was at a disadvantage. So much for a 'level playing field' and 'fair play' from Floyd, a fighter of such talent that he really didn't have to resort to such an underhanded tactic.

What he'll do now is call into question just how honest he's been with respect to PED use (something that he's been linked to, and was central to his settlement loss to Pacquiao in court for defamation per Dan Rafael of ESPN in 2012) or other improprieties, on the eve of what's supposed to be the 49th and final fight of his career.

Mayweather, because of his preeminent sport in the sport, has been allowed to fight exclusively in Las Vegas on his terms, where he uses Xylocaine on his hands before every fight. The reason this is a big deal is because Xylocaine is a banned substance in every state except Nevada. Assuming (there's that word again) that this isn't the first time Floyd had these type of injections, in addition to Xylocaine use, and Floyd Maywether is now going Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong on opponents in the ring.

But the most foul infraction of all in this saga for Mayweather, is how corruptly complicit his hand picked anti-doping agency was in helping him (and there's no other word for this) "cheat" Pacquiao and Top Rank. He arrogantly had the illegal intravenous injections (which WADA strictly prohibits within the timeframe in which Mayweather had this done, primarily, because it can mask the presence of other banned substances) done in the comfort of his home, and knew he was breaking the rules.

USADA, somehow, granted Mayweather an exception for the injections on May 19, nearly 3 weeks after the fight for the injections, citing the fighter's need to recover from dehydration. Not only is that preposterous and something that any fighter can contend, but USADA has no authority to grant an "exception" of this kind. Bob Bennett, executive directive for the Nevada State Athletic Commision, had this to say in response to Thomas Hauser's very damaging report for SB Nation.

"The TUE [therapeutic use exemption] for Mayweather's IV -- and the IV was administered at Floyd's house, not in a medical facility, and wasn't brought to our attention at the time -- was totally unacceptable," Bennett is quoted as saying in the report. "I've made it clear to [USADA CEO] Travis Tygart that this should not happen again. We have the sole authority to grant any and all TUEs in the state of Nevada. USADA is a drug-testing agency. USADA should not be granting waivers and exemptions. Not in this state. We are less than pleased that USADA acted the way it did."
Again, you're taking one side of the story (from Mr Hauser at that!) and running with it. You, me and anyone else interested in this whole saga will not have a clue what's going on until it's properly investigated. That's the only fact in all this.

As for what side of the equation I fall in to, it's neither Mayweather nor Pacquiao. I'm a fan of the sport and a huge fan of both fighters which means you'll never see me going all fanboyish on them.

As previously mentioned, if he has cheated to gain an unfair advantage I'd be disgusted.

Yiliterate

3,786 posts

207 months

Friday 11th September 2015
quotequote all
Now including the response from Hauser to the rebuttal from USADA:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/21415...
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