The **BOXING** thread Vol 2
Discussion
Whyte is getting absolutely f
ked up on 12th December. I saw nothing convincing from him, he was easy to hit although he clearly has a sting in his punches. AJ will make very short work of Whyte.
Whyte also wants to have that self belief, but he can't look at people when he talks. I work with someone like that and it drives me nuts! He will be completely forgotten at the end of this year, no matter how much he carries on bad-mouthing Joshua.
Gutted for Groves. Hard to see where he goes from here
ked up on 12th December. I saw nothing convincing from him, he was easy to hit although he clearly has a sting in his punches. AJ will make very short work of Whyte.Whyte also wants to have that self belief, but he can't look at people when he talks. I work with someone like that and it drives me nuts! He will be completely forgotten at the end of this year, no matter how much he carries on bad-mouthing Joshua.
Gutted for Groves. Hard to see where he goes from here
g4ry13 said:
Mayweather is such a coward, it's embarrassing really. Records mean nothing when you pick weak fighters and dodge the big fights.
Don't be so bloody naive. His wins against some very big names suggests that he does take on the best around. To give a few examples:De La Hoya- won the title in this fight against someone largely considered to be one of the top p4p fighters at the time. This was also before Pacquaio gave De La Hoya a pasting.
Hatton- undefeated at the time and was a true test for Mayweather
Judah- a former undisputed champion and IBF belt holder at the time. This was also 5 years before Khan beat a Judah in decline.
Mosley- yes, a bit beyond his best but still a very tricky opponent
Alvarez- another undefeated fighter. Made him look s
t!Then you need to recall that he did fight Pacman. He made it look very very easy.
Love him or hate him, Mayweather IS one of the best ever. I personally am not a big fan of his, but certainly appreciate how good he is. He has a very unique style (and can mix it up) and is a defensive master; he doesn't win people over as he isn't an aggressive fighter (though he was in his earlier years). His personality doesn't help either.
g4ry13 said:
Mayweather is such a coward, it's embarrassing really. Records mean nothing when you pick weak fighters and dodge the big fights.
I don't think that is a very fair assessment of someone who has had a stellar career. It isn't like he has fought a long line of nobodies. De La Hoya, Saul Alvarez, Miguel Cotto, Marquez, Gatti, Chavez and Pacman. Fair enough the whole will he/won't he fight with Pacman was a joke that it took so long to happen and deprived us a fight 4 years earlier when the fighters were a bit younger and Pacman was certainly a bit better.
Aside from the obvious (Khan) he hasn't really ducked out of a fight with anyone that might give him a problem.
He lives the life, prepares well for his fights and his team do a whole tonne of homework on his opponents. Better preparation and a better fighter so he deserves all the plaudits.
Doesn't necessarily mean a FMJ fight is going to set the world alight though.
Edited by MitchmachineUAE on Sunday 13th September 10:27
StuTheGrouch said:
Whyte is getting absolutely fked up on 12th December. I saw nothing convincing from him, he was easy to hit although he clearly has a sting in his punches. AJ will make very short work of Whyte.
Whyte also wants to have that self belief, but he can't look at people when he talks. I work with someone like that and it drives me nuts! He will be completely forgotten at the end of this year, no matter how much he carries on bad-mouthing Joshua.
Gutted for Groves. Hard to see where he goes from here
Whyte was too easy to be hit and unless he catches AJ first their is only one winner. Hopefully that means he will fight Fury after that. He certainly needs to step it up, fighting no hopers is not really doing him justice apart from inflating his win record. ked up on 12th December. I saw nothing convincing from him, he was easy to hit although he clearly has a sting in his punches. AJ will make very short work of Whyte.Whyte also wants to have that self belief, but he can't look at people when he talks. I work with someone like that and it drives me nuts! He will be completely forgotten at the end of this year, no matter how much he carries on bad-mouthing Joshua.
