The **BOXING** thread Vol 2
Discussion
andburg said:
Nope..first one wasn't great, second I fear will be more dull.
Fury is claiming hes working out 3-4 times a day in a sweatsuit and has already lost a stone in 9 days.
What a great example to set to the youngsters, you don't need to stay in shape just dehydrate yourself at the start of training and then steady off from there.
He obviously took his training tips from Ricky Hatton, it will catch up with him and he'll not see it coming.
To be fair I think Ricky Hatton's weight cuts were pretty extreme and part of his mental preparation, Fury doesn't have to cut weight, his weight is only ever talked about as a measure of where his cardio might be at and what training he's been doing, I saw a video the other day of him on the floor to ceiling ball bag (pretty sure that's not the technical term for that piece or equipment!) and he claimed to have done 12 rounds, he was dancing like a butterfly and jabbing like a jabby thing...Fury is claiming hes working out 3-4 times a day in a sweatsuit and has already lost a stone in 9 days.
What a great example to set to the youngsters, you don't need to stay in shape just dehydrate yourself at the start of training and then steady off from there.
He obviously took his training tips from Ricky Hatton, it will catch up with him and he'll not see it coming.
Yiliterate said:
Fittster said:
FredClogs said:
Fittster said:
WBC have said if Alvarez doesn't fight GGG after Khan they will strip him of this belt. I think he'll give up the belt rather than get in the ring with GGG at 160.
We'll have to wait and see, you don't see many Mexican fighters backing down and whilst Alvarez might not look like you're average poor Mexican his back story belies his freckly good looks, he turned pro at 15 - he's not short on cojones, whether it makes sense for him financially - who knows?"If he wants to fight with me, let him come down to 155 and I'll fight him whatever day he wants."
"At this moment, my body isn't ready for 160 pounds. Maybe 1 or 2 more years I'll be ready for 160, I don't know, but I'd be delighted to fight someone like Gennady. He's a great fighter and I think it would be a great fight. I'd be delighted to get him in a fight."
Ahh, tough luck. The limit is 160, fight at 160 or give up the belt.
Golovkin refuses to budge from 160lbs for exactly the same reason Alvarez is keen on 155lbs...it's where each fighter feels they have the greatest advantage. As I've said before on here, Golovkin is perfectly within his right to do that, but what are the consequences of doing so? Were Alvarez (assuming he beats Khan) to stick to his guns, he is forced to vacate his WBC belt, which is then handed to Golovkin. So Golovkin picks up another title, but misses out on a career-defining fight (along with the biggest pay-day of his career by quite some margin), leaving him with little else on the horizon beyond a succession of Dominic Wade-a-like mandatory defences. Sure, he might be able to persuade Billy Joe Saunders or Chris Eubank to fight him, but that would still be small-fry compared to a fight with Alvarez, both in status and financial reward...and who's to say that either of those two wouldn't suddenly remember they actually have far more important (read 'sensible from a risk-reward perspective') business trying to shove their fists down James DeGale's throat up at Super-Middle?
Alvarez, on the other hand, loses his WBC belt but will never lose the status of having been WBC Middleweight champion of the world. Although he would have missed the opportunity for a massive fight against Golovkin, there are still plenty of other huge fights in the pipeline for him, particularly against other big-name Welterweights willing to follow Khan's lead. For Alvarez, the future remains bright indeed...
Edited by Yiliterate on Monday 25th April 22:26
Bring on the clowns said:
Maybe because Alvarez is one of the masters at cutting then regaining weight come ring time and as it's well known the not yet ready for 160lb sees him called for the BS it clearly is. Can't blame him for wanting to manipulate things to get an advantage, but it is still a crock full of it...
Once again, that's not really the point I was making. What I'm highlighting is the double standards, as I see it, that are being applied to the two fighters. Alvarez is getting slaughtered in some quarters for not immediately agreeing to go up from 155lbs because he's 'big' for a Light-Middleweight (despite continually making 154/155lbs). Meanwhile, Golovkin is a relatively small Middleweight - by way of illustration, he actually weighed in at 159lbs for last weekend's fight and once again looking comfortable in doing so - yet he point-blank refuses to make the fight at anything other than 160lbs and nobody even bats an eyelid. Both fighters have the potential to compromise on weight but so far neither has - apparently that makes one of them a coward, chicken-s
t and another word beginning with 'c'; the other smells of roses...Edited by Yiliterate on Wednesday 27th April 21:50
Turquoise said:
GGG holds more belts so does that not give him the right to call the shots?
I'm a boxing fan, not an expert, so it's a genuine question.
And not an unreasonable one either, but the answer is no, not for that reason...but in another way, yes, sort of!I'm a boxing fan, not an expert, so it's a genuine question.
Okay, under normal circumstances a unification fight would be a voluntary defence for both fighters, meaning the sanctioning bodies of the two champions aren't obliging their fighters to take the fight. As such, it is up to the two parties to come to their own agreement. If one holds two belts and the other holds one, that might have some sway in the negotiations, but equally may have no bearing at all. For example, when Mayweather fought Pacquiao, Mayweather held two belts and Pacquiao held one. Were the distribution of belts reversed, would the respective purses have similarly been reversed?! Ha...not a snowball's!!!
However, where this particular situation is slightly different is that as well as being the WBA and IBF champion, Golovkin is also the interim WBC champion. As such, the WBC are obliging Alvarez (or Khan, should he win on 7th May) to fight Golovkin because they only want one champion. In itself, that does give Golovkin the right to call the shots to some extent, at least on the issue of weight. Essentially, Golovkin can stand his ground on the fight being at the full Middleweight limit of 160lbs because the WBC won't oblige him to do otherwise. If Alvarez (or Khan) then refuse to fight at that weight, they will be stripped of the title and Golovkin gets upgraded to full champion (I don't think the WBC would even make him fight for the vacant belt).
However, as I have argued on here before, I think Golovkin may be more motivated for that fight to go ahead than Alvarez (or Khan), so may ultimately be willing to forego the right to force the issue on weight, despite not being under any obligation to do so, in order to secure the fight...
Edited by Yiliterate on Wednesday 27th April 23:27
i'm not a fan of all this catchweight stuff.....
oh for the days of henry armstrong....when there were only 8 weight divisions (not fking 200 like today!) he managed to become featherweight champ, then welterweight champ and finally back down to lightweight to wwin the belt there.....and held all 3 titles AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
when he beat the legendary barney ross for the welter belt he was giving away 9lb.
if you're good enough, then you're big enough.
oh for the days of henry armstrong....when there were only 8 weight divisions (not f
king 200 like today!) he managed to become featherweight champ, then welterweight champ and finally back down to lightweight to wwin the belt there.....and held all 3 titles AT THE SAME TIME!!!!when he beat the legendary barney ross for the welter belt he was giving away 9lb.
if you're good enough, then you're big enough.
Alverez (if he overcomes Khan) needs to do GGG's bidding then or been seen as a quitter.
GGG has the belts and every right to stand his ground with nothing to lose. He gets the fight at 160 or he gets the belt anyway.
He gets closer to unifying the division while Alverez is tarnished forever in minds of his fight mad compatriots.
True champions don't throw belts away, they fight...
GGG has the belts and every right to stand his ground with nothing to lose. He gets the fight at 160 or he gets the belt anyway.
He gets closer to unifying the division while Alverez is tarnished forever in minds of his fight mad compatriots.
True champions don't throw belts away, they fight...
as per yiliterate's posts on the matter...it's all very complex and i think he's more forgiving than me about fights at catchweight.
.....but for me, if canelo holds the wbc belt at 160lb, he must be prepared to defend it at 160lb.
i know a simplistic hardline stance like that may deprive us of potential match ups.....but where do you draw the line?? too many belts, too many weight divisions.
.....but for me, if canelo holds the wbc belt at 160lb, he must be prepared to defend it at 160lb.
i know a simplistic hardline stance like that may deprive us of potential match ups.....but where do you draw the line?? too many belts, too many weight divisions.