Gutted for Groves. Hard to see where he goes from here
epom said:
I assume AJ is due a fight against someone that is relatively coherent In the ring? Don't get me wrong I'm not doubting his ability, however destroying the terrible standard of opponent being hand picked for him at the moment does nothing for him or for the sport of boxing.
12th Dec against someone called Dillian Whyte. On the positive side Whyte beat AJ as an amateur and is unbeaten since turning pro. On the negative side the people he's built his record against are no better than those faced by Cornish.Video of the Whyte v AJ fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDSH8cXtFRQ
They are both very raw when that fight took place. The promoters would like it to be thought of as a grudge match, although I don't really buy it. Looks like another pretty poor opponent.
Until AJ fights opponents with better track records its going to be difficult to say how much of the hype is justified.
Well, the Mayweather-Berto fight ended up being as one-sided as most were expecting, but at least Berto went in with some ambition and the aim of bringing something to the contest other than just his scalp. Consequently, it ended up being a watchable match-up, even if the result was never in doubt. It won't live long in the memory but that seemed to be the intention all along; from choice of opponent to the low-key ring entrances, etc. Every indication was there that this won't be Mayweather's final fight, to the surprise of nobody...!
On to Jack-Groves. Firstly, Jack deserves a lot of credit for the way he performed. Far from being 'extremely limited' as several in the media were reporting him (inc. Carl Froch), he actually looked a slick, well-schooled fighter who deserved to be at that level. Certainly far too much was made of the one-round KO that stains his record and, during the fight, he took some shots from Groves that would have shown up any vulnerability in that regard. As such, that KO looks like one of those freak occurrences that can happen in boxing. That said, Jack was somewhat one-paced; not slow, but there were a few times where Groves was struggling and you felt if Jack could go through the gears, he'd be able to take real command of the fight...but he didn't. However, all things considered, losing on a split in Jack's (adopted) home town - especially when you can make a well-reasoned case that he acually won it - is by no means an embarrassment or a disaster...
...however, it certainly isn't good news for Groves. As well as Jack did, I'd still consider him the weakest of the four proper champions; if Groves couldn't take the title off Jack, it's difficult to make a case for him doing so against DeGale, Abraham and especially not Ward. Also, though I didn't agree with the decision, there wasn't anything controversial about it so no reason for the WBC to grant an immediate rematch, and while it was a really engaging technical contest, you weren't left with a feeling that a rematch would be huge, so not much reason for Jack to grant Groves a voluntary defence either.
The issue as I see it for Groves is he's starting to become a bit...one-dimensional. Not that he's just some kind of crude slugger or anything, but his style seems geared up to make the most of his power - half-crouch, crisp stinging jabs, spotting the gaps and shooting through that fast right hand, feints, head movement, etc. When it works, spectacular...first seven rounds of Froch-Groves I as a prime example. However, it is undoubtedly an energy-sapping style. Despite what some say, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Groves' fitness/stamina per se; it's just the style he fights uses up a huge amount of energy, so inevitably he starts gassing around the two-thirds distance if he hasn't closed the show before then. And that's a big issue for Groves and his aim of becoming a world champion. When you're in with people who aren't there for the taking, you're probably going to need to have more than one way to win a fight at your disposal. The thing is, as seen with the fights against DeGale and Glen Johnson, even though he was still learning his trade at that stage, Groves was developing that; he was starting to look like a multi-dimensional fighter who could adapt his style according the needs of the fight and the gameplan.
All in all, this leads me to think that if he's going to make that final step and fulfil his potential, he needs to change his training set-up. I don't actually like saying that because I really think a lot of Paddy Fitzpatrick; of what I've seen of him, I think the way he conducts himself is spot-on and is always worth listening to when interviewed, and clearly the two are close. However, I'm pretty confident that if Groves had been with Adam Booth, he'd now be holding the WBC belt. That's not only based on how he was developing under Booth, but the way that Andy Lee has stepped up from contender to champion since linking with Booth. And, looking elsewhere, I think they'd come up with a way of beating Arthur Abraham, and an evens chance against DeGale, which I don't think he'd have right now. I don't know what the situation is between the two but from what was said around the time of the split, I'd be surprised if a reconciliation was in pipeline any time soon, but there are other possibilities (for example, if Ward moves up to Light-Heavy, maybe working with Virgil Hunter). I just have this nagging feeling that Groves has plateaued and until that's addressed, he'll continue to come up fractionally short at the very highest level...