Turquoise said:
Alverez (if he overcomes Khan) needs to do GGG's bidding then or been seen as a quitter.
GGG has the belts and every right to stand his ground with nothing to lose. He gets the fight at 160 or he gets the belt anyway.
He gets closer to unifying the division while Alverez is tarnished forever in minds of his fight mad compatriots.
True champions don't throw belts away, they fight...
All commendable stuff if you believe boxing is a 'pure' sport; but it isn't and realistically never has been. It's grubby and murky and political, which to me makes it impure, yet fascinating as a consequence.GGG has the belts and every right to stand his ground with nothing to lose. He gets the fight at 160 or he gets the belt anyway.
He gets closer to unifying the division while Alverez is tarnished forever in minds of his fight mad compatriots.
True champions don't throw belts away, they fight...
You seem to be coming from the point of view that the belts are everything in this sport. Unfortunately, they aren't...their meaning varies according to the circumstances, and because of that I don't think trying to view the sport from the perspective that titles are the be-all and end-all, and judging actions of fighters accordingly, makes a huge amount of sense. Because of that, I disagree with your assertion Golovkin has 'nothing to lose' by standing his ground. The only way that would be true is if both money and legacy meant zero to Golovkin, and collecting four world Middleweight titles, regardless of circumstances, was the only thing that mattered to him. Of course, I can't speak for Golovkin, but I'd very much doubt that's the case, even if that's the story he's been putting out. On that basis, yes, Golovkin has an enormous amount to lose.
Firstly, money. A fight with Alvarez could earn him more in one night than all his other title fights put together. Alvarez is a big seller and Golovkin-Alvarez is a huge fight. The money is there. More than that, who else is out there, other than the winner of Alvarez-Khan, at either Middle, Light-Middle or Super-Middle who could offer Golovkin anything close to that size of fight? So, from that perspective it is really now or who-knows-when for Golovkin.
Secondly, legacy. Golovkin is a devestating fighter and may go on to unify all four belts and retire undefeated. Phenomenal achievement. But look at his record...who are the opponents and which are the fights by which he'll be remembered? The biggest name on there is probably Daniel Geale. Decent fighter no doubt, but won't exactly have the boxing historians eulogising in 50 years' time! Then it comes to the same point as above...what other big names are there on the horizon for him? The biggest name outside of those two is probably Cotto and we already know that one's not about to happen!
So yes, I think Golovkin has a lot to lose if the fight isn't made...whereas Alvarez is in a different situation. Alvarez already has the big names and big fights on his CV...Mayweather, Cotto, Mosley, Khan to come...and if he goes back down to Light-Middle, has the prospect of adding one or two more from Welterweights stepping up. I'm pretty sure he'll also continue to draw big numbers so the money will be there too. And if he has to give up his current title, well it's not his first belt and probably won't be his last, so not the end of the world...
As to the assertion that true champions don't throw away belts, that's a lovely romanticised notion but not really the reality of the situation. As per the above, belts aren't the be-all and end-all; the importance varies depending on the circumstances. That's why Cotto didn't care one jot about carrying the WBC belt into the fight with Alvarez, that's why Mayweather sent the belt he took off Pacquiao back to the WBO rather than a cheque for the sanctioning fees, that's why Mayweather didn't walk out of the ring carrying the WBA title, despite beating WBA title-holder Shane Mosley at the title weight...
Edited by Yiliterate on Thursday 28th April 09:54
i suppose if you look at it in the context of there being 17 weight divisions and numerous belts in 2016 whereas in henry armstrong's 1930's there were 8 weight divisions with one champion in each...then belts are certainly more watered down than ever before...
i'm afraid i'm a bit of a starry eyed , rose tinted specs kind of fan in that i yearn for the sport of yesteryear but looking at it objectively whatever it takes to get the pair of them in the ring i suppose will do!. better for them two and certainly better for us the fans.
i'm afraid i'm a bit of a starry eyed , rose tinted specs kind of fan in that i yearn for the sport of yesteryear but looking at it objectively whatever it takes to get the pair of them in the ring i suppose will do!. better for them two and certainly better for us the fans.
Turquoise said:
I agree. He's won and holds a middle weight belt, defend it at 160.
Instead of bhing about 5lbs he should be thinking I'm going to beat GGG and I will unify the division, not him.
That's what a true champion would want.
...and still no comment on the Glovkin position!!!Instead of b
hing about 5lbs he should be thinking I'm going to beat GGG and I will unify the division, not him.That's what a true champion would want.
To play devil's advocate, why isn't Golovkin saying, "Well, I came in at 159lbs comfortably last weekend. If it makes the fight, I'll go to 158lbs...so he comes up 3lbs and I go down 2lbs (but actually, only 1lb). I'll still blow him away because I'm awesome, I'll win another title in the ring in front of an audience of millions instead of being sent it in the post, I'll add the scalp of one of the biggest names in the sport to my CV and bag myself more $$$$ than I would know what to do with in the process...oh and because of the profile of the fight, this will probably make me a bona fide PPV star and unlock the door to countless more $$$$, at which point fighters will be beating a path to my door rather than me continuing to fall foul of the risk-reward equation. Finally, I'd have done my bit in making sure the fight that the boxing public desperately wants to see gets made...".
By the way, Golovkin may very well be thinking and saying exactly that in private, just as Alvarez may be thinking/saying what you've written. What you and I see/hear is just the public posturing and positioning; what's going on behind closed doors may be somewhat different...
Edited by Yiliterate on Thursday 28th April 11:57
well i'm glad the wbc have done the decent thing concerning their belt at the very least though......it did look like it was going to be a bit of a stalemate for a while there and while the belt is worth less today than at any point in it's history nobody should be allowed to hold the belt hostage, even if it is a big mexican love-in!
tuscaneer said:
well i'm glad the wbc have done the decent thing concerning their belt at the very least though......it did look like it was going to be a bit of a stalemate for a while there and while the belt is worth less today than at any point in it's history nobody should be allowed to hold the belt hostage, even if it is a big mexican love-in!
Well, credit to the WBC for pushing for their belts to be unified - something the WBA have historically never seemed overly bothered about. But there again, the WBC kinda started this by sanctioning Martinez-Cotto at 159lbs...and then Cotto-Geale at 157lbs...and then Cotto-Alvarez at 155lbs...and then insisting that the winner of that fight must defend against Golovkin next, unless of course you want to fight Khan first, in which case knock yerself out and oh yes happy to sanction that one at 155lbs as well!!! Did I mention politics may play a part in the sport...?! 
it was interesting watching the pbc and the mysterious al haymon come into the sport. but let's be honest....they haven't unified anything.if anything at all ,despite their perceived power they have just added to the mayhem and further fractured what is already a confusing sport for even the die hards....
boxing is far too big a global sport to impose a ufc style model to it. there was no way al haymon was going to come in and do a dana white
as for the wbc.......i'll tell you what,as much as i critisize their jiggery pokery......i wouldn't mind being a dollar behind the sulaiman family!!!
boxing is far too big a global sport to impose a ufc style model to it. there was no way al haymon was going to come in and do a dana white
as for the wbc.......i'll tell you what,as much as i critisize their jiggery pokery......i wouldn't mind being a dollar behind the sulaiman family!!!
Edited by tuscaneer on Thursday 28th April 14:19
Bring on the clowns said:
I don't know why there's so much fuss around Alvarez and his decisions re. GGG. Irrelevant, soon, Khan is going to box rings round him.
You heard it here first!
Well, I don't make Khan favourite going into the fight but I certainly wouldn't put that beyond the realms of possibility! That said, I'm getting slightly concerned about Khan's preparations for this fight, whereby he appears to be looking to match Canelo size-wise rather than following the Mayweather blueprint of coming in closer to his natural fighting weight and maximising his speed and mobility advantages. If he can carry those two facets up with the increased size and strength, he'll be one dangerous fighter, but if he ends up sacrificing one for the other it could be a serious mistake...not least because it may have a lasting impact if he tries going back down to his more natural weight afterwards.You heard it here first!
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