On to Jack-Groves. Firstly, Jack deserves a lot of credit for the way he performed. Far from being 'extremely limited' as several in the media were reporting him (inc. Carl Froch), he actually looked a slick, well-schooled fighter who deserved to be at that level. Certainly far too much was made of the one-round KO that stains his record and, during the fight, he took some shots from Groves that would have shown up any vulnerability in that regard. As such, that KO looks like one of those freak occurrences that can happen in boxing. That said, Jack was somewhat one-paced; not slow, but there were a few times where Groves was struggling and you felt if Jack could go through the gears, he'd be able to take real command of the fight...but he didn't. However, all things considered, losing on a split in Jack's (adopted) home town - especially when you can make a well-reasoned case that he acually won it - is by no means an embarrassment or a disaster...
...however, it certainly isn't good news for Groves. As well as Jack did, I'd still consider him the weakest of the four proper champions; if Groves couldn't take the title off Jack, it's difficult to make a case for him doing so against DeGale, Abraham and especially not Ward. Also, though I didn't agree with the decision, there wasn't anything controversial about it so no reason for the WBC to grant an immediate rematch, and while it was a really engaging technical contest, you weren't left with a feeling that a rematch would be huge, so not much reason for Jack to grant Groves a voluntary defence either.
The issue as I see it for Groves is he's starting to become a bit...one-dimensional. Not that he's just some kind of crude slugger or anything, but his style seems geared up to make the most of his power - half-crouch, crisp stinging jabs, spotting the gaps and shooting through that fast right hand, feints, head movement, etc. When it works, spectacular...first seven rounds of Froch-Groves I as a prime example. However, it is undoubtedly an energy-sapping style. Despite what some say, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with Groves' fitness/stamina per se; it's just the style he fights uses up a huge amount of energy, so inevitably he starts gassing around the two-thirds distance if he hasn't closed the show before then. And that's a big issue for Groves and his aim of becoming a world champion. When you're in with people who aren't there for the taking, you're probably going to need to have more than one way to win a fight at your disposal. The thing is, as seen with the fights against DeGale and Glen Johnson, even though he was still learning his trade at that stage, Groves was developing that; he was starting to look like a multi-dimensional fighter who could adapt his style according the needs of the fight and the gameplan.
All in all, this leads me to think that if he's going to make that final step and fulfil his potential, he needs to change his training set-up. I don't actually like saying that because I really think a lot of Paddy Fitzpatrick; of what I've seen of him, I think the way he conducts himself is spot-on and is always worth listening to when interviewed, and clearly the two are close. However, I'm pretty confident that if Groves had been with Adam Booth, he'd now be holding the WBC belt. That's not only based on how he was developing under Booth, but the way that Andy Lee has stepped up from contender to champion since linking with Booth. And, looking elsewhere, I think they'd come up with a way of beating Arthur Abraham, and an evens chance against DeGale, which I don't think he'd have right now. I don't know what the situation is between the two but from what was said around the time of the split, I'd be surprised if a reconciliation was in pipeline any time soon, but there are other possibilities (for example, if Ward moves up to Light-Heavy, maybe working with Virgil Hunter). I just have this nagging feeling that Groves has plateaued and until that's addressed, he'll continue to come up fractionally short at the very highest level...
Edited by Yiliterate on Monday 14th September 09:59
^ I agree, Carl Froch said after Groves fight with Rebrasse that Groves had been Cobra'd and would never be the same again (in front or 80,000 people in Wmebley etc.. etc...). I wasn't sure as Rebrasee looked hard, he is hard, but Callum Smith made much easier work of Rebrasse than Groves did - I was never a great Groves fan, I don't like his personality but like Naseem did(pictured above fat and proud) if you rely on loading up the big shots and the fast head movement to get you out of trouble you better know when it's time to stop because once they're gone all the training in the world won't bring them back and it's very rare you see a boxer change his modus operandi mid career.
That said I've not actually seen the Groves/Jack match yet, I'll watch it tonight ;o)
That said I've not actually seen the Groves/Jack match yet, I'll watch it tonight ;o)
FredClogs said:
^ I agree, Carl Froch said after Groves fight with Rebrasse that Groves had been Cobra'd and would never be the same again (in front or 80,000 people in Wmebley etc.. etc...). I wasn't sure as Rebrasee looked hard, he is hard, but Callum Smith made much easier work of Rebrasse than Groves did - I was never a great Groves fan, I don't like his personality but like Naseem did(pictured above fat and proud) if you rely on loading up the big shots and the fast head movement to get you out of trouble you better know when it's time to stop because once they're gone all the training in the world won't bring them back and it's very rare you see a boxer change his modus operandi mid career.
That said I've not actually seen the Groves/Jack match yet, I'll watch it tonight ;o)
Enjoy - like I said, it's actually a pretty engaging contest!That said I've not actually seen the Groves/Jack match yet, I'll watch it tonight ;o)
The Rebrasse situation was an interest one. My impression was the Smith fight actually clawed back a bit of credit for Groves. There seemed to be a bit of an expectation that Smith would basically dismantle Rebrasse; so really pushing the case that Smith was already at - or maybe even a step beyond - Groves given Groves looked less than stellar against Rebrasse. In the end, it seemed to be understood that Rebrasse really was no mug and, all things considered, a UD against him was nothing to be ashamed of!
Re: Groves, I don't think he needs to totally ditch the way he fights; just have a bit more savvy when it starts to become clear that it's going to be an attritional fight and likely to go the distance. A good example is someone like Felix Sturm - he has the capability of stepping it up and looking for the stoppage (not that he's a renowned KO artist) if he feels it's there - i.e. the Barker fight - but he also expert at taking his foot of the gas and get a breather...and, most importantly, how to keep giving the impression he's winning the rounds when doing so! He's the sort of figther who can do next-to-nothing for two minutes out of the three, every round, and still get a 120-108 in his favour!
Groves showed that adaptability to a degree with Glen Johnson. Although Johnson offered little in the way of offence, as usual it would have taken a sledgehammer to put him down and he continued to come forward and pressure Groves throughout the fight. Groves (Booth) figured out the lie of the land quite early and rather than continuing to try and blast Johnson out of there and run the risk of gassing, he looked to load up and take the opportunities when they presented themselves but overall paced the attacks so as to be able to last the full twelve. So he has shown it, but maybe isn't something he hasn't placed a lot of focus on in terms of developing over the last couple of years; hence my thinking that the way forward may lie in trying a different trainer (though clearly no guarantee of success)...
Fittster said:
epom said:
I assume AJ is due a fight against someone that is relatively coherent In the ring? Don't get me wrong I'm not doubting his ability, however destroying the terrible standard of opponent being hand picked for him at the moment does nothing for him or for the sport of boxing.
12th Dec against someone called Dillian Whyte. On the positive side Whyte beat AJ as an amateur and is unbeaten since turning pro. On the negative side the people he's built his record against are no better than those faced by Cornish.Video of the Whyte v AJ fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDSH8cXtFRQ
They are both very raw when that fight took place. The promoters would like it to be thought of as a grudge match, although I don't really buy it. Looks like another pretty poor opponent.
Until AJ fights opponents with better track records its going to be difficult to say how much of the hype is justified.
AJ looks tougher than Price did but just don't know what his chin is like and potentially Whyte or Fury could expose that, and actually take a few shots themselves. Cornish was hyped up to be a real test for AJ but is just another hand picked fighter than AJ could easily beat.
